Story I

[OnlyAnEgg]

The student and the master sat in the sand. The student looked to his teacher and asked, 'Sensei, when I asked you how I could find love, you told me to learn to stop hating. Why is that the answer?'.

The teacher did not remove his gaze from the ocean. He replied, 'To obtain the summit, one must be at the bottom of the mountain'.

 

[terryl965]

As always Egg I love these stories.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

As always Egg I love these stories.

Thank you kindly. :asian:

 

[thardey]

Is this like a Koan? Do we get to discuss it, or leave it as art?

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Is this like a Koan? Do we get to discuss it, or leave it as art?

You may do as you would like

It was pointed out that my 'koans' are not really koans. Agreeing with this assessment, I posted this as a story. I feel it's quite discussable, actually

 

[thardey]

Well then, let's get to it!

The student and the master sat in the sand. The student looked to his teacher and asked, 'Sensei, when I asked you how I could find love, you told me to learn to stop hating. Why is that the answer?'.

The teacher did not remove his gaze from the ocean. He replied, 'To obtain the summit, one must be at the bottom of the mountain'.

Since I consider hate to be a by-product of love, not the opposite, I would say that one has to understand love before one can master hate. In that case, the foundation of the mountain is love, with the goal (the summit) to be able to control and properly use your hate.

 

[Lisa]

Well then, let's get to it!



Since I consider hate to be a by-product of love, not the opposite, I would say that one has to understand love before one can master hate. In that case, the foundation of the mountain is love, with the goal (the summit) to be able to control and properly use your hate.

Interesting look at things.

I, however, see the mountain as all of the "hate" we have in life. All our trial and tribulations. All our lessons we need to learn to become that person that can love. We climb it to reach the top. The summit, to me, is the pinnacle of my life, the love and acceptance I have found with my partner, family and friends.

 

[John Brewer]

Very interesting stuff I consider hate to be the absence of Love. To me the mountain symbolizes the fact that sometimes we need to hit bottom before we realize what is really important. Thanks for posting it!

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Well then, let's get to it!

Since I consider hate to be a by-product of love, not the opposite, I would say that one has to understand love before one can master hate. In that case, the foundation of the mountain is love, with the goal (the summit) to be able to control and properly use your hate.

Quite an interesting interpretation! I would not have percieved the story in this manner; but, that's the joy of it all: perception!

I, however, see the mountain as all of the "hate" we have in life. All our trial and tribulations. All our lessons we need to learn to become that person that can love. We climb it to reach the top. The summit, to me, is the pinnacle of my life, the love and acceptance I have found with my partner, family and friends.

Niiice...and a bit closer to my basis for the dialogue.

Very interesting stuff I consider hate to be the absence of Love. To me the mountain symbolizes the fact that sometimes we need to hit bottom before we realize what is really important. Thanks for posting it!

And another nice spin on the tale.

As I mentioned, the beauty of these posts are seeing the various interpretations. The stories are simple enough, much like a horoscope, to strike a chord in each of us and bring to mind something in our experiences that equates to or echoes from the story.

Thank you

 

[thardey]

Very interesting stuff I consider hate to be the absence of Love. To me the mountain symbolizes the fact that sometimes we need to hit bottom before we realize what is really important. Thanks for posting it!

I know I have a unique perspective on this, but I consider apathy to be the absence of love. Hate is born out of the fear of losing/hurting what we love. Or, put another way, we hate what causes pain to loved ones. You can't truly know what hate is until you're faced with the destruction of a relationship with someone you truly love.

Most of the time, however, it is self-love that motivates hate (this is more common, since most people love themselves more than others). People are afraid of the pain that hurts the one they love most in their life (themselves), and attack the source of that pain, usually embodied in a specific person, or a type of person. Hate born out of selfishness, or love of self alone, is what causes great evil.

 

[Nomad]

I know I have a unique perspective on this, but I consider apathy to be the absence of love. Hate is born out of the fear of losing/hurting what we love. Or, put another way, we hate what causes pain to loved ones. You can't truly know what hate is until you're faced with the destruction of a relationship with someone you truly love.

Agreed. The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. Love and hate are closely linked, in a perverse fashion, which helps explain how love can easily turn to hate in breakups or divorces.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

I find it interesting, this analysis of opposites.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Very interesting stuff I consider hate to be the absence of Love. To me the mountain symbolizes the fact that sometimes we need to hit bottom before we realize what is really important. Thanks for posting it!

Consider this thought from Taoism:

Without ugliness there can be no beauty
Without hate there can be no love

It is not so much a case of these being opposed but without one the other becomes unrecognisable.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Consider this thought from Taoism:

Without ugliness there can be no beauty
Without hate there can be no love

It is not so much a case of these being opposed but without one the other becomes unrecognisable.

I think opposition is the key here; but, not in the sense of definition, as Tao suggests. It's more Pauli Exclusionesque.

 

[marlon]

Agreed. The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. Love and hate are closely linked, in a perverse fashion, which helps explain how love can easily turn to hate in breakups or divorces.

perhaps learn to let go of fear is closer to my thinking. Indiffernce can be a kind of hate in itself..or would that be fear.

marlon

 

[Live True]

Without ugliness there can be no beauty
Without hate there can be no love
It is not so much a case of these being opposed but without one the other becomes unrecognisable.

There are many tales of people who live in paradise and do not know it because they have nothing to compare it to. I believe our trials and tribulations are lessons and bases for comparison. The ugliness of a littered roadway helps me appreciate my modest garden and land all the more.

As for the wonderful tale, how can you reach the summit if you are already there (whether you know it or not)? How do you know it is something to seek if it is not within your sight as a far reaching goal?
So you must be at the bottom of the mountain to see the destination as a worthy goal.

I believe hate is a perversion of love, as it is usually very selfishly based. So to truly love something for all it is, without judgement or requirements, requires a total abandonment of hate and selfish motives. A noble aspiration, but attainable?

 

[thardey]

There are many tales of people who live in paradise and do not know it because they have nothing to compare it to. I believe our trials and tribulations are lessons and bases for comparison. The ugliness of a littered roadway helps me appreciate my modest garden and land all the more.

As for the wonderful tale, how can you reach the summit if you are already there (whether you know it or not)? How do you know it is something to seek if it is not within your sight as a far reaching goal?
So you must be at the bottom of the mountain to see the destination as a worthy goal.

And you have to be at the bottom of the correct mountain. Starting at the base of one mountain will never help you reach the top of another.

I believe hate is a perversion of love, as it is usually very selfishly based. So to truly love something for all it is, without judgement or requirements, requires a total abandonment of hate and selfish motives. A noble aspiration, but attainable?

I think this is very true when the hate is directed at other people.

But can you hate a disease? Emotionally we have a fear and sadness about disease, but by our actions, in trying to eliminate it, aren't we showing hate for it? I'll admit, I hate cancer, I hate Alzheimer's, I hate strokes, and the like. I hate the fear and poverty that drives people to kill each other over stuff. My heroes are the people who are working to destroy these things.

I hate lies, I hate selfishness, I hate mistrust. I hate those things that destroy relationships. I absolutely hate abuse, whether sexual, physical, or emotional. They destroy people from the inside out.

I am quite full of hate, actually, now that I think of it. But God help me if I begin to aim that hate at people. Then I will become a part of the things I hate in this world.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Here's where the story came from:

My ex-wife (mother of my girls one) and I have ALWAYS disliked, distrusted and distempered each other. It's been non-stop head-to-head since we separated. Why is not important.

This constant confrontation has always worn me down and weighed heavily on my children, as well.

When my second wife (mother of none of my children, sworn enemy of wife 1) and I split up, i had time to consider my circumstances. I could no longer live with this anger and hatred; so, I opted to simply forgive wife 1 for her transgressions. I began to respond to her in non-confrontational ways. Ultimately, the change in my perception caused a change in hers (over years, mind you). I dissolved my hate, you see, and recieved, for my troubles, a degree of peace (or, in the parable's words, love).

It recently occurred to me that no amount of confrontation would've resolved our issues or changed our dynamic. My choice to forgive cleared my part of the field, as it were. I started over. I was at the bottom of the mountain.

This is just the origin of the story. It, in NO sense, minimizes the interpretations posted here. In fact, it's only my interpretation.

I feel that the story represents a truth. Discovering a truth does not provide ownership.

 

[John Brewer]

So I guess you could say you have to have been at the top and the bottom of the mountain to realize there is a difference?

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

My idea was that, in order to achieve relative calm in the situation between my wife and I (the summit) I had to clear away and begin a new approach (the bottom).