Sport vs. Street

[FriedRice]

Folks that don't think fitness plays an important part in SD have never been in a serious altercation. Physical fitness has an important role in mitigating injury as well. One does not have to be a world class tri-athlete to successfully defend themselves, but it is a component of proper preparedness.

50 burpees with no push-ups in 2 minutes. Go.

 

[Martial_Kumite]

50 burpees with no push-ups in 2 minutes. Go.

Wouldn't it be more effective with pushups? Or is that Olympic level?

 

[FriedRice]

Agreed. Just as there is an inherent disconnect when TMA and MMA confuse what they do with actual SD. Fortunately, there are cops, TMA and MMA that DO know what SD actually is and how to separate it from what is not.

Lots of Cops, Feds, Secret Service, Marines, Rangers, other soldiers, etc. roll in to our gym to train because they needed better training for H2H. If all they had was their training from their perspective dept., then they're about an above average White Belt.

 

[FriedRice]

No you don't. You don't have the first clue. If you did you wouldn't be making such statements.

.

I answered your questions, but you're still dodging mine. I was right about you and your type

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Yes to all and more...ie. quick drawing at the range, that allows me to. And we train for real, not larping.

Do you include sparring at full power to KO your partners as apart of your training?

I seriously doubt you train with half of what I listed above, if any at all.

Do we train full power? Hmmm, let's see...

We pick up a partner at the 3yd line in a fireman's carry and run with them on our back (because they are simulating that they're injured), drawing from concealment, chambering a round off the belt and engaging multiple targets live fire.

Or

Firing while someone has gotten behind you and is trying to choke you out while you fight them off AND still engage the forward threat live fire.

Or

Being jumped in a dark parking lot and having to use whatever is available (hands, conventional or improvised weapon) to survive the attack. Obviously we aren't going to shoot or cut someone in such a scenario (if weapons are used) but actual edged weapons training is conducted as well as actual firearms retention defense. Can it get bloody? Yes. Is it real? As real as one can possibly get while still maintaining a margin of safety that is acceptable to all students involved.

Does a beginner start at this level? No. Like anything else they have to work their way up in experience and skill. But the majority of my students aren't beginners. And all of my teaching certifications are advanced instructor-only courses. Not patting myself on the back but I've earned what I've earned and I've taught over a 1000 high liability professionals as well as private citizens. And the training has successfully allowed them to avoid and attack or survive one that couldn't be avoided on multiple occasions (I keep a data base) including attempted rape, aggravated battery, road rage and other incidents. Been training for 41 years and teaching for over 31 years.

 

[FriedRice]

Wouldn't it be more effective with pushups? Or is that Olympic level?

Push ups too, no doubt, but this is just another form of exercise to change things up. Burpees are excellent for explosiveness. 50 in 2 mins is not easy. Then 30 sec rest, and do another 50 in 2 mins. This is usually the last part of our warmup.

 

[FriedRice]

I have done impact training with my school. Bacicly, we take turns hitting each other (Not in the head, sorry) and learn how to take a hit, case we are not able to defend from all attacks. Now, this is training with empty hand and is not applicable to flights with sharp objects, but it does help keep us from getting the wind knocked out of us.
It is fun, until you do it wrong.

That's good. You may be going harder than Koo Do there since he won't answer this question. Why don't you try sparring hard to the body only. It doesn't rack the brain and pretty safe.

 

[Martial_Kumite]

That's good. You may be going harder than Koo Do there since he won't answer this question. Why don't you try sparring hard to the body only. It doesn't rack the brain and pretty safe.

I will have to try that. The main problem is is that the majority of people that would be willing to, or have a rank high enough, are quite larger than I am. It might make it more effective, but then again I don't want a bruised rib on accident.

 

[Martial_Kumite]

I will have to try that. The main problem is is that the majority of people that would be willing to, or have a rank high enough, are quite larger than I am. It might make it more effective, but then again I don't want a bruised rib on accident.

When we did the impact training, I had an opponent that was stronger than me, but we had a set of moves that were used. It wasn't exactly free form. Full impact though.

 

[FriedRice]

I seriously doubt you train with half of what I listed above, if any at all.

Well I do and more, so you're a hypocrite for doing exactly what you complained about me earlier for making assumptions.

Do we train full power? Hmmm, let's see...

We pick up a partner at the 3yd line in a fireman's carry and run with them on our back (because they are simulating that they're injured), drawing from concealment, chambering a round off the belt and engaging multiple targets live fire.

Only 3 yards? That's it? This is part of a routine, BJJ warmup for at least 10x the distance. And this is only like 1 of 7-10 warmup exercises before the real training starts. Obviously we can't play Rambo with live rounds in a gym though.

Or

Firing while someone has gotten behind you and is trying to choke you out while you fight them off AND still engage the forward threat live fire.

Sounds like BJJ Lite with a gun, shooting at paper.

Or

Being jumped in a dark parking lot and having to use whatever is available (hands, conventional or improvised weapon) to survive the attack. Obviously we aren't going to shoot or cut someone in such a scenario (if weapons are used) but actual edged weapons training is conducted as well as actual firearms retention defense. Can it get bloody? Yes. Is it real? As real as one can possibly get while still maintaining a margin of safety that is acceptable to all students involved.

If no one's getting stabbed for real, then it's just larping. If I'm not allowed to KO anyone with my fists, feet, knees, elbows, etc... then it's just larping again.

Does a beginner start at this level? No. Like anything else they have to work their way up in experience and skill. But the majority of my students aren't beginners. And all of my teaching certifications are advanced instructor-only courses. Not patting myself on the back but I've earned what I've earned and I've taught over a 1000 high liability professionals as well as private citizens. And the training has successfully allowed them to avoid and attack or survive one that couldn't be avoided on multiple occasions (I keep a data base) including attempted rape, aggravated battery, road rage and other incidents. Been training for 41 years and teaching for over 31 years.

That's awesome that you can make money training people this.

Yet, you still haven't answered my specific, SIMPLE question of:

"Do you include sparring at full power to KO your partners as apart of your training?"

so I think you can add "diversion" as apart of your repertoire.

 

[jobo]

What if it is not directly to the skull and more of impacts on the jaw? Would a MA or MMA background and training help?

I dont think so, I cant see any mechanism that allows the brain to adapt its self to be more resistant to violent impact. You can certainly raise your pain thresh hold so that it doesn't hurt as much. But if you wack someone on the head with a big piece of wood every day. I cant see any way that this would ever lead to you not knocking them out

 

[FriedRice]

I will have to try that. The main problem is is that the majority of people that would be willing to, or have a rank high enough, are quite larger than I am. It might make it more effective, but then again I don't want a bruised rib on accident.

Start at lower power then. Body only sparring, trains you for aggression and forces you to stay & fight in close range. Boxing has this drill called the "telephone booth" drill for this purpose. Koo Do probably doesn't believe this, but it's true.

 

[Steve]

 

[Martial_Kumite]

Yep... It sure did.

 

[FriedRice]

What if it is not directly to the skull and more of impacts on the jaw? Would a MA or MMA background and training help?

I agree with Jobo on this. Your head gets weaker and more susceptible to being concussed easier with more hard blows to it throughout the years. I don't think that you'd build resistance to it....just getting more used to head shots. I would def. get good headgear (so none of that cheap Karate foam joints at $20)..something around $100-130 is good). But it's still not a clear cut answer about headgear being the best idea neither, but in the beginning at medium power only, I'd say wear them.

The jaw will KO you much easier. When I get hit in the jaw with a good shot from even a 15 year old girl that's going full power, it sends a throbbing pain up the top of my head and the pain stays there. The jawline is probably the best area to cause a KO, with the best being under or around the chin. The temples are good too, but that needs more force.

So while I tout that sparring hard is the highest level of training, it's still a high risk for such skillset and that these skills may never even needed using in a decent area of civilized society. But many of us still take these risks to our heads, b/c we enjoy fighting. Just like dudes going around play fighting while shooting off live rounds at paper targets.....high risks, but mostly due to the risks of accidentally getting fatally shot by the other larpers.

 

[FriedRice]

Still larping, but any takers?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Well I do and more, so you're a hypocrite for doing exactly what you complained about me earlier for making assumptions.

I see we can add reading comprehension to your already impressive list of skills

I said I've based my comments on the ridiculous video in your OP as well as your statements. You don't have a clue what SD training actually entails.

Only 3 yards?

Ah no, there's the reading comprehension failing you again. I said they were picked up AT the 3 yrd line. You'd have to know what a firing range looks like though to understand the difference.

Obviously we can't play Rambo with live rounds in a gym though.

Which means you have limited your training to the gym. Pity.

Sounds like BJJ Lite with a gun, shooting at paper.

Hoyce didn't seem to consider it as BJJ lite. Actually he was quite impressed the last time we spoke. Yeah, we know each other and we've trained at the regional training center at the same time.

I can see how you'd draw an uniformed opinion though since you have no common frame of reference to what Israeli training entails.

If no one's getting stabbed for real, then it's just larping.

Ah, you've never trained with Boatman, Blauer or Good then...pity, you've missed out on good training.

Yet, you still haven't answered my specific, SIMPLE question of:

"Do you include sparring at full power to KO your partners as apart of your training?"

You seemed to be quite fixated on this as some sort of standard. It's not. But I've done much better, I've KO'd real live violent felons, in real life, doing real bad guy things. And there wasn't a referee, pads, gloves, water bottle or groan cup in sight. Do we train hard enough that a KO is a possibility during training? Yep. And the possibility for broken stuff is always a possibility as well i.e. bones, doors, walls etc. Part of training. Doesn't make you tough though.

That's awesome that you can make money training people this.

Though I've been offered obscene amounts of money (due to my certifications), these days I teach for free. Simply because I love to teach and know the material. Which is why I always take exception to wanna-bee's that think they're tough and think they know what self defense is when what they offer is simply crap.

Have a nice day

 

[FriedRice]

I see we can add reading comprehension to your already impressive list of skills

I said I've based my comments on the ridiculous video in your OP as well as your statements. You don't have a clue what SD training actually entails.

Apparently to you, SD = larping with cool scenarios.

Ah no, there's the reading comprehension failing you again. I said they were picked up AT the 3 yrd line. You'd have to know what a firing range looks like though to understand the difference.

Ok, how far are you running with someone on your back then. Tell me the distance. I only shoot at indoor range where they don't allow this, sorry.

Which means you have limited your training to the gym. Pity.

No, I just don't have access to a full playground for larping in camou. I wish I did though b/c I love guns and what you described with your gun play, I love it.

Hoyce didn't seem to consider it as BJJ lite. Actually he was quite impressed the last time we spoke. Yeah, we know each other and we've trained at the regional training center at the same time.

Royce would probably enjoy his name being spelled correctly also. Royce was your guess. I also read that Royce has been getting into gun playing and you probably have more knowledge than him with this. So why would Royce berate you to your face for? He was your guest. But you do not train full BJJ, and therefore, it's BJJ Lite.

You seemed to be quite fixated on this as some sort of standard. It's not. But I've done much better, I've KO'd real live violent felons, in real life, doing real bad guy things.

Sorry, not impressed. Most tough guys in the streets are untrained and terrible at fighting.

Do we train hard enough that a KO is a possibility during training? Yep. And the possibility for broken stuff is always a possibility as well i.e. bones, doors, walls etc. Part of training. Doesn't make you tough though.

Though I've been offered obscene amounts of money (due to my certifications), these days I teach for free. Simply because I love to teach and know the material. Which is why I always take exception to wanna-bee's the thing their tough and think they know what self defense is when what they offer is simply crap.

Have a nice day

Can I join for a free trial if I'm in the area? But just to be clear, since you've phrase this answer to be quite ambiguous.....would you allow full power sparring, once the bell ring or when the dude from the watch tower fires off a shot or something......which means that the participants can swing, full power, for the fences at their partner, right? Just to be clear

 

[JowGaWolf]

But to nitpick, you said that 5 of your guys would win with your tactics but now you admit that they should be more accustomed to such chaotic environment as they train for this joint.

Knowing that someone is about to attack you on your flack is one thing. Having enough time to do something about it is something totally different. Being aware that you are about to be attack doesn't mean that you can actually do something about it. It just means that you are aware that an attack is coming. In other words, you are fighting one guy and you see me move to your flank, just because you see me move to your flank doesn't mean you can actually do something to stop my attack.

Because these guys fighting 1 on 1 at the start, you can only hope that one of your guys will pick that guy up.
For Example: At this particular moment A and B aren't engaging each other because they are keeping watch. C actually has a chance to go after the guy on his left, but he has to bang that guy hard enough where they can quickly get rid of their opponent. He can't attack as if he's scared. At that point it's would be a double team. C probably has the best opportunity because A can help delay any attack coming in at C. If the guy turns to address C on his flank then then his original opponent will have an opportunity for a clean shot. Another scenario is that A and C attack the guy to their left. They don't need to stay on him, they only need to nail him with hard shots and get out.

A long shot scenario would be for A to attack the guy to his right. He would need to Freight Train in. B will engage A to prevent the Double team, which at that time the other guy in red can switch targets an pick up B so that A doesn't get doubled teamed.

In terms of awareness. That guy in the yellow to the left of C and A is probably aware of C and A and is more than likely counting on his team mates to, at a minimum, keep those guys occupied mentally so they don't engage him.

What I'm describing is a strategy for fighting as a Unit and not fighting 1 vs 1. Ideally as a unit you want to isolate 1 opponent from the rest of the team. The guy to the left of C and A fits that scenario.

In the bottom. A realizes that one of his opponents is isolated so he goes in to take a shot. B is unable to do anything to back up his teammate. Attacker A makes the mistake of trying to hit the guy. I would think a solid tackle or some kind of attack where the body weight could be used would have been better, as it has less risk of a glancing effect. At the very least hop on the guys back and choke him out.

 

[drop bear]

Well, as one of the SD guys on the board...

Your premise is flawed from the OP. I watched your video and noticed that everyone was wearing gloves, mouth piece and I assume a cup. They don't wear those things in a street fight. I also noticed several referees. They don't have them in a street fight either. And what were the referees doing anyway? Enforcing rules and making sure nobody really got hurt (like in a street fight with no referees). A also noticed that they were 'fighting' on a nice soft, level, dry mat that was well lit. I've not seen that in a street fight either.

I couldn't help but notice that no one pulled an edged weapon. They have those in many street fights. I didn't see any firearms, sticks or improvised weapons. They have those in many street fights as well.

So this is another attempt to make a MMA sport the equal of street self defense. And like every other attempt, it failed. Take those guys and nix all the safety gear, the soft mat (they'll be on asphalt), the referees, the rules and give one of them a can of O.C., other a firearm, a couple have knives and/or sticks and let the others use improvised weapons (anything available in the parking lot between the parked cars that is available) and then we'll see what REALLY happens in the streets.

You see, SD people don't depend on rules, time outs, tap outs, water breaks, corner advice and medical attention that is waiting just outside the ring.

This is just another stupid thread that tries to put a square peg in a round hole.

You would have more carnage But I am not sure what fundimental differences you would really get.

Gpseymour. Again see how this street/sport just gets thrown out there out of context. As a big generalization.