Style for stand up grappling?

[drop bear]

And if you're too preoccupied with taking a guy to the ground, you can be more open to getting your head knocked off.

It is not even close to as simple as that.

Ok. so the biggest risk for grapplers is shooting in from too far away.

The biggest risk for stikers is ineffective punching. Which is punches that dont make the grappler back up or fall down pretty much.

The issue is the dynamics of pure striking winds up like this.

So you strike. They shell up you keep striking which creates an opening wich gives you scoring punches. Which is effective for striking.

But the issue for grapplers is distance which you have just solved for them. So while you may think you are making headway towards those effective third and fourth shots that are the money strikes. You are opening yourself up for a take down.

Like tie ups in boxing. The best range for a takedown is about when the striker is in the best position.

It is solved by as soon as they shell up. You exit out. But that is counter to striking order of priorities. So people can forget to do it. So it is not really the same sort of effective striking that works in a striking only fight that is effective striking for grappling.

There is also different ranges and stuff but that is a different issue.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

One of the problems I have with the sparring (and it's a question I will ask my Master when I get a chance) is that when we spar, it's two hapkido guys grabbing each other's wrist. So if I grab my opponents wrist, he will break my grip and grab my wrist...then I will break his grip and grab his wrist...and then he will break my grip and grab my wrist...and you probably see where this is going.

Why are you just grabbing wrists? Is that a key element of all your offensive moves? If so, do you train methods for not letting your opponent break your grip once you have the grab? That should be an important feature of your training if your attacks are all built on grabbing the wrist.

 

[drop bear]

Why are you just grabbing wrists? Is that a key element of all your offensive moves? If so, do you train methods for not letting your opponent break your grip once you have the grab? That should be an important feature of your training if your attacks are all built on grabbing the wrist.

Honestly attack the wrist from the shoulder down. It is easier to grab.

 

[skribs]

Why are you just grabbing wrists? Is that a key element of all your offensive moves? If so, do you train methods for not letting your opponent break your grip once you have the grab? That should be an important feature of your training if your attacks are all built on grabbing the wrist.

Well that's part of the problem, is that so far most of what we do are defensive moves and most of those are different arm grabs.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well that's part of the problem, is that so far most of what we do are defensive moves and most of those are different arm grabs.

That's a problem self-defense oriented training can suffer. We tend to start with possible/probable attacks that are easy to defend (beginners' stuff), and sometimes we stay on it too long.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Well that's part of the problem, is that so far most of what we do are defensive moves and most of those are different arm grabs.

If you don’t know how to attack, then it’s hard to do effective sparring. I’ll go further and say that if you don’t have training partners who know how to attack effectively then you are unlikely to develop strong defensive skills.

 

[skribs]

If you don’t know how to attack, then it’s hard to do effective sparring. I’ll go further and say that if you don’t have training partners who know how to attack effectively then you are unlikely to develop strong defensive skills.

I think part of the problem is that we didn't really have an attacker/defender. We both tend to play defensively. We were both trying not to get taken down more than we were trying to get the takedown.

 

[drop bear]

I think part of the problem is that we didn't really have an attacker/defender. We both tend to play defensively. We were both trying not to get taken down more than we were trying to get the takedown.

Which is why grappling sports have engagement rules.

 

[skribs]

Which is why grappling sports have engagement rules.

At this point, I'm not worried. We teach more defensive stuff at the lower belts and the higher belts (than I am now) learn the offensive stuff. The thing to keep in mind is that Hapkido is basically an elective at my Taekwondo school, so we aren't really getting a complete picture (i.e. we don't train any kicks or hand strikes, because most of us are also in the Taekwondo class).

If I'm a red or black belt and I haven't figured it out, at that point I'll be worried.

 

[drop bear]

At this point, I'm not worried. We teach more defensive stuff at the lower belts and the higher belts (than I am now) learn the offensive stuff. The thing to keep in mind is that Hapkido is basically an elective at my Taekwondo school, so we aren't really getting a complete picture (i.e. we don't train any kicks or hand strikes, because most of us are also in the Taekwondo class).

If I'm a red or black belt and I haven't figured it out, at that point I'll be worried.

The concept is you don't learn defensive stuff unless someone is attacking you.

You don't learn in real time unless the person attacking you has some sort of clue as to what he is doing.

So if you say shortened the rounds, gave the guy say 30seconds to put you on the deck.

You will get attacked like you have stolen the guys cake. Then you will defend as if you actually had to put some work in to it.

If both of you attack. Then both of you have to defend from less desirable position.

I can shell up and run all day. That is easy. Defending his move after countering mine is where the hard work comes in.

If you recall my "generalization" about throwing a ball at a target.

If all you do is defend then you are making that target larger and closer. So although it appears that you are becoming better at throwing a ball. It is mostly illusion.

(This applies to every single karate guy everywhere including Gpseymors friends and possibly his dog as well)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Which is why grappling sports have engagement rules.

In one Chinese wrestling tournament during the championship fight, both persons played defense and afraid to attack. Both persons got dis-qualified. The 3rd place became the 1st palace and the 4th place became the 2nd place.

Chinese wrestling encourage those who attacks and loses than those who defends and wins. Yu will never be able to develop a hip throw if you are afraid to attack.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

We teach more defensive stuff at the lower belts and the higher belts (than I am now) learn the offensive stuff.

The Chinese wrestling uses an opposite approach. Most students won't learn any defense in the first 3 years. Students are encouraged to attack, attack, and still attack.

Here is a guy who has attacking spirit. He doesn't wait for opportunity. He creates opportunity.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The Chinese wrestling uses an opposite approach. Most students won't learn any defense in the first 3 years. Students are encouraged to attack, attack, and still attack.

Here is a guy who has attacking spirit. He doesn't wait for opportunity. He creates opportunity.

Yup. That's what I've learned in grappling, fencing and striking. Waiting around to defend (unless there's a specific purpose), just means you'll eventually get caught. Probably quickly since the other person doesn't have to worry about defending. Trying to attack is how you learn the skills, especially in the first year or two.

 

[zzj]

Tai chi of the Chen variety

 

[Gerry Seymour]

(This applies to every single karate guy everywhere including Gpseymors friends and possibly his dog as well)

Only if your assumptions about their training are correct. That's the part you missed.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yup. That's what I've learned in grappling, fencing and striking. Waiting around to defend (unless there's a specific purpose), just means you'll eventually get caught. Probably quickly since the other person doesn't have to worry about defending. Trying to attack is how you learn the skills, especially in the first year or two.

This is a common weakness in "softer" arts (IME, the "aiki" arts are a good example of this happening). The philosophy of the art can interfere with the learning, if it's allowed to override good training.

 

[wab25]

I study Danzan Ryu, which is very similar to Hapkido. There are lots of wrist locks, we like to finish our throws standing... (the arts are actually very similar) If you go to some older forums, you can find my posts talking about the merits of wrist locks and remaining on my feet when throwing. Then, something happened. I moved from California to Florida... there is no Danzan Ryu in Florida.

I started training MMA and BJJ. I learned some really interesting things. First, all those wrist locks we learned they don't work. After I accepted that, I thought I would try some of my throws. The guy was bigger than me, and had a bunch of MMA experience, so I didn't worry about him taking the fall. I set it up, stepped in and threw him perfectly. He went right over my hip, both feet way off the ground... No body told him he was supposed to let go of me. We weren't even wearing gis. He held onto my arm and waist as he went over, I hit the mat right after he did and he rolled right on top. Remember how I said he was bigger and had a bunch of MMA experience? It sucked to be me getting my perfect throw. (I got the feeling he did not appreciate the throw very much... )

I had to go back and figure out how much of my time did I waste, learning this DZR stuff that didn't work. I am going to skip ahead here, but this process took a while, don't over look that time. But, I finally realized that it was not the art but me and how I trained. I had done very little pressure testing and very little time rolling compared with other arts. (the real sad part is that Okazaki did lots of randori and took style vs style fights over in Hawaii)

First, look at your wrist locks. You grab the other guy, and he escapes. If you are like me, you grabbed his wrist put it in a lock and stood there statically expecting a result, thats how we practiced it. Then he escaped. Lesson one, move your feet. Get your grab, and apply your lock, but listen where he is going and move your feet to keep you in the right position. Lesson two, listen to those wrestling, MMA, BJJ and Judo guys... they will teach you how to grab an arm, an elbow or a wrist from an opponent. From there, you can find your wrist lock, arm lock... sometimes. Here is the big one though. You grabbed him and he escaped. The important part is that you made him respond to you. You took the initiative. Look at how they escape and counter... its setting them up for another of your attacks. Learn how to counter the counters. Also learn that you don't have to succeed with a technique for the technique to succeed. If all you do with your grab is upset his structure and balance, before he escaped... thats quite a bit actually. In the end, I got better at getting my DZR wrist locks... though they are not near 100%. What did become 100% is I can use them to take the initiative and set up some openings. (sometimes I can even go through those openings... ) Lastly, just because you learned it standing up, does not mean it does not work on the ground. Or with a different limb.

For throwing... I still think that its best to remain standing after. You can move on to the next guy, run away or choose between many different finishes as he is going down. But, in the real world, its really hard to do. So, while I still practice for that, I always expect to be taken down with the throw. I have spent time learning to go with it and respond accordingly. Whats interesting is that my throws have gotten better, after accepting a more realistic view of whats going to happen. I have also gotten a few in sparring, where I remained on my feet. The key to that, was having been dragged down by so many of my throws, that I was able to feel what I needed to do to remain standing... if that makes sense.

The best thing I ever did for my DZR training... was to have some guys beat the crap out of me. It changed my view of what I was learning. It changed my expectations. It changed how I practiced and applied my arts. I believe, it brought me closer to how DZR is supposed to be. I would highly recommend that folks get out of the house, and go find different styles to kick your butt. The different styles will break you in different ways. But if you take the time to figure out what happened... and look into your art, you may learn some really cool things about your art. You may even get better at it. Worst case is all you get are some really cool friends to train with.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I study Danzan Ryu, which is very similar to Hapkido. There are lots of wrist locks, we like to finish our throws standing... (the arts are actually very similar) If you go to some older forums, you can find my posts talking about the merits of wrist locks and remaining on my feet when throwing. Then, something happened. I moved from California to Florida... there is no Danzan Ryu in Florida.

I started training MMA and BJJ. I learned some really interesting things. First, all those wrist locks we learned they don't work. After I accepted that, I thought I would try some of my throws. The guy was bigger than me, and had a bunch of MMA experience, so I didn't worry about him taking the fall. I set it up, stepped in and threw him perfectly. He went right over my hip, both feet way off the ground... No body told him he was supposed to let go of me. We weren't even wearing gis. He held onto my arm and waist as he went over, I hit the mat right after he did and he rolled right on top. Remember how I said he was bigger and had a bunch of MMA experience? It sucked to be me getting my perfect throw. (I got the feeling he did not appreciate the throw very much... )

I had to go back and figure out how much of my time did I waste, learning this DZR stuff that didn't work. I am going to skip ahead here, but this process took a while, don't over look that time. But, I finally realized that it was not the art but me and how I trained. I had done very little pressure testing and very little time rolling compared with other arts. (the real sad part is that Okazaki did lots of randori and took style vs style fights over in Hawaii)

First, look at your wrist locks. You grab the other guy, and he escapes. If you are like me, you grabbed his wrist put it in a lock and stood there statically expecting a result, thats how we practiced it. Then he escaped. Lesson one, move your feet. Get your grab, and apply your lock, but listen where he is going and move your feet to keep you in the right position. Lesson two, listen to those wrestling, MMA, BJJ and Judo guys... they will teach you how to grab an arm, an elbow or a wrist from an opponent. From there, you can find your wrist lock, arm lock... sometimes. Here is the big one though. You grabbed him and he escaped. The important part is that you made him respond to you. You took the initiative. Look at how they escape and counter... its setting them up for another of your attacks. Learn how to counter the counters. Also learn that you don't have to succeed with a technique for the technique to succeed. If all you do with your grab is upset his structure and balance, before he escaped... thats quite a bit actually. In the end, I got better at getting my DZR wrist locks... though they are not near 100%. What did become 100% is I can use them to take the initiative and set up some openings. (sometimes I can even go through those openings... ) Lastly, just because you learned it standing up, does not mean it does not work on the ground. Or with a different limb.

For throwing... I still think that its best to remain standing after. You can move on to the next guy, run away or choose between many different finishes as he is going down. But, in the real world, its really hard to do. So, while I still practice for that, I always expect to be taken down with the throw. I have spent time learning to go with it and respond accordingly. Whats interesting is that my throws have gotten better, after accepting a more realistic view of whats going to happen. I have also gotten a few in sparring, where I remained on my feet. The key to that, was having been dragged down by so many of my throws, that I was able to feel what I needed to do to remain standing... if that makes sense.

The best thing I ever did for my DZR training... was to have some guys beat the crap out of me. It changed my view of what I was learning. It changed my expectations. It changed how I practiced and applied my arts. I believe, it brought me closer to how DZR is supposed to be. I would highly recommend that folks get out of the house, and go find different styles to kick your butt. The different styles will break you in different ways. But if you take the time to figure out what happened... and look into your art, you may learn some really cool things about your art. You may even get better at it. Worst case is all you get are some really cool friends to train with.

I've gone through a similar process of review on my Nihon Goshin Aikido training (which, by your description, sounds pretty similar). I had prior Judo experience, so the idea of being taken down at the end of your own throw wasn't new, but it's something I didn't get to experience much in my NGA training (prior to starting my own program). I had to go seek it out, as you did. With a little training, it's not that difficult to flow with the end of a throw (when the uke doesn't let go) and use it to your advantage. If I get pulled down at the end of a hip throw, I roll with it (almost literally) and use the momentum to gain a dominant position (using the BJJ principle for ground work) then either execute something from there, or get to an escape. I've also made changes to the "classical" forms in NGA to better account for the possibility of uke not letting go.

As you say, it's something that takes some work, and not all schools (or even organizations) do it. I'm trying to put it in there from day one (well, okay, from the first day of throwing, a few weeks after day one), so my students don't have to take the longer route you and I did.