Sparring

[Gerry Seymour]

I believe there is another factor, and that is how well a person is "cut out for" a particular system or methodology. For some people a particular system is simply a poor match and they will never get any good at it, no matter how good others are with it, or they simply dislike the training methods or the approach to combat and so will not stick with the training and instead will find their interest in a different method.

This issue alone negates all of the arguments over XYZ style is the "best". There is no objective way to make such a claim and if the "best" system is a poor match for someone, then it is the worst system.

Good point. I'd be horrible for TKD. I am good with kicks, but have an inherent dislike of higher kicks PLUS some apparently genetic inflexibility in my hips. Bad art for me, but it seems to agree with my brother.

 

[drop bear]

Say you've only trained Jiu-jitsu. And you go into a boxing ring using only boxing rules.
Reverse it, you only box and go into a jits match only using jits rules.

You can pretty much replace boxing and jits with whatever styles you want.

Look at the first UFC competition. It came about from one man's question of an age old fight question, who would win, a boxer or a wrestler? It then expanded (before the first UFC) to a style vs style tournament with very few rules. But even that wasn't a panacea to answer the question because the levels of talent of the respective fighters was not equal. The reason they weren't equal was because the promoter, Art Davie, couldn't get anyone to fight.(seriously, he tried)

I would have loved to have seen people like Mike Tyson, Dan Gable, Ernesto Hoost, Jean-Yves Theriault etc in that first UFC. That would have been one hell of a show. But that wasn't about to happen.

Even if it did......what the UFC has morphed into since, is a specific sport. Regardless of style, you aren't going anywhere if you are not training specifically for UFC rules and reality. It has nothing what-so-ever to do with what your main style might or might not be.

You can look at all the videoed fights you want, it really doesn't answer the question being asked, which is.....oh, hell, I forget what the hell the question is.

Carry on.

It is no longer what is the best style but what works best regardless of style.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well I've done a bit more research, and the Bagua guy in that fight video is actually a sifu, and has done the art for over 30 years.

So that puts things in perspective.

Would it, if his opponent was also bagua? Are you certain that nobody can train 30 years without properly understanding the art? There was an instructor - actually senior to me, within the same dan rank - who had been training our art significantly longer than me, but who showed no understanding of the principles of the art. He trained under exactly the same series of 4 chief instructors I trained under, but didn't seem to "get it". I can't blame that on training or the art - that is either a mismatch (poor choice of arts for him) or mostly on him.

 

[Flying Crane]

Oh for the love of f##k.

Here is the truth about traditional martial arts.

Many people fail to practice in a manner that develops competent fighting and defense skills. That is a truth. There are many reasons for this, including the simple fact that most of us have no actual need for the skills, most of us can get thru life without ever ever needing to defend ourselves, so in the big picture many of us have allowed out training habits to lapse and lose effectiveness. Also, many people don't actually enjoy fighting. They don't enjoy hurting others, or getting hurt. So they are disinclined to do so for fun and entertainment. In addition, many people fail to recognize their own lack of real skill, and perpetuate the myth that they themselves have good fighting and defense skills, when in reality they do not. That is a truth.

However, for those who understand them properly and pursue training in the proper ways, these traditional methods can still build extremely effective skills. And yes, when done properly, forms/kata is a part of that process although it does not need to be. Training that includes forms, when done properly, can give you very effective skills. oh and lest I forget to mention it, training that does NOT include forms, when done properly, can give you very effective skills. Likewise, sparring can be part of that picture as well. Or not. And it depends on how you define your sparring, because there are many ways to do it and still call it by the same name. Can we move on past that now?

In my observations, fewer people who practice traditional martial arts have the kind of fighting skills that they ought, quite possibly myself included. But that is a failure of the people, and the instructors. That is not a failure of the methodology or the system itself.

Are we all able to understand that distinction?

 

[Flying Crane]

It is no longer what is the best style but what works best regardless of style.

Which boils down to being a style vs. style argument.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Typically people like that will "wash out" early in their training. You're not going to get a black belt or instructor grade in a system if you "dislike the training methods".

The problem we're seeing here is people who are told they are good, believe they are good, and then when faced with someone from a competitive style, they get beaten down as if they had no training at all.

See my last post.

 

[Hanzou]

I am not referring to you specifically. Every fighting style has people that are guilty of doing this. How is Kenpo karate and Judo involved here? I don't recall you ever questioning their efficiency, you seem to only target Chinese arts while forever praising anything UFC related. We have our disagreements yes but this is a general statement that does not single you out.

So you're no longer seeking Tai Chi instruction?

How will Tai Chi help me become a better martial artist?

That is a very niche post and not exaclty what I am talking about here. You more or less agreed with me and stated that the individual must work to get improve their weakpoints. What I am referring to is if the boxer were to lose to the wrestler then everyone and their mother starts to claim "wrestling is better than boxing" because a boxer happened to lose to a wrestler.

Well no, because there's plenty of examples of boxers beating wrestlers, especially once they learn takedown defense. Further, both parties fully acknowledge each other's weaknesses.

You simply don't see that coming out of TMA. I've often heard of TMA's "superior methods" compared to modern styles.

Forms are important in all fighting. Whether you are a grappler or you are striking without forms you get bad technique and bad technique leads to being bad at fighting. If you referring to kata though, as I said before, bjj has no kata so you have no experience doing them.

So since Bjj has no kata or forms you're saying that Bjj stylists have bad technique, and they're bad at fighting?

 

[drop bear]

That is a very niche post and not exaclty what I am talking about here. You more or less agreed with me and stated that the individual must work to get improve their weakpoints. What I am referring to is if the boxer were to lose to the wrestler then everyone and their mother starts to claim "wrestling is better than boxing" because a boxer happened to lose to a wrestler.

Really? This dosent happen in a mma environment. Maby it is just a tma thing.

 

[Ironbear24]

So you're no longer seeking Tai Chi instruction?

How will Tai Chi help me become a better martial artist?

I did and I enjoy it and continue to take it. I do however understand it will not make the Chinese man from kill bill or something. I do this and have a better understanding of qigong.

 

[Ironbear24]

Really? This dosent happen in a mma environment. Maby it is just a tma thing.

I don't get what you mean here.

 

[Ironbear24]

So since Bjj has no kata or forms you're saying that Bjj stylists have bad technique, and they're bad at fighting?

No I because bjj practices forms too. I said bjj has no kata in it. Kata is just one way to practice forms.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Really? This dosent happen in a mma environment. Maby it is just a tma thing.

Seriously? I see folks use this in MMA discussions often. Many MMA guys feel one style or another (bagua vs. MT, maybe?). I don't think this is any more prevalent in one are than another. It's people's ego making them feel like they have to be "right", so others have to be "wrong."

 

[Hanzou]

Would it, if his opponent was also bagua? Are you certain that nobody can train 30 years without properly understanding the art? There was an instructor - actually senior to me, within the same dan rank - who had been training our art significantly longer than me, but who showed no understanding of the principles of the art. He trained under exactly the same series of 4 chief instructors I trained under, but didn't seem to "get it". I can't blame that on training or the art - that is either a mismatch (poor choice of arts for him) or mostly on him.

Do you really think there are boxing, Bjj, Muay Thai, Judo, Sambo, wrestling, etc. instructors who have been practicing for 30 years and suck at the fundamental basics of their style?

Not very likely.

 

[Ironbear24]

You simply don't see that coming out of TMA. I've often heard of TMA's "superior methods" compared to modern styles.

It is seen in TMA though. Maybe you are just not experiencing it because you only do bjj which in my opinion is a traditional art. But that is off topic, the point is many TMA styles can admit their strengths and weaknesses, for example many Tae Kwon do people admit that their ground game is non existent and they have poor punches compared to other fighting styles, but their ability to fight longer distance with fast powerful kicks is incredible.

Even with kenpo many sifu's have adapted Judo and Jiu Jiutsu into their dojo so the students will know how to better defend against experienced grapplers.

 

[Hanzou]

No I because bjj practices forms too. I said bjj has no kata in it. Kata is just one way to practice forms.

And what "forms" do you think we practice?

It is seen in TMA though. Maybe you are just not experiencing it because you only do bjj which in my opinion is a traditional art. But that is off topic, the point is many TMA styles can admit their strengths and weaknesses, for example many Tae Kwon do people admit that their ground game is non existent and they have poor punches compared to other fighting styles, but their ability to fight longer distance with fast powerful kicks is incredible.

Neither TKD or Bjj are traditional martial arts. Both come from very modern MA styles.

Even with kenpo many sifu's have adapted Judo and Jiu Jiutsu into their dojo so the students will know how to better defend against experienced grapplers.

Hasn't Kenpo always been an eclectic martial art that actively absorbs outside influences?

 

[Ironbear24]

Really? This dosent happen in a mma environment. Maby it is just a tma thing.

Wait I think I get what you are saying now.

And you have to be kidding me. Just look around on these forums. People.like hanzou and friedrice do nothing but go around talking about how they feel mma is better than TMA and the majority of TMA is just bad.

Sorry hanzou, didn't mean to lump you in there with friedrice, you are much more respectable than that idiot.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do you really think there are boxing, Bjj, Muay Thai, Judo, Sambo, wrestling, etc. instructors who have been practicing for 30 years and suck at the fundamental basics of their style?

Not very likely.

If they have skills that let them survive without learning the principles of that art/style, it is possible (except for the rules. As I've said before, which limit alternatives and force folks to work the style in question). sparring helps eliminate poor fighters. Since those are all arts/styles that depend heavily on it, that reinforces what I've said previously about the value of sparring.

 

[Ironbear24]

And what "forms" do you think we practice?

How many various "gaurds" and maneuvers do you have in bj? When you train in those and practice the positioning and motions of your body that is like practicing forms.

 

[drop bear]

Wait I think I get what you are saying now.

And you have to be kidding me. Just look around on these forums. People.like hanzou and friedrice do nothing but go around talking about how they feel mma is better than TMA and the majority of TMA is just bad.

Sorry hanzou, didn't mean to lump you in there with friedrice, you are much more respectable than that idiot.

That is not a style thing. That is a training methodology thing.

 

[Ironbear24]

And what "forms" do you think we practice?

Neither TKD or Bjj are traditional martial arts. Both come from very modern MA styles.



Hasn't Kenpo always been an eclectic martial art that actively absorbs outside influences?

Yes and the reason for that was to strenghten itself as a style. It accepted it had weaknesses and became eclectic to fix the weaknesses.