Sparring

[JowGaWolf]

This. I think this is what I was seeing earlier. It just looks like someone poorly trained. I don't know much of CMA, but I'd expect to see something I recognize as not Western or Japanese. All I saw was weak sparring, with none of the hints of movements I'd recognize from what I'd call "typical" CMA - stances, circles, anything.

Is this just another case of a poor example of an art against a better example of another? We all know there's plenty of that to be found in videos.

yep and I really hate those videos because they are often seen as a representation of a fighting system, when in reality it isn't. How can we view someone as a representation of a fighting system when they literally aren't using anything from that fighting system.

This video is of 2 students learning how to use their kung fu to fight. The Jow Ga student is in the white shirt. You can hear (I'm assuming) his Sifu in the background saying "Use technique from form".. "no boxing.. no boxing hand." The sparring isn't great but that's what every student should be trying to do; Using the techniques from the system. Once these guys learn what technique and when to use it, they'll be able to spar against someone like the Muay Thai student in the other video and you'll be able to tell that they are doing kung fu.

Losing is at its worst when a person says they do kung fu only to lose the fight without having done any kung fu.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I agree he was definitely outclassed and it wasn't because of what he was training in in. It was because he didn't know how to use it or anything else against an opponent like that. Even the Muay Thai fighter knew the guy was at a lower skill level after the first minute you can see him change the power of his attacks. Which is the right thing to do when you are at a much higher skill level.
These guys sparring are using the same fighting system and it's clear to see that they are of a higher skill level. You can actually see how the technique of moving in a circle makes a harder target to hit. You can literally see kung fu techniques. I actually saw one similar to one that I do.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Then how do you think he was outclassed? Was the MT guy simply THAT much better than him?

Yes, he was, but I don't know the reason, since I don't know either guy's background. I don't know whether it was the art, length of training, style of training, amount of training/intensity, difference in instructors, or what. Your assertion that MT would always prevail may be true - I simply said I wasn't familiar with the other art. The only thing I can clearly see in the video is that one fighter seems disciplined and shows good form, while the other does not. I don't see evidence of the claimed forms training, since I don't see anything I'd call good form even before he got hit the first time, which is what I'd expect from someone heavily (and well-) trained in forms.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A fight can also be a big nasty rude shock if you are not ready for it.

By the way the CMA fighter broke mentally. As much as people like to believe they are ready for life or death fights quite often they are not equipped to deal with that sort of punishment and have the will power to keep pushing on.

Sparring is one way of overcoming that issue.

Yes, it is. It - at the very least - gets folks over the shock of getting hit, which can be really distracting the first few times.

 

[RTKDCMB]

A pretty good representation of someone mostly doing sparring training, and someone mostly doing form training.

That is just an assumption. It may be a pretty good representation of someone that is more skillful; than someone else.

My argument is simple; Muay Thai training is typically body toughening, hard contact, lots of cardio, and lots of sparring.

The bagua guy didn't seem to phased by the leg kicks from those conditioned shins.

Make them fight each other (in any context), and you get the results above.

Another assumption.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here's another great example;

Goju Ryu vs Xingyi stylist. Both show off competent form work, but when they start to actually fight one another, everything falls apart.

Put either one of them in the ring with that MT fighter from earlier, and they would do about as well as that Bagua fellow.

In this one, you can see both at least showing hints of their style. Neither appears to have done much realistic sparring, though, and they close distances ineffectively. I didn't think either form was great. I don't know the CMA forms at all, but his seemed to lack fluidity which I expected. The Goju guy had reasonable form, if a bit stiff (though I think that's actually how that form is supposed to be). My biggest issue with him was that his kiai (the shout) seemed to come entirely from the throat, which could indicate poor breath control - a real problem for sparring.

 

[Hanzou]

I agree he was definitely outclassed and it wasn't because of what he was training in in. It was because he didn't know how to use it or anything else against an opponent like that. Even the Muay Thai fighter knew the guy was at a lower skill level after the first minute you can see him change the power of his attacks. Which is the right thing to do when you are at a much higher skill level.
These guys sparring are using the same fighting system and it's clear to see that they are of a higher skill level. You can actually see how the technique of moving in a circle makes a harder target to hit. You can literally see kung fu techniques. I actually saw one similar to one that I do.

Interesting that that video is used as an example of good Bagua, when in another thread it was considered sub-par Bagua by other CMA practitioners.

Yes, he was, but I don't know the reason, since I don't know either guy's background.

The reason is training.

 

[Hanzou]

That is just an assumption. It may be a pretty good representation of someone that is more skillful; than someone else.

Again, exactly what makes someone more skillful than someone else?

The bagua guy didn't seem to phased by the leg kicks from those conditioned shins.

We must have been watching a different video. The leg kicks devastated the mobility of the CMA practitioner and forced him to close the distance, where he ate multiple punches.

Another assumption.

How exactly would them fighting outside on the concrete change anything?

 

[Buka]

Say you've only trained Jiu-jitsu. And you go into a boxing ring using only boxing rules.
Reverse it, you only box and go into a jits match only using jits rules.

You can pretty much replace boxing and jits with whatever styles you want.

Look at the first UFC competition. It came about from one man's question of an age old fight question, who would win, a boxer or a wrestler? It then expanded (before the first UFC) to a style vs style tournament with very few rules. But even that wasn't a panacea to answer the question because the levels of talent of the respective fighters was not equal. The reason they weren't equal was because the promoter, Art Davie, couldn't get anyone to fight.(seriously, he tried)

I would have loved to have seen people like Mike Tyson, Dan Gable, Ernesto Hoost, Jean-Yves Theriault etc in that first UFC. That would have been one hell of a show. But that wasn't about to happen.

Even if it did......what the UFC has morphed into since, is a specific sport. Regardless of style, you aren't going anywhere if you are not training specifically for UFC rules and reality. It has nothing what-so-ever to do with what your main style might or might not be.

You can look at all the videoed fights you want, it really doesn't answer the question being asked, which is.....oh, hell, I forget what the hell the question is.

Carry on.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Internal Kung Fu Conditioning is the same as external conditioning.

Interesting that that video is used as an example of good Bagua, when in another thread it was considered sub-par Bagua by other CMA practitioners.



The reason is training.

If your fighting looks like your fighting system then it's a good representation of that system. How well you use that system is a good representation of one's fighting ability.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Interesting that that video is used as an example of good Bagua, when in another thread it was considered sub-par Bagua by other CMA practitioners.



The reason is training.

That's an assumption (possibly valid), of which I have no evidence. It could be he's not experienced enough. Of course, if I translate that to amount of training, then it fits your conclusion, so let's go with that: it's probably either amount of training, quality/intensity of training, or type of training, or some combination of the three.

 

[Hanzou]

Internal Kung Fu Conditioning is the same as external conditioning.
If your fighting looks like your fighting system then it's a good representation of that system. How well you use that system is a good representation of one's fighting ability.

That only works if your fighting system actually teaches you how to fight.

 

[Flying Crane]

That's an assumption (possibly valid), of which I have no evidence. It could be he's not experienced enough. Of course, if I translate that to amount of training, then it fits your conclusion, so let's go with that: it's probably either amount of training, quality/intensity of training, or type of training, or some combination of the three.

I believe there is another factor, and that is how well a person is "cut out for" a particular system or methodology. For some people a particular system is simply a poor match and they will never get any good at it, no matter how good others are with it, or they simply dislike the training methods or the approach to combat and so will not stick with the training and instead will find their interest in a different method.

This issue alone negates all of the arguments over XYZ style is the "best". There is no objective way to make such a claim and if the "best" system is a poor match for someone, then it is the worst system.

 

[Hanzou]

I believe there is another factor, and that is how well a person is "cut out for" a particular system or methodology. For some people a particular system is simply a poor match and they will never get any good at it, no matter how good others are with it, or they simply dislike the training methods or the approach to combat and so will not stick with the training and instead will find their interest in a different method.

Typically people like that will "wash out" early in their training. You're not going to get a black belt or instructor grade in a system if you "dislike the training methods".

The problem we're seeing here is people who are told they are good, believe they are good, and then when faced with someone from a competitive style, they get beaten down as if they had no training at all.

 

[Flying Crane]

yep and I really hate those videos because they are often seen as a representation of a fighting system, when in reality it isn't. How can we view someone as a representation of a fighting system when they literally aren't using anything from that fighting system.
<snip>
Losing is at its worst when a person says they do kung fu only to lose the fight without having done any kung fu.

I would say it depends on how you identify something as "from that fighting system"

My method uses what you might call "stylized" techniques. While they can be effective if used right off the text book, in my opinion that stylization is really a training aid, an exaggeration of the movement, that helps the body understand deeper principles of full-body connection. When it comes to actually using the techniques it doesn't matter what it actually looks like. It could look like boxing, it could look like something that isn't stereotypically recognized as a technique. But that doesn't matter as long as the underlying principle of full-body connection is being used. That is the real lesson underneath the technique itself.

A casual observer might fail to recognize any of the "Kung fu" that is in there. It very well may not look like the traditional techniques of our system. Application can manifest a different form, as long as the principle is solid under it all. And that is right out of the heart of our system.

 

[Flying Crane]

Typically people like that will "wash out" early in their training. You're not going to get a black belt or instructor grade in a system if you "dislike the training methods".

The problem we're seeing here is people who are told they are good, believe they are good, and then when faced with someone from a competitive style, they get beaten down as if they had no training at all.

Yes and no. Sometimes it isn't the like or dislike, but simply a lack of aptitude. They often don't even realize it, may have had no other opportunities to try something else, and so just don't realize it. They may spend years training, expecting that eventually it will all come together, but it doesn't.

I had that experience. I trained in a method under a teacher who is very good, lots of experience and not someone you would want to mess with. But eventually I had to recognize that the system just isn't a good match for me, I never had real confidence with it. Regardless of how good he is, I would never be what he is in that method. I was a shodan in that system.

 

[Hanzou]

Well I've done a bit more research, and the Bagua guy in that fight video is actually a sifu, and has done the art for over 30 years.

So that puts things in perspective.

 

[Ironbear24]

These videos and conversations about style vs style are idiotic. I am not sure if I had said this before so if I repeat myself I so apologize.

No one person can represent a fighting style. They can only represent themselves. I told friends of mine too and for awhile they just couldn't get it.

When I spar against someone or fight against someone. It is ME who is doing it, not kenpo, not Judo but ME. So if I lose to a boxer or a wrestler or a goju ryu karateka. That does not mean the other person's fighting style is superior to mine. It is vice versa if I win this fight, it means that I was good enough to best my opponent, it was me who beat them and not my fighting style.

If i lost it means that the other person was better at it than me for whatever the reasons may be. Maybe they train harder? Maybe they have more experience? But whatever the case is it does not mean that it is the fault of my fighting system. If I won the same principles apply only reversed.

Blame yourself for your shortcomings and not your fighting style, because it is you who was bested and not your fighting style. A fighting style is like a tool, in the hands of an expert it can do amazing things but in the hands of an inexperienced person it won't get the person very far.

It really dissapoints me that so many people fail to grasp this as it is not complicated especially in a forum dedicated to martial arts.

 

[Hanzou]

These videos and conversations about style vs style are idiotic. I am not sure if I had said this before so if I repeat myself I so apologize.

No one person can represent a fighting style. They can only represent themselves. I told friends of mine too and for awhile they just couldn't get it.

Let's be honest here; One of the reasons you view this conversation as "idiotic" is because it involves a set of styles that you are personally interested in practicing.

Also it's not one person, it's a pattern that has persisted for quite some time. What's the harm in discussing it, and trying to figure out what's going on?

When I spar against someone or fight against someone. It is ME who is doing it, not kenpo, not Judo but ME. So if I lose to a boxer or a wrestler or a goju ryu karateka. That does not mean the other person's fighting style is superior to mine. It is vice versa if I win this fight, it means that I was good enough to best my opponent, it was me who beat them and not my fighting style.

The difference here is that if a boxer gets destroyed by a wrestler we acknowledge that it probably happened because the boxer didn't train grappling. If the wrestler gets knocked out by a boxer we acknowledge that the wrestler needs to develop their striking.

For some reason we can't do the same thing with traditional arts that focus more on forms than fighting. What's wrong with saying that "if you want to fight, you should probably spend more time fighting than doing forms".

If i lost it means that the other person was better at it than me for whatever the reasons may be. Maybe they train harder? Maybe they have more experience? But whatever the case is it does not mean that it is the fault of my fighting system. If I won the same principles apply only reversed.

If your "fighting system" isn't training you how to fight, or is too complex or traditional for you to break down effectively, then yes it is the fault of your fighting system.

 

[Ironbear24]

Let's be honest here; One of the reasons you view this conversation as "idiotic" is because it involves a set of styles that you are personally interested in practicing.

I am not referring to you specifically. Every fighting style has people that are guilty of doing this. How is Kenpo karate and Judo involved here? I don't recall you ever questioning their efficiency, you seem to only target Chinese arts while forever praising anything UFC related. We have our disagreements yes but this is a general statement that does not single you out.

The difference here is that if a boxer gets destroyed by a wrestler we acknowledge that it probably happened because the boxer didn't train grappling. If the wrestler gets knocked out by a boxer we acknowledge that the wrestler needs to develop their striking.

That is a very niche post and not exaclty what I am talking about here. You more or less agreed with me and stated that the individual must work to get improve their weakpoints. What I am referring to is if the boxer were to lose to the wrestler then everyone and their mother starts to claim "wrestling is better than boxing" because a boxer happened to lose to a wrestler.

For some reason we can't do the same thing with traditional arts that focus more on forms than fighting. What's wrong with saying that "if you want to fight, you should probably spend more time fighting than doing forms".

Forms are important in all fighting. Whether you are a grappler or you are striking without forms you get bad technique and bad technique leads to being bad at fighting. If you referring to kata though, as I said before, bjj has no kata so you have no experience doing them.

Kata is not fighting drills or sparing and is only designed to help your form and help you with motions. It also serves as light work outs for when you are injured.

Now if a dojo is doing only kata then you and I are on the same page here. That is no way to train to be a good yet alone competant fighter. It is just one method of training that should be accompanied by sparring among other drills.