Speed and Power In Your Strikes

[KenpoDave]

dave, i've been following this thread and agree with your deductions. i orignally threw 'resistance' into the mix, as this is a human/physical application of power, therefore 'technique' has a lot to do with the actual manifestation. however, i can agree that resistance is a negative sub-cat of both force and velocity, a factor that would limit one's ability to reach full potential, therefore limit full power.

however, where i see this 'resistance/technique' thing coming more into play is in actual usage, where one may have to govern his total power by self inflicted resistenace, or 'counter balance' to avoid 'over-committment' of the attack.

pete

I agree.

 

[Matt]

It is a simple yes or no question...Does anyone believe, using the above equation posted from www.physicsclassroom.com, that full power can be achieved without full force or full velocity?

No, the equation is not up to the job. There is one small problem. Well, actually a whole bunch of them.

• Muscle contraction strength and speed of contraction follow a curve, and the highest force production occurs at slow speeds for any given muscle. 1RM lifts are slow. 15 RM lifts are much faster.

• Striking is a complex kinetic chain and requires many muscles to act in a coordinated sequential pattern.

• Different parts of the body will be acting at different velocities.

• There is probably an 'optimum power' sweet spot, and it's most likely not at the fastest or slowest contraction speed.

• There are several segments of the body that work as relatively discrete masses and the force should probably be calculated independently and in a best case scenario might be able to be 'summed' with high efficiency.

Basically, the physics formulas you grabbed are insufficient to provide even a reasonable approximation of 'optimum power'.

It's sort of like why baseball bats have a 'sweet spot' that's not at the end, even though the basic formula for radial velocity would indicate that the tip of the bat would be the best place to make contact with the ball as it would be the longest lever arm.

Essentially this is where biomechanics diverges from basic free body physics. When calculating projectiles, 45 degrees is the obvious choice for launch angle for maximum distance. Strangely enough however, when doing the long jump, 17 to 22 degrees is the optimum takeoff. It's sort of an apples and oranges thing and isn't especially intuitive.

Matt

 

[Ray]

No, the equation is not up to the job. There is one small problem. Well, actually a whole bunch of them.
...

Essentially this is where biomechanics diverges from basic free body physics. When calculating projectiles, 45 degrees is the obvious choice for launch angle for maximum distance. Strangely enough however, when doing the long jump, 17 to 22 degrees is the optimum takeoff. It's sort of an apples and oranges thing and isn't especially intuitive.

Totally awesome post.

 

[Matt]

Totally awesome post.

Thanks, just showing off my Phys. Ed. / Nerd conjunction.

I tried to calculate it all out once, and I'm going to go try to find the full page of circles, arrows and paragraphs so I can a.) avoid re-doing it and b.) show what a mess it can become.

If I can I'll scan it and post a link.

Matt

 

[KenpoDave]

No, the equation is not up to the job. There is one small problem. Well, actually a whole bunch of them.

• Muscle contraction strength and speed of contraction follow a curve, and the highest force production occurs at slow speeds for any given muscle. 1RM lifts are slow. 15 RM lifts are much faster.

• Striking is a complex kinetic chain and requires many muscles to act in a coordinated sequential pattern.

• Different parts of the body will be acting at different velocities.

• There is probably an 'optimum power' sweet spot, and it's most likely not at the fastest or slowest contraction speed.

• There are several segments of the body that work as relatively discrete masses and the force should probably be calculated independently and in a best case scenario might be able to be 'summed' with high efficiency.

Basically, the physics formulas you grabbed are insufficient to provide even a reasonable approximation of 'optimum power'.

It's sort of like why baseball bats have a 'sweet spot' that's not at the end, even though the basic formula for radial velocity would indicate that the tip of the bat would be the best place to make contact with the ball as it would be the longest lever arm.

Essentially this is where biomechanics diverges from basic free body physics. When calculating projectiles, 45 degrees is the obvious choice for launch angle for maximum distance. Strangely enough however, when doing the long jump, 17 to 22 degrees is the optimum takeoff. It's sort of an apples and oranges thing and isn't especially intuitive.

Matt

Thanks. So, you are saying that optimum power is full power, and that one can punch at full power at less than full speed. Do you have an equation that can reasonable approximate this?

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

dave, i've been following this thread and agree with your deductions. i orignally threw 'resistance' into the mix, as this is a human/physical application of power, therefore 'technique' has a lot to do with the actual manifestation. however, i can agree that resistance is a negative sub-cat of both force and velocity, a factor that would limit one's ability to reach full potential, therefore limit full power.

however, where i see this 'resistance/technique' thing coming more into play is in actual usage, where one may have to govern his total power by self inflicted resistenace, or 'counter balance' to avoid 'over-committment' of the attack.

pete

Hi Pete, Dave and others,

I've been reading all the posts and I think that we are now into math instead of doing EFFECTIVE SPEED AND EFFECTIVE POWER.

And I've been asked privately by Dave to post on this topic, so here's a quickee.

I still remember the first time I heard Ed Parker (1975) ask the question, "do you need a cannon to kill a sparrow? Or is a bb gun good enough?"

It was one of the most massive epiphanies I've had in the martial arts. God Damn! I don't need to continually attempt to develop power! Wow!

Monday night I was teaching a medical doctor a speed (invisible to the uke) Counter-offensive technology that had as one of it's strikes a knockout (flash point).

I mentioned to him that it was one of the Primary Electricals of the human body and would take out balance and vision instantly (just as if you'd shot him through the head on the "T" Zone with a .45 cal), so the uke would collasp, but would be just fine in 3-5 seconds as long as you did it with very light penetration.

When I teach I always demonstrate on real bodies, and I always use yound strong men (between 18-35) so their are the results I'm looking for but no lasting damage due to aging and deterioation of the body.

So I dropped the young strong uke to his knees with a real light pisaform strike to GB 22. He fell like a brick, but was immediately okay. And, "no" to the mismatchers, it was NOT hypnosis.

The MD goes, "awe, come on. That couldn't drop him".

I smiled at him, "so let me hit you".

So I did and he fell also.

He got to his feet and said, "but you hit me harder than you hit him".

The rest of the black belts starting laughing at him. He was cool. He took it okay.

I then taught him the location of the impact zone. The angle. The exact weapon to use. How to do the Bamboo breath to lock in the mass to that straight line strike with a circle on it's end.

So he finally believed it worked when he could make it work.

Then he stated, but it's not an electrical point. They don't exist. It must be a nerve plexus under the mastoid.

I told him, "Doc, whether your education has taught you about them or not, there is six thousand years of Traditional Chinese Medicine that has already proved they exist and can be used for healing and for attack".

He looked at me funny, and then stopped his arguing.

Back in 1990 I did write a best selling GIANT manual on "Speed Fighting, Speed Hitting Secrets of the Masters".

I think you have that book Dave, and if you want to toss out one or two points of that old book, you have my permission.

The point of speed is it gives the ability to increase effectiveness, deception and attack and counter-attack abilities. So we do have things that do increase your speed.

Other points that have NOT been addressed here are the many different types of effective speed.

I'm curious to why that is so.

Then we have many tactics of decreasing their speed, and adding to their confusion and reaction time.

I've got some very stuff I've not yet published on this. I'll see if I can find it.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

 

[kaizasosei]

what exactly is meant power? i understand the speed part, but i don't know what technique or what task is to be achieved. because there could be severlal possible kinds of power. like the destructive power of causing shock or damage to the enemy or brick or whatever. then there's the power to move mass- like to throw or push someone. - talking about leverage etc-there are even several powers working to create a kind of effect.
at times fast motion could be powerful, other times quick ones. when completely trapped the body will gather stregth and then shake violently to attempt to become free.
but i find it interesting nevertheless to compare striking with just the arms or with the entire body. the body is more powerful but the hands are much faster and harder to see coming.-therefore more suited for stunning.
there is something about the motion of the attack as well as all things in life that the energy follows some sort of 'conrolled release'-
in fighting, the opponents engage with the precise intention of concealing the timing and or the nature of their actions. closing in while in some way looking to hit the other or to close in as a defensive counterstrike also to strike in some way. there is a buildup of energy which is released---.

j

 

[Danjo]

When I teach I always demonstrate on real bodies, and I always use yound strong men (between 18-35) so their are the results I'm looking for but no lasting damage due to aging and deterioation of the body.

So I dropped the young strong uke to his knees with a real light pisaform strike to GB 22. He fell like a brick, but was immediately okay. And, "no" to the mismatchers, it was NOT hypnosis.

The MD goes, "awe, come on. That couldn't drop him".

I smiled at him, "so let me hit you".

So I did and he fell also.

He got to his feet and said, "but you hit me harder than you hit him".

The rest of the black belts starting laughing at him. He was cool. He took it okay.

I then taught him the location of the impact zone. The angle. The exact weapon to use. How to do the Bamboo breath to lock in the mass to that straight line strike with a circle on it's end.

So he finally believed it worked when he could make it work.

Forgive me for extracting this part of your post without the rest of it, but I have a question regarding this.

I've seen your video on YouTube and read the above and this was what I noticed: The people that you demo on and what you describe above show the person standing still to recieve the attack. If something has to be done so precisely, "location, angle, exact weapon and the bamboo tech etc.", how practical is it in a fighting situation? For instance, I would have my guard up and be moving as well as attacking at the same time. How would this type of attack be useful against that?

One might only need a BB Gun to kill a Sparrow at rest, but a game bird in flight requires a shotgun.

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

I've seen your video on YouTube and read the above and this was what I noticed: The people that you demo on and what you describe above show the person standing still to recieve the attack. If something has to be done so precisely, "location, angle, exact weapon and the bamboo tech etc.", how practical is it in a fighting situation?

Even though this is not on topic and I have covered it elsewhere on martialtalk, that 5 minute demo of speed waza's is just that, a "demo of speed waza's". It is not a bar fight. It is not a cage fight. It is not a sparring match. It is a demonstration of a few (a very SMALL amount)specific DRILLS used by me and my students to gain awesomely effective speed and power and accuracy.

A gentleman on kenpotalk asked me if we had any of those drills. I said, "yes". Then I got a few of my students and spent 10 minutes with them SHOWING the drills. Then, as a freebee, my son put those simple DRILLS up on you tube for that one person.

Again, they were DRILLS, like typing drills. Here, let me give you a simple example of DRILLS! aaaaaa bbbbbbb cccccccc ddddd eeeee fffffff gggggg hhhhhhhhh iiiiiiiiii jjjjjjjjjj kkkkkkkkk lllllllll mmmmmmmm nnnnnnnnnn ooooooo ppppppppp qqqqqqqqqq rrrrrrrrrrr ssssssss tttttttttt uuuuuuuuuu vvvvvvvvvvv wwwwww xxxxxxxxx yyyyyyyy zzzzzzzzzzzzz! DRILLS! DRILLS! DRILLS! DRILLS! DRILLS! DRILLS! DRILLS! DRILLS! DRILLS! DRILLS!

And I did produce other DVD's (about 370 videos back then, 20 years ago) on "Secrets of Speed Attack" and "Secrets of Championship Sparring" and "Secrets of Speed Fighting" (and many other topics) which go over more advanced DRILLS for exactly what you are asking about.

And at GOE 2007, one of the SPEED demos I did was have a black belt "hit me", and even though he started FIRST, I stopped timed him and off angled him and hit him 8 times before his punch got close, then I blocked it.

But of course he wasn't really trying, so I had him hit me again, and he really did try. So I could only hit him 5 times that time before his punch got close enough to block.

But of course he wasn't really trying and everyone knows that Speed Hitting is not possible or effective, so I had him hit me again, and he really, really, really did try. So that last time I could only hit him 3 times before his punch got close enough to block.

And, of course, even though I'd never met the person before, we must have faked it, right? Because it can't be REAL effective right?

But you were NOT in that workshop so you missed it. I did have it filmed and many people have enjoyed that workshop on DVD. KenpoJoe was also there and he filmed it also (with my permission, but only for his OWN study!).

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
ps. I'm confused to why no one has answered my questions. They were really good questions, that if you THINK ABOUT THE ANSWERS, it will really help your speed skills.

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

One might only need a BB Gun to kill a Sparrow at rest, but a game bird in flight requires a shotgun.

Your logic (?) is so funny.

I couldn't pass up you changing what I said that Ed Parker said.

And when I was a kid I did kill a lot of birbs with my bb gun. So did my brother. And when my kids were growing up they did kill a lot of birds with their bb guns.

Maybe you NEED PRACTICE?

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
Ps. I really do suggest that you research a personality profile called "mismatching" and another one called "Polarity responder". It might be an epiphanity for you. But I really don't care either way.

 

[Grenadier]

however, where i see this 'resistance/technique' thing coming more into play is in actual usage, where one may have to govern his total power by self inflicted resistenace, or 'counter balance' to avoid 'over-committment' of the attack.

pete

Quite true.

Sometimes, we have to remind ourselves, that parts of the body have to relax, or else, we end up creating that resistance. Often times, this can be seen when someone's simply trying too darn hard to generate power.

For example, I've had some rather large (physically strong) students, who, when they first started training, thought that they had to tense their whole body when throwing a punch. When doing so, they'd even tense the shoulders (trapezius), which hindered their ability to accelerate.

Trying to get some folks to relax, especially when they're new, and nervous, can be difficult. There are even times, where you may have to tell them to tense a different part of their body, in order to make another part relax.

 

[Danjo]

Even though this is not on topic and I have covered it elsewhere on martialtalk, that 5 minute demo of speed waza's is just that, a "demo of speed waza's". It is not a bar fight. It is not a cage fight. It is not a sparring match. It is a demonstration of a few (a very SMALL amount)specific DRILLS used by me and my students to gain awesomely effective speed and power and accuracy.

A gentleman on kenpotalk asked me if we had any of those drills. I said, "yes". Then I got a few of my students and spent 10 minutes with them SHOWING the drills. Then, as a freebee, my son put those simple DRILLS up on you tube for that one person.

Again, they were DRILLS, like typing drills. Here, let me give you a simple example of DRILLS! aaaaaa bbbbbbb cccccccc ddddd eeeee fffffff gggggg hhhhhhhhh iiiiiiiiii jjjjjjjjjj kkkkkkkkk lllllllll mmmmmmmm nnnnnnnnnn ooooooo ppppppppp qqqqqqqqqq rrrrrrrrrrr ssssssss tttttttttt uuuuuuuuuu vvvvvvvvvvv wwwwww xxxxxxxxx yyyyyyyy zzzzzzzzzzzzz! DRILLS! DRILLS! DRILLS! DRILLS! DRILLS! DRILLS! DRILLS! DRILLS! DRILLS! DRILLS!

And I did produce other DVD's (about 370 videos back then, 20 years ago) on "Secrets of Speed Attack" and "Secrets of Championship Sparring" and "Secrets of Speed Fighting" (and many other topics) which go over more advanced DRILLS for exactly what you are asking about.

And at GOE 2007, one of the SPEED demos I did was have a black belt "hit me", and even though he started FIRST, I stopped timed him and off angled him and hit him 8 times before his punch got close, then I blocked it.

But of course he wasn't really trying, so I had him hit me again, and he really did try. So I could only hit him 5 times that time before his punch got close enough to block.

But of course he wasn't really trying and everyone knows that Speed Hitting is not possible or effective, so I had him hit me again, and he really, really, really did try. So that last time I could only hit him 3 times before his punch got close enough to block.

And, of course, even though I'd never met the person before, we must have faked it, right? Because it can't be REAL effective right?

But you were NOT in that workshop so you missed it. I did have it filmed and many people have enjoyed that workshop on DVD. KenpoJoe was also there and he filmed it also (with my permission, but only for his OWN study!).

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
ps. I'm confused to why no one has answered my questions. They were really good questions, that if you THINK ABOUT THE ANSWERS, it will really help your speed skills.

Wow. Get worked up much?

Might be cool to see the video you are mentioning to make your point. As to the rest, you're clearly answering questions that I didn't ask. In terms of effectiveness though, that has yet to be demonstrated. Hitting someone 8 times with a bb gun isn't going to do a lot of damage.

 

[Danjo]

Your logic (?) is so funny.

I couldn't pass up you changing what I said that Ed Parker said.

And when I was a kid I did kill a lot of birbs with my bb gun. So did my brother. And when my kids were growing up they did kill a lot of birds with their bb guns.

Maybe you NEED PRACTICE?

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
Ps. I really do suggest that you research a personality profile called "mismatching" and another one called "Polarity responder". It might be an epiphanity for you. But I really don't care either way.

I don't see the point in practicing with weapons designed to kill the equivalent of sparrows at rest when it's far more useful to be able to kill larger game birds in flight.

 

[Danjo]

Ps. I really do suggest that you research a personality profile called "mismatching" and another one called "Polarity responder". It might be an epiphanity for you. But I really don't care either way.

I might suggest you research the terms "Flim Flam" or "Huckster." But whatever.

 

[kaizasosei]

a lame riddle

what for do you need fingers if you have a palm. what do you need a palm for if you have fingers?
lol

 

[thardey]

a lame riddle

what for do you need fingers if you have a palm. what do you need a palm for if you have fingers?
lol

Indeed, one is useless without the other.


I was taught that Momentum = Mass x Velocity, which was very helpful in my football career as a lineman. Whoever had the greater momentum would move the other guy. So, since I was often half the weight of the other guys, if I got moving to twice the speed, then our momentum would be equal. Of course, since I was smaller, I could accelerate faster. After the initial collision, I would be at a disadvantage, because of the less strength, but then I would resort to leverage, crab-blocking, taunting, etc to keep the advantage.

Then in Karate I was taught that while momentum has its uses, particularly to knock someone over, it was "damaging energy" that we are after. I try to "dent" the kicking bag, not knock it over. I may have been taught wrong, but this was described as "kinetic energy." The equation for that is 1/2 mass x (velocity[squared]). That is, if you double the mass, you double the energy, but if you double the velocity, you quadruple the energy. That's why it's easier to break board with speed than just by pushing.

Now, I may have been taught wrong, and I'm neither a physics or math major, so kinetic energy may not be what we're dealing with after all.

But if it is, then how to apply it to a human being, say, throwing a punch? Okay, in sparring, I throw close to maximum velocity on a punch, however, I never tighten up on contact. This means that while my velocity is high, my mass (for the sake of transfer of energy) is only the weight of my fist and forearm. If I loosen my fist, then I slow down that transfer over a longer period of time, and widen the transfer area = Little or no damage caused.

If I tighten my fist, with the proper knuckle alignment, and proper use of my body, then the mass involved increases significantly, as well as shortening the time over which the energy is transferred, and transferring it into a smaller area. At the moment of impact, I would be increasing the mass to include some percentage of my body weight, (At this point I'm out of my league, since I don't know how much stances affect overall mass and such.) But suffice to say that the mass is increased, speed is high, and damage is caused.

On the other hand, If I am already touching my partner/opponent, and I push really hard, I may move him, but I probably won't hurt him unless he trips and lands on the floor. (In which case it's the impact with the floor that got him.) That's a lot of mass, but no speed.

It's like shooting the above mentioned shotgun, without having it pushed tight against your shoulder. If you give it enough room to develop speed, then it will bruise your shoulder, but if it is tight to begin with, it will only push you.

So, my answer to the original question, as I understood it is, that no, you cannot develop full transfer of energy without speed. That is, it is not worth sacrificing speed in order to utilize more mass (or strength.) Speed is twice as effective as mass (practically speaking mass=strength) at causing damage. That doesn't mean, however, that you can't regain the use of some of that mass by tightening up at the point of impact, which is ideal.

 

[KenpoDave]

Thanks for responding.

ps. I'm confused to why no one has answered my questions. They were really good questions, that if you THINK ABOUT THE ANSWERS, it will really help your speed skills.

I don't recall seeing questions. Could you repost them?

 

[KenpoDave]

I was taught that Momentum = Mass x Velocity, which was very helpful in my football career as a lineman. Whoever had the greater momentum would move the other guy. So, since I was often half the weight of the other guys, if I got moving to twice the speed, then our momentum would be equal. Of course, since I was smaller, I could accelerate faster. After the initial collision, I would be at a disadvantage, because of the less strength, but then I would resort to leverage, crab-blocking, taunting, etc to keep the advantage.

Then in Karate I was taught that while momentum has its uses, particularly to knock someone over, it was "damaging energy" that we are after. I try to "dent" the kicking bag, not knock it over. I may have been taught wrong, but this was described as "kinetic energy." The equation for that is 1/2 mass x (velocity[squared]). That is, if you double the mass, you double the energy, but if you double the velocity, you quadruple the energy. That's why it's easier to break board with speed than just by pushing.

Now, I may have been taught wrong, and I'm neither a physics or math major, so kinetic energy may not be what we're dealing with after all.

But if it is, then how to apply it to a human being, say, throwing a punch? Okay, in sparring, I throw close to maximum velocity on a punch, however, I never tighten up on contact. This means that while my velocity is high, my mass (for the sake of transfer of energy) is only the weight of my fist and forearm. If I loosen my fist, then I slow down that transfer over a longer period of time, and widen the transfer area = Little or no damage caused.

If I tighten my fist, with the proper knuckle alignment, and proper use of my body, then the mass involved increases significantly, as well as shortening the time over which the energy is transferred, and transferring it into a smaller area. At the moment of impact, I would be increasing the mass to include some percentage of my body weight, (At this point I'm out of my league, since I don't know how much stances affect overall mass and such.) But suffice to say that the mass is increased, speed is high, and damage is caused.

On the other hand, If I am already touching my partner/opponent, and I push really hard, I may move him, but I probably won't hurt him unless he trips and lands on the floor. (In which case it's the impact with the floor that got him.) That's a lot of mass, but no speed.

It's like shooting the above mentioned shotgun, without having it pushed tight against your shoulder. If you give it enough room to develop speed, then it will bruise your shoulder, but if it is tight to begin with, it will only push you.

So, my answer to the original question, as I understood it is, that no, you cannot develop full transfer of energy without speed. That is, it is not worth sacrificing speed in order to utilize more mass (or strength.) Speed is twice as effective as mass (practically speaking mass=strength) at causing damage. That doesn't mean, however, that you can't regain the use of some of that mass by tightening up at the point of impact, which is ideal.

Doesn't sound to me like you were taught wrong. Thanks.

 

[Wanderer]

It seems the physics discussion mostly worked itself out to before I got here. Oh well, next time.


The discussion seems to have moved from the theoretical physics into more practical matters of application, and ‘effective speed.’ I do agree with KenpoDave that speed done properly does not sacrifice mass, and would be 'effective speed,' as opposed to someone just trying to be fast by itself.



Doc LaTourrette brought up a good point in his question though, that there is more than 1 type of ‘speed’ in practical application, some of which have nothing to do with the scientific definition.


It doesn’t matter what velocity you are moving at; if your opponent doesn’t see it until it hits them you were quick as lightning.


Conversely, if you spend time winding up to the other side of the room you could have the fastest fist in the world and you’d still be slow.



Anthony

 

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Danjo

Hitting someone 8 times with a bb gun isn't going to do a lot of damage.

Not if you aim for their little toe. The left eye, however, or the right eye, trachea, open mouth, right testicle...

It is the same point as hitting sparrows in flight with a BB gun. A matter of practice(and awareness).