Succesfully fighting two attackers: myth or reality?

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by SpiritFists936
if there is more then one attacker, your chances are slim and none, its not like the movies they all come at you at the same time, and from different directions, the only way you can come out on top is with lots of luck.

Amen Brother. If I was not lucky I would not be here typing

You can train to think about multiple people.

You can train to not stop when two or more people are touching you.

Yet, Luck and intention and awareness are what I find that makes the difference.

:asian:

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Not running away, fighting!

At my age, running away isn't a viable scenario. They'd catch me. Running to a better place to make a stand might be possible, though.

Somebody brought up the different variables concerning this situation. In a one on one fight, there are a ton of them. In this scenario, the variables are multiplied. Size of the attackers, who has what weapons, size of the defender, etc. The list goes on.

I think we should train for the eventuality of a multiple attacker scenario...but only with our eyes open to the very real problems attendant with it.

Some of the younger martial artists out there buy into the myth that its a perfectly acceptable challenge...hey, Bruce, Jackie and Chuck pulled it off, right?

Its a basic rule of war...seek mass in the offensive. Try and have at least three to one in an attack on the enemy. Don't piecemeal the attacks.

In other words...the guy who is outnumbered is in a REALLY bad situation. But again, its not impossible to deal with.

SCS

 

[Titan Uk]

We all train for multiple attackers but when the chips are now you will revert back to primal motor functions if you are not careful.

Try to always be aware of your surroundings and avoid trouble if possible. Don't go looking for it as if will fing you and you will get injuried.
As several of my friends have found out.
Avoid tunnel vision and the red mist, which will cloud your assessment

Any multiple attacker situation you will sustain injuries.

As other have mention if you can get out of that location, they generally choose it for a reason.

Hopeful you will not have to find out but if you do, Good luck.

 

[stickarts]

quite a long time ago, I had 3 guys come after me. I dropped the one that i thought was the main instigator, and fortunately for me, the others changed their minds about coming after me!

 

[hardheadjarhead]

One of my students, long ago when he was young and stupid, and long before I met him, got into a one on four altercation and won by accident. Or luck. Or something.

He was drunk and walking home from a party when the four accosted him. He figured he was going to get stomped, but was going to make the best of it. He hauled back to hit the guy in front of him, and in doing so accidentally poleaxed a guy behind him with his elbow. He then completed the punch, nailing the first guy. The remaining two grabbed their buddies and they fled...apparently they thought he knew what he was doing. He hadn't a clue.

I would have loved to see that one. It sounds like it could have made "America's Funniest Home Videos".

If at first you succeed, try not to look surprised.

SCS

 

[Titan Uk]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
One of my students, long ago when he was young and stupid, and long before I met him, got into a one on four altercation and won by accident. Or luck. Or something.

He was drunk and walking home from a party when the four accosted him. He figured he was going to get stomped, but was going to make the best of it. He hauled back to hit the guy in front of him, and in doing so accidentally poleaxed a guy behind him with his elbow. He then completed the punch, nailing the first guy. The remaining two grabbed their buddies and they fled...apparently they thought he knew what he was doing. He hadn't a clue.

I would have loved to see that one. It sounds like it could have made "America's Funniest Home Videos".

If at first you succeed, try not to look surprised.

SCS

I've seen this happen on a couple of occasions whilst at work. It can work for you but you never know. It is extremely funny when it does happen,

 

[DeLamar.J]

If you are a good fighter, when you land a clean hit on someone they are going down or will be dazed. If your fighting two people you just have to make sure not to miss when you are trying to take out the first guy. You have to take at least one of them out quick and nasty. If not then your in trouble. And your really in trouble if your going up against two fighters who know what they are doing.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by DeLamar.J
If you are a good fighter, when you land a clean hit on someone they are going down or will be dazed. If your fighting two people you just have to make sure not to miss when you are trying to take out the first guy. You have to take at least one of them out quick and nasty. If not then your in trouble. And your really in trouble if your going up against two fighters who know what they are doing.

I don't think I agree with that first statement. regardless of how good of a fighter you are, the person going down is relative not only to you but them as well. Saying that infers that if you do not daze or knock out your opponent the first clean hit, then you are not a good fighter. I think many would disagree with that, including fighters like Bruce Lee or Mohammed Ali maybe?

I do agree you have to take out the first guy as quickly and nasty as possible. I had an encounter with a couple of road ragers who followed me and attacked me outside my car. There was three of them and they cam running up to me. The first guy was several steps in front of the other two, and he took a bubba swing at me. I dil sau, ping choy to the head, then immediatly a nice push kick to the groin. He went down hard and the other guys just grabbed him and took off. I calmly went home and changed my shorts.

7sm

 

[Mark L]

The primary advantage the single defender often (not always, not always!) has is that many times the group has no coodinated plan of attack and may (may, may!) either get in each other's way or hold back in fear of doing so. In this case, the defender may take advantage of this by taking on as few attackers as possible at one time while using said attackers as a blockade against the others (all the while looking to get out of Dodge). IMHO, of course. :asian: [/B]

We practice the multiple attacker scenario every few weeks, and always on test day. We don't reherse the attack. When I'm thugging, I find it uncomfortable to be one of the multiple attackers. Maybe I'm used to one on one too much, and am waiting my turn. I seem to jockey for position, look for a clean shot, etc., not really engaging agressively. It feels like just an all out attack would result in everybody getting in everybody elses way, defeating the purpose. However, if one of my thug friend(s) has engaged the target thoroughly there are often openings for a single shot to end it all. I guess that could be the mindset of the experienced attacker.

 

[DeLamar.J]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I don't think I agree with that first statement. regardless of how good of a fighter you are, the person going down is relative not only to you but them as well. Saying that infers that if you do not daze or knock out your opponent the first clean hit, then you are not a good fighter. I think many would disagree with that, including fighters like Bruce Lee or Mohammed Ali maybe?

I do agree you have to take out the first guy as quickly and nasty as possible. I had an encounter with a couple of road ragers who followed me and attacked me outside my car. There was three of them and they cam running up to me. The first guy was several steps in front of the other two, and he took a bubba swing at me. I dil sau, ping choy to the head, then immediatly a nice push kick to the groin. He went down hard and the other guys just grabbed him and took off. I calmly went home and changed my shorts.

7sm

I should have re phrased that. If you land a clean hit on an avereage thug they will go down.

 

[bob919]

yeh its more than reality. when i was 14 i was jumped by 2 18 yearolds at this time my knowledge of artial arts was just copying jackie chan and i won some how each of them was alot bigger than me one of them picked me up by my jacket and i slammed 3 roudhouse elbows into his temples then he was down the otehr came up and tried to kick me; i aimed a punch at his chin but it hit his throat and he was on the floor gasping.

i was very proud

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by DeLamar.J
I should have re phrased that. If you land a clean hit on an avereage thug they will go down.

Yeah, I guess I see what your saying, and I agree. But, just dont expect them to go down the first hit, because thye may very well not be an average thug.

7sm

 

[Phil Elmore]

I don't think it's possible to generalize in that fashion. Everybody's different.

(Even the "average thug" isn't average -- because that would be a value created by measuring the above-average and below-average thugs and then dividing by the total thugs. )

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
I don't think it's possible to generalize in that fashion. Everybody's different.

(Even the "average thug" isn't average -- because that would be a value created by measuring the above-average and below-average thugs and then dividing by the total thugs. )

Wow, we better not make a habit of this!!

I have to say, we agree again.

7sm

 

[Phil Elmore]

I tend to be quite blunt but I'm really not a jerk. Keep being right and I'll keep agreeing with you.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I should have re phrased that. If you land a clean hit on an avereage thug they will go down.

What is an average thug?

How big is he?

Has the average thug served hard time? What did he learn when he was in there?

Where do we find these average thugs? The streets of Detroit? The hills of Tennessee? A trailer court in Indiana?

Has the average thug ever been hit before? Can he take a shot?


I'm just pointing out a few things to consider here. Lately on the forum I've noted people throwing out absolute statements or blanket generalities to describe how they'd handle someone in a confrontation. The notion of a clean hit on an "average thug" fits that description.

Who is throwing the "clean hit?" Me? You? A sixteen year old female green belt?

I've thrown some VERY hard shots and hit people and they've failed to go down. They've stayed in the fight. I've received some good wallops and was able to stay in the fight myself...and sadly, I've taken a few that put me into Lala land...but I digress. A "clean shot" isn't necessarily going to put anyone down. Sometimes combinations don't.

There was a video out on the net some time back that Burton Richardson showed a bunch of us at a seminar. It was a vid of a street fight taken by a security camera at a bar. A guy delivered THREE full power and essentially perfect headbutts (by my estimate...and I consider myself a minor luminary on this topic) to another guy's face and head...all to no avail. The receiver of these very clean shots stayed in the fight, much to the dismay of his antagonist, I imagine. Adrenaline and willpower make a pretty powerful combination.

I'd say "there are no sure things", but I never use absolutes.

Never.

And I never will again.


Regards,


Steve

 

[loki09789]

Why would I be fighting two or more attackers? Is it a lifestyle risk (work related, or just risky habits - drugs/party crowd/bad choice of friends...)? Am I not sizing up my surrounding well? Am I so stupid/drunk/emotional... that I think it is smart to stay there when it is obvious that I am in the stinky pile?

I am not interested in 'fighting' two or more attackers, I am interested in setting up the situation so I can hit and run or just run!

If I absolutely can not run, it really depends on SO many variables it is hard to generalize, but some basics would be to get the best weapon (gun, brick, car...) and set myself up in the best place based on the terrain and always look for the best chance to get out of there.

I mean really, I have a kid and wife to get home to at this point in my life. Even when I was military/infantry/leo the motto was to work smarter and not harder. Get the job done but remember the purpose that you are trying to accomplish and get it done with the best tactics.

Paul Martin

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by loki09789
Why would I be fighting two or more attackers? Is it a lifestyle risk (work related, or just risky habits - drugs/party crowd/bad choice of friends...)? Am I not sizing up my surrounding well? Am I so stupid/drunk/emotional... that I think it is smart to stay there when it is obvious that I am in the stinky pile?

I had two guys jump in my car and try to basically kill me. I hadn't put myself in the wrong situation, I was driving home from work. Now you could say its my fault because I didn't have my door locked, but I think thats a little faulty logic. There was absolutely nothing I could do to get away, and there was really nothing I could get to as a weapon. Although in that situation with me in the car and two of them on top of me, I don't think I would have tried to produce a weapon since that would mean I would have to stop defending myself and get a weapon that would probably have been taken away from me and used against me.

I'm just trying to show that there are situations beyond your control that can happen and put you in this situation.

7sm

 

[loki09789]

I would never say that it would was your fault that you got jumped, just like I would never say a rape victim asked for it. I would say that locking the doors or all the other little habits that fall under tactical thinking reduce the likelyhood of a successful ambush. I would say that knowing the crime stats of the area can be helpful, or varying your routes when traveling creates some randomness that make you hard to pin down if someone is scouting you (doesn't sound like it in this case).

I got jumped on my way to visit a friend at college years back. I was in the country, in an area I knew well and stopped out of the blue at a convenience store that didn't have a high crime history. I 'fell asleep at the wheel' though because of where I parked in relation to the building when there were smarter places to choose. I didn't help myself because I wasn't paying attention as well as I could have been. I didn't at least register the fact that the two guys were lounging around the place when I went in - that would have helped with the police report for description and ID at the very least.

By weapons I mean anything that you can use quickly in a given situation. Your body/mind is the most accessible and after that it depends on what you have that extends beyond that: guns, rocks, bottles, knives... I meant weapons in the theoretical/conceptual definition.

Like you, I didn't cause the attack, but, at 19 years old, 130 lbs and 5'4" I also didn't do the little things that would have made me a less appealing target. Luckily, I got away with only some bruises and a good scare, but I remember in the moment that I had no interest in 'fighting' them. I had all the passion in the world for getting away very quickly.

The other stuff about lifestyle choices is part of what I think to be the bigger picture of martial arts training: Knowing yourself inside and out honestly and with no illusions. If you - meaning a hypothetical you - were a drug abusing, broke prostitute living in a high crime area then obviously the set up is going to lead to a lot of bad things coming your way. Choices, lifestyle and a healthy mental state can greatly reduce the 'random' violence that people might experience.

If we had total control, I would have won the lottery by now.

Paul Martin

 

[7starmantis]

Good post, however I don't think I can completely buy into the mentality that a person can prevent anything by being completely observative. Don't get me wrong, a majority of bad situations can be prevented by observing and knowing your surroundings, but to look back on situations and think man I could have prevented it by doing this is only hindsight. There are situations that happen that you have no control over and could not have avoided or prevented by any amount of observation.

I am not saying it isn't good to be obervant, or that knowing your surroundings isn't worth much. Quite the contrary, however you can't stop every situation that is going to end up bad. I refuse to live my life in fear. I am of the belief that part of my happiness is not having to worry about locking the doors every time I'm in the car. Don't get me wrong, I do that by habit, but I don't want to have to worry about it. I guess its a mental game I'm talking about, but being observant is wonderful, just don't over fill your head with notions that you can prevent every bad situation from hurting you. Thats why we train in MA in the first place.

7sm