Sparring tactic

[FearlessFreep]

In the other thread, I mentioned that one regular opponent of mine tends to just stand and absorb blows. I really don't mean to get down on him too much. He's more advanced than me, but not by much and he's not as obssessive as me. I think basically as we are both beginners, we're not very good at evading, moving, etc.. so just standing there and taking it is probably are only hope I also know I'm a bit faster than him and he might not really have much of a choice...

but as a general strategy question, is there anything you can do to score (Olympic rules, and no shots to the legs) against an opponent who just stands with the arms in protecting the hogu? I mentioned hitting harder and if he leaves his arms in, maybe it will be uncomfortable for him and wear him down. I was wondering if there were other tactics I could use to open him up?

 

[Miles]

Many folks used to kick their opponent's arms if they are holding them down protecting the frontal scoring area of the hogu. In fact, an instructor once told me he taught his students to kick hard enough to break their opponents' arms. :>(

Now that the back is also a scoring area (all except a strip along the spinal column), make sure you and your partner are wearing appropriate hogus (get one of the newer ones) and try kicking the flank/back. We've been playing with different combinations to do this and it really does change your footwork drills.

Good Luck!

Miles

 

[FearlessFreep]

I had a talk with my sabomnim tonight about this topic and he *did* mention using footwork to get around and come in at unexpected angles(some of which I've practiced before)

Also, moving kicks (sidekick, pushkick, kicks that will displace the opponents body) can be used to get them off balance and they will open up naturally as they work to regain balance

 

[Miles]

Excellent! Good Job Jay!

Miles

 

[TX_BB]

Z kick, low/high turning roundhouse. Tripple kick low/low/high. I generally punish people who try to out muscle me with step behind side kick/spinning back kick or with the off the line rndhse.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Z kick

What is that?

 

[TX_BB]

Z kick - short hand for back leg turn kick which lands below the elbow back or belly, retracts with out turning the hip and then shoots for head (jaw)with a full follow thru that sends the kicking foot home without truly retracting. If you were looking at it it kind of looks like a slouching mirrored Z with a left foot execution, slouching Z with a right foot.

 

[bignick]

Now that the back is also a scoring area (all except a strip along the spinal column), make sure you and your partner are wearing appropriate hogus (get one of the newer ones) and try kicking the flank/back. We've been playing with different combinations to do this and it really does change your footwork drills.

From what I understand....as long as your foot hits a legal target it's a legal kick...therefore you could actually shin kick someone in the spine and as long as your foot wraps around and touches the opponents side or back it's legal. I may be mistaken, but that is how I heard the rules interpreted.

Also, is it still legal to hit the back of the thigh as long as you follow up. I've heard that too, and had some success as a lower belt, Just a quick double roundhouse to the back of the thigh and then to chest or head.

 

[Langdow]

From what I understand....as long as your foot hits a legal target it's a legal kick...therefore you could actually shin kick someone in the spine and as long as your foot wraps around and touches the opponents side or back it's legal. I may be mistaken, but that is how I heard the rules interpreted.

I suppose technically you could get away with this; however if the official suspects the alternate intentions of this you could be penalized. I would suggest still trying to hit with the foot on the hogu, if he however moves into it, or turns to it sure won't be your fault if you shin him in the back

Also, is it still legal to hit the back of the thigh as long as you follow up. I've heard that too, and had some success as a lower belt, Just a quick double roundhouse to the back of the thigh and then to chest or head.

Nope, never legal. You may get away with it simply because of the official's experience, however WTF rules clearly say where you can attack under article 11, and also how to penalize under article 14. Personally I may give you a caution if I notice it happen once, but twice I'd probably give a warning. Hope that helps

 

[Adept]

Shoot for his legs, take him to the ground, and pound his teeth into powder...

Being about the strongest, largest guy in the school gives very little room for people to out-muscle me. If they try to stand and take it, I give it out harder than they can. Knock them to the ground or push them backwards. In your case, work the legs. I dont know if it is illegal to kick the legs in your situation, or if you simply dont score there. If you can kick there without scoring, then do it until he lowers his arms reflexively (sp?) and then attack high.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Um..this is olympic-style TKD sparring, so low kicks and kicks to the legs are not legal.

Also, we are both still improving and learning and it's as much learning as anything so improved 'tactics' are desired. I'm hoping to improve my attack, but I also hope he learns better defensive tactics in the process (he's also a friend and the husband of a friend as well...nice guy and I want him to improve and I don't think his current defense is neccessarily very good but I lack the experience to effectively force him to improve...so this question is for stuff I can think about in sparring him and some of the other less experienced students.

I know there is a lot more to fighting than what we do in sparring but at out level it's still a learning process, plus my own inclination it to try to outsmart and outmaneuver someone, not just out-pummel them

FWIW, I've practiced the step-behind side kick before and I'll remember it this week, thanks. Also, I've done the double roundhouse kick (low, high) fairly effectivley but I don't think I have the balance/strength to do a triple reliably.

Thanks for all the ideas (even the ones I can't use

 

[TX_BB]

Try cut kick, same leg Axe kick.

 

[Adept]

Um..this is olympic-style TKD sparring, so low kicks and kicks to the legs are not legal.

Hmm. What hand techniques are open to you?

 

[Marginal]

Hmm. What hand techniques are open to you?

No grabbing, hand attacks are limited to the body etc.

 

[Zepp]

Hmm. What hand techniques are open to you?

Under Olympic rules, you're allowed to punch to the torso, but that's it for hands.

Jay, keep practicing that step-behind sidekick. Also practice the sliding variation (and maybe also the step-in-front sidekick- you might decide you like it better). Once you develop a good sidekick, you'll be able to make him move, one way or another- trust me. Other than that, you'll just have to get better at maneuvering and slipping your strikes inside his guard.

When sparring a lot of newbies, one of the most annoying things they keep doing to me is repeatedly punching my arms (we don't use pads). It seems to take them a few sessions to figure out that they have to actually get around my guard, rather than try to force their way through it. I'm glad to hear that this concept isn't a problem for you.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Hmm. What hand techniques are open to you?

Pretty much just knuckle punches to the torso (no backhands, palm-heel strikes, kife-hand or ridge hand).

This is highly contrived for our sparring. We also do a lot of fighting drills that use techniques that are illegal in sparring but important to be skilled in for open fighting

keep practicing that step-behind sidekick. Also practice the sliding variation (and maybe also the step-in-front sidekick- you might decide you like it better). Once you develop a good sidekick, you'll be able to make him move, one way or another- trust me. Other than that, you'll just have to get better at maneuvering and slipping your strikes inside his guard.

Thanks, that's good advice. My sobomnim also showed me last night that no matter how big your arms are, you can't guard eveything; there *will* be holes in his defense and with good aim, I can get inside those holes. At my level, I really need to improve my aim to take advantage of those holes, but they are there. The sidekick is one we talked about that will get the opponent to move.

It seems to take them a few sessions to figure out that they have to actually get around my guard, rather than try to force their way through it. I'm glad to hear that this concept isn't a problem for you

Actually, when I first started I had the opposite problem of viewing the litte circles on the hogu as the only place to strike

 

[Adept]

Rather than aiming for the holes in his defence, try to create bigger ones. Fenit high and strike low, feint low and strike high, use your timing to hit him when he does not expect it.

If he has a very effective guard, which sounds like the problem, you either need to muscle through it, or work around it.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Well, you nailed it with the 'create bigger ones', which is what I'm going to try to do.

The problem isn't that he has an 'effective' guard. In a way, I guess he does, but it's really that, at his age/experience combination, he doesn't move quickly so he tends not to move at all. Thus, feint's and checks don't work too well because he doesn't bite on them. (I've use the low-high combination effetively against other opponents who would block the first kick, or try to, and open up for the seconf kick) Anything into the target area, he just blocks/absorbs in his arms, anything outside he doesn't really go for (remember, we are still using light-contact and wearing forearm and shin guards so he doesn't really pay a penalty for just standing there, otherwise I would just blast into his foreams with my shins and heels to...educate him...frustrating for me and not good for him in the long run). My initial strategy was to use a lot of double kicks, feints, switch stances, etc..deception and redirection. Like I said, he doesn't naturally react fast enough for this to really work, which is why I've been working on a new strategy

1) Aim - his arms can't really cover the whole target area so I need to pick my targets more carefully and work my repetoire of stricks in for penetration (this, coupled with the realization I need to keep in mind that the whole target area is much larger than I usually think about..he can't guard the floating ribs/kidneys *and* the solar plexus *and*..etc...so I need to think about where I'm striking to)

2) Displacement/Balance - If I can get him off balance, he should open up naturally as he works to regain balance. So I'm thinking 'moving' kicks like spinning back kicks, side kicks, or pushkicks, to get him off balance, followed by a quick roundhouse or other kick to 'score'.

3) Counters-strikes - this would really be a general strategy (remember, I'm new at this so I'm still learning/developing tactics) Just in thinking about opeing things up, today I practiced a lot on using slide-steps as evasions with a follow up sidekick or roundhouse counter-attack. This is probably good strategy anyway, but I haven't been using it much. I know this guy tends to open his defense when he attacks so as I've been thinking about attacking him, I've been thinking about using more evade-and-strike approaches...and practicing my footwork a lot more.


Anyway, thanks for all the feedback and advice. Hopefully I can apply what I can and remember the rest for the future. I *should* see him tomorow night so I'll let you know how it goes

 

[Adept]

If you are finding it hard to score points, then it is an effective guard. You guys are playing with some extremely restrictive rules, so he doesnt have to act like it is a real fight or a serious sparring match. He just has to stop you from scoring, and it sounds like he is doing a good job.

My aim would be to teach him that just because you are only hitting his arms, doesnt mean you cant damage him. The reason people react to feints is because it looks like a real attack. And a real attack frickin hurts, and causes lots of damage. So they try to neutralise it.

If he isnt acting to neutralise your attacks (by evading, blocking, deflecting, whatever) then show him why he SHOULD be. Drive a hard front kick right into the bread basket. Even if he catches it on his guard, it should either knock him down or push him well off balance.

Remember to use timing to your advantage. Most people will subconsiously follow a pattern in their attack and defense. 1, 2, 3. Attack, attack, attack. They see a speed and tempo to the attacks coming in, and match their speed to counter it. So you set up the speed, then attack on the half count. 1, 2, 2.5. Atack, attack, attack.

 

[FearlessFreep]

so he doesnt have to act like it is a real fight or a serious sparring match. He just has to stop you from scoring, and it sounds like he is doing a good job.

Fair enough

Drive a hard front kick right into the bread basket. Even if he catches it on his guard, it should either knock him down or push him well off balance.

That's part of my plan, drive him back and get him off balance and let him know 'hey, this is real'. He's a friend and I want him to learn as well as I want to learn against him

So you set up the speed, then attack on the half count. 1, 2, 2.5. Atack, attack, attack.

Ironically, my instructor and I talked about this very aspect tonight

Good advice, thanks