Styles dying out

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Finlay, Sep 9, 2018.

  1. Finlay

    Finlay Green Belt

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    with the progress of time there must have been many styles that have died out. today's rare style is tomorrow's relic or even forgotten style.

    maybe the popularity of MMA which pulls many practitioners to a small handful of styles is adding to this process. I have heard from a few TKD guys that their classes have got much smaller over the years and they attribute this to BJJ and the likes attracting people way from their. for me I have my doubts of the validity of this however that is what they say.

    Also we have the addition of RBSD style systems which give much more to the person seeking self defence than maybe many of the traditional styles can.

    so are styles continuing to die out? if so what styles are dying?
     
  2. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    Styles are the individual unique characteristic of someone or something and is usually shown within performance. They come and go.
    Now Systems - the organized arranged principles, facts, concepts, philosophy and method developed to create/build something that will endure over time tend to remain. Often some systems seem to align, overlap, and merge because they tend to agree on the major principles and methodologies. Take many of the different grappling systems for instance, other than terminology and some rules when used in competition other than a few stylistic differences a lot of them are identical.
     
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  3. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I think it is easy to wax nostalgic over this issue. The truth is yes, systems have died out and will continue to do so while new systems will arise. This is how human culture tends to change and evolve.

    A lot of new systems are repackages of earlier systems, or contain similar or identical techniques and strategies and principles, so perhaps the earlier systems are not truly disappearing. Perhaps they are simply gaining a new format and a new presentation under a different name.

    At any rate, nothing is forever and that might be an ok thing.
     
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  4. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    I prefer the word evolving.
     
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  5. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    I think that's propaganda from the Mma fanboys saying everyone hates traditional martial arts now because of UFC. Well in my experience a lot of martial artists don't know or care about mma. I still see Kung fu schools or karate and taekwondo schools that are very full. Not everyone wants to fight hard and get hurt. In my Krav Maga class there's a number of people who have said if th club was all about hard sparring they'd quit because they don't want to go work beat up or not be able to play with their kids because they've got broken ribs.
     
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  6. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    My TKD school continues to grow. We have 10 different classes based on belt/age, with 15-25 people per class. We're almost at the point where we either need to turn people away, extend our schedule, expand to a second location, or move to a bigger location.

    So it's not a universal problem for TKD.
     
  7. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    The problem is people like Joe rogan constantly saying how UFC proved every other style is ineffective which is simply not true
     
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  8. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Naw, I don't think tma is going anywhere.

    It's true that many, like myself, have mostly abandoned the idea that there is secret deadly hidden wisdom in forms and katas for a more modern approach, but at the same time there will always be people that do it for other reasons. The cerimony, the costumes, the structure, the aesthetic, the social aspect or... because they still believe there is secret deadly hidden wisdom in those katas and forms.
     
  9. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Who is Joe Rogan?
     
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  10. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    When knife, spear, and arrow are used in battle field, The heavy armor is useful. When bullet can go through heavy armor, nobody wear heavy armor any more. But if that heavy armor can stop bullet, It will exist forever.

    If a Taiji master can go to UFC and beat up everybody, Taiji will not die out. One good Taiji fighter is all we need.
     
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  11. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    If a Taiji practitioner can use his taiji skills to successfully defend himself, AND he is able to effectively teach those skills to someone else who can then also effectively defend himself with those skills, then taiji will not die out.

    This has nothing whatsoever to do with UFC.

    Here is the thing tho, and this is not limited to taiji: the next generation may make some changes to the methodology into something that they feel is a more effective training methodology. This is as it should be. Every generation should make alterations if those alterations will make the training more effective.

    After some generations, it is possible that the downstream methodology does not resemble taiji (or whatever system) as it was in the past. It might even be appropriate to identify it as a different system, or not. That depends on many factors.

    That’s life. Nothing remains the same forever. Not every methodology or every approach to training works equally well for every person. So we all strive to do the best we can get with what we have. If we learn something better, or if we have an insight to make changes that work better for us, then we should do that. And if we teach the method, then we need to teach it to the best of our understanding and that includes any insights or changes that we have made. Our downstream lineage will reflect those changes IF the next generation also finds the method effective.
     
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  12. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    There is just more competition out there these days. And so harder for a system to make it's way.

    If you do want to make the MMA comparison bear in mind you are also looking at gyms that train 6 days a week with multiple systems and separate expert coaches.

    Just the access to facilities is becoming competitive. I heard of one opening up that is 24hr and has 24hr access to Thai pad holders. So 3am you want to rock in there will be a guy there to hold pads for you.

    The individual clubs and styles are doing surprisingly well considering.
     
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  13. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    And with that over the years the openness of more and more schools, clubs, gyms to visiting martial artists has grown tremendously. Back in the 70s and even up to in the early 2000s when traveling and attempting to visit other schools I was turn away more than being allow to train. Today I very seldom get turned away as a visitor when traveling and just finding a place to possibly train is far easier.
     
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  14. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    A taiji isn't going to beat up everyone, a boxer isn't going to beat up everyone, a jiu jitsu guy won't beat up everyone. That's the point for Mma competition you need more than 1 style
     
  15. dvcochran

    dvcochran 3rd Black Belt

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    Totally agree with most of what everyone said.
    In the spirit of the thread, can you think of any specific MA styles/stems that are no longer around?
     
  16. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    I haven’t seen any Monkey Kung Fu in a long time. And I’m glad.
     
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  17. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    My CI and several others with his amount of experience told me back in the early 70s when he started, there were two schools in the area - a judo school and a Kyokushin school. And they were in the same building - judo on the first floor, Kyokushin on the second. And they’d periodically go upstairs and downstairs to train together. Those were the only two options.

    As they grew and the students got up in rank, some of the seniors started opening branch dojos. At one point, the head Kyokushin guy was testing over 1,000 students at a time (not all together, but the total number over the course of a weekend).

    Then other MAs started trickling in. Now we’ve got quite a few styles, organizations, and dojos. The area I live has about 1.25 million people. Obviously that number has grown significantly over the decades, but there are far more dojos per capita now than back then. If you’ve got 1 million people looking for MA training and 10 dojos, you’ll have very good numbers. If you’ve got the same million people and 10,000 dojos, there’s obviously going to be less people in each dojo.

    People have far more choices nowadays. The more choices, the more each individual place is going to be a small fish in a big pond.
     
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  18. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I believe it is safe to assume that many combat systems have disappeared over generations. Perhaps not all had names or were systammatically organized, but people all over the world and throughout history have been fighting each other and developing their methods for doing so.

    For example, I would suggest that the combat methods of the Comanches and Apaches and Aztecs and Toltecs are no longer practiced and have been forgotten. Likewise I suggest that many systems from Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Americas have disappeared.
     
  19. dvcochran

    dvcochran 3rd Black Belt

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    I agree. Just wondered if anyone knew specific names so they could be researched.
     
  20. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I do not have an answer to that.
     

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