"Speed" in Japanese and/or Okinawan karate

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Gaucho, Jul 8, 2019.

  1. Gaucho

    Gaucho Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Speed is always important, but are there some styles which really focus on developing speed in strikes more than other styles do?
    Thank you.
     
  2. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    8,999
    Likes Received:
    5,600
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    I think that depends more on the school and the people teaching than on the style. I was friendly with a lot of folks who ran dojos over the years. Some schools trained differently from others of the same style, some of whom came from the exact same lineage.

    We did a lot of speed exercises, a lot of fast twitch work, but a lot of strength work as well.

    We also did a lot of work on how to beat superior speed. With superior timing.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2019
    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    There are some styles that stress speed as part of their design: escrima & silat, American kenpo, and some Okinawan styles, come to mind. Economy of motion, timing, balance, muscle tension, and hand position in kumai/guard all affect speed. These factors involve relative speed - may not travel as fast, but get there soonest (which is what really counts.) Then there is raw speed - how fast the practitioner's weapon can travel thru space. Physical ability, reaction time and, I believe, one's mental/spiritual bearing contribute to this. So, style, raw and relative speed all combine into this question of speed. And, as always, it takes an instructor to pass these concepts on to their students.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Gweilo

    Gweilo Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2019
    Messages:
    271
    Likes Received:
    73
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Speed is excellent, when used in the right context, unfortunately speed can make some people delusional. See what I mean in the following FB link

    A Idz Pan W Cholere
     
  5. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    8,999
    Likes Received:
    5,600
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    I agree with you. But I think that all striking arts teach that. I'm talking more about drills to actually improve speed. One's actual speed can be improved if worked on properly. What one does with improved speed is something else entirely.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2017
    Messages:
    3,287
    Likes Received:
    1,415
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Location:
    Saline
    It's all about what type of muscle fiber you are building.

    To build speed in striking it's about adding fast twitch muscle fiber.
     
  7. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    8,999
    Likes Received:
    5,600
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    I'm so fast I can steal your radio and leave the music.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    5,495
    Likes Received:
    745
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    You can't add muscle fibres at all? ,Your rather stuck with what God gave you, you can convert type two to type two A, , that's faster , slow twitch fibres or slow fast twitch , one of them

    But speed , as opposed to power , us more governed by the. Co ordination of nervous system Han which fibres your using,
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
  9. Christopher Adamchek

    Christopher Adamchek Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2018
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    103
    Trophy Points:
    98
    Location:
    CT
    Speed is fun, i focus more on teaching timing
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    20,816
    Likes Received:
    6,090
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I think the common confusion about adding muscle fibers is because the cells can actually add new myfibrils during hypertrophy. If that's what they refer to by "fibers", then they're right. If they mean "cells", I think you're correct.

    As for changing type, there seems to still be argument about that. There are studies going all the way back to the 1960's that purport to show slow-twitch muscle converting to fast-twitch and back. Apparently, we (maybe) all have some amount of "hybrid" cells that can change rapidly in response to the demands of a given course of activity. They're more common in sedentary people, far less common in elite athletes (to the point that they may have no hybrid cells). My best read of what I've seen is that these hybrid cells are what shifts around, so we can change our FT% by recruiting these hybrid cells to fast-twitch/superfast-twitch.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    4,775
    Likes Received:
    2,843
    Trophy Points:
    403
    Location:
    In the dojo
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,451
    Likes Received:
    2,462
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Michigan
    Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast.

    Not everyone can have speed, but nearly everyone can have good technique. Not everyone can have strength, but nearly everyone can have technique.

    Good technique can beat speed and strength. It's great if you can have all three, but if you cant, focus on technique. Age and infirmity will take this from you last.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    5,495
    Likes Received:
    745
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    .
    well sort of, id postulate, thatgood technique is co coordination, an so to a large part are strength ( power) and speed. but of the three, allowing you trained them all, strength is the last to go

    at 60 I'm stronger than I've ever been, unfortunately, despite no end if effort, i can't recapturethe speed or co ordination that i had in my 20s, but then i was heavily blessed with both,
     
  14. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    4,775
    Likes Received:
    2,843
    Trophy Points:
    403
    Location:
    In the dojo
    Speed, strength, and technique are great and all, but IMO something trumps them all: vision (for lack of a better word, and not from an acuity sense). If you can see things unfold early, you can react early. Ever spar with one of those people who seemed to know what you were going to do before you knew what you were going to do? That’s what I mean by having great vision. I hate sparring with those guys. And I love sparring with those guys. Everything I throw gets countered by those guys before I’m done throwing it. There’s a woman at my dojo who’s one of the best fighters I’ve ever been around. She’s not very fast, to say the least. But she sees the kick or punch coming and the opening its left and my punch is deflected and I’m hit 2-3 times before I’ve followed through with the initial punch. She doesn’t hit me like that because of hand speed. It’s her “vision.” Someone who’s got average speed and power is going to hurt you if they see the fight right.

    All IMO.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Useful Useful x 1
  15. Gaucho

    Gaucho Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    JR 137 describes an interesting phenomenon, which is a matter of eye>to>brain coordination, brain speed, and sometimes brain>to>body speed on the way back out. I know a martial artist like that, and he just functions on a different time frame, so to speak. He has trained a lot, but he has natural ability as well, as have most (or all) top athletes. I sparred with him, and when I threw a punch at him, he turned a little bit and slapped me across the head with a side kick before my punch got to him. I may as well have been fighting Superman.

    Wayne Gretzky has that, which allowed him to figure out what was happening and what was going to happen before the other hockey players did.
     
  16. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    4,775
    Likes Received:
    2,843
    Trophy Points:
    403
    Location:
    In the dojo
    Gretzky is a great example. He wasn’t the fastest, strongest, and most purely physically gifted hockey player. He saw the game unfold and always put himself in the right place at the right time. That’s that vision I’m talking about.

    Michael Jordan is my default example. Like Gretzky, he wasn’t the fastest and most physically gifted guy. He was above average, but there were plenty of better athletes when he played. But he always seemed to be a step ahead of everyone else. Everyone remembers those spectacular dunks and jump shots where he shook off two guys right in front of him. He did that by seeing what was going on and taking advantage of every little opening he was given. It was like he had ESP and knew what was going to happen before it actually happened.

    I think that’s what truly separates the elite from the rest. They see what’s going on and somehow consistently anticipate things right. They’re seeing the tells, cues, etc. and reacting. If you know exactly what’s coming and where, it makes getting into the right place and countering a hell of a lot easier.

    I’m not saying I’ve sparred with MAists on Jordan and Gretzky’s level. Not even close. But the people I have in mind that I have sparred with have that trait of being able to easily read what I’m doing and take full advantage. And they’re not particularly gifted with purely physical attributes. And they didn’t sit there and study my movement before they sparred me.

    I wish I had that ability. I keep trying :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,451
    Likes Received:
    2,462
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Michigan
    That 'vision' thing could be technique. It can be learned and practiced. The first thing I've noticed about those guys is they're not looking me in the eyes...
     
  18. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    5,495
    Likes Received:
    745
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    technique
    yes it is a technique, but a cerebral one, its modeling the " world" and using that model to make predictions, its what we do all the time when driving, or should.advance driving course will focus very much on building that skill by doing a running commentary of what you see and what you predict may happen. " pedestrian staring at his phone, fairly good chance he will step out with out looking" etc

    even if you are making multiple predictions, out comes of increasing likelihood, the fact that the eventually when it occurs has been already considered and your response to some level predetermined means your reaction speed seems greatly increased, in advance examples as given above to the point you appear superhuman
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019 at 7:32 AM
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  19. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    20,816
    Likes Received:
    6,090
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Much of it is likely an unconscious pattern recognition, paired with an unusual level of trust in that process’s result.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,451
    Likes Received:
    2,462
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Michigan
    Trust is built based on results, positive and negative.

    I've had people say I'm fast when I spar. I'm not. I'm actually quite slow. And most of the fast people in my dojo are much too fast for me. Usually I don't need to be fast, I'm prepared.
     

Share This Page