Sparring and My Difficulty Against Kicks

[pdg]

The point I was making initially was that training to fight (fo realz bro) wasn't my motivation for sparring.

Also, not every technique is directly effective in isolation.

The reactionary kick I described - one kick got caught so I kicked with the other foot. By itself the second kick would not cause damage, but it would score a point.

Because it scored a point, it was contextually effective.

But, in a different situation it might work as a throwaway technique that may make them release my other foot or disguise a punch for instance. So, it's effective without being effective.

Now, I can't find reference to that technique "being TKD", unless I look at it as something like a second generation derivative of another kick.

Does that make it an invalid move?

The majority of stuff I'll do in sparring is extremely pulled to stay within the rules, because "excessive contact" is a thing.

Other stuff, well it won't do much by itself in a damage analysis no matter how you try to throw it, but as part of something bigger?

 

[pdg]

If you are doing techniques that are specifically for point sparring then 9 times out of 10 you aren't doing TKD. The same techniques you train in TKD are the same techniques that you should be using in point sparring but at a lower power

Right, I can see where some of the confusion is coming from.

Some is mine, some is yours.

I can't think of a technique I would use for points that couldn't be 'turned up' or redirected to use in conjunction with something else.


I just choose not to.

So, one could surmise that my sparring is low intensity fight prep, in that if I wanted to I could use all the same stuff, but harder.

 

[pdg]

Oh, and btw - if anyone has a video of TKD that is comparable to that "BJJ" guy doing a dying bug dance, I'd genuinely like to see it.

Y'know, just in case I'm doing the same stuff

 

[JowGaWolf]

Depends how you define "diving" really.

That's a vertical jump and not the same one that was in the video of Raymond Daniels where he dives to punch and then falls because he's off balance. That punch is similar to what that Gorilla did when it jumped in the air and then threw a punch. His jump was also vertical.

I'm not a fan of defining a system by its techniques.

How would you define a martial art system? Jow Ga kung Fu is not the same as Aikido. If not defined by the techniques, then how?

 

[pdg]

That's a vertical jump and not the same one that was in the video of Raymond Daniels where he dives to punch and then falls because he's off balance. That punch is similar to what that Gorilla did when it jumped in the air and then threw a punch. His jump was also vertical

Do you have a link to the Daniels video (or do I have to search myself)?

The jump doesn't have to be vertical, it can make ground too:

 

[Jaeimseu]

Oh, and btw - if anyone has a video of TKD that is comparable to that "BJJ" guy doing a dying bug dance, I'd genuinely like to see it.

Y'know, just in case I'm doing the same stuff

I’d compare the flutter foot technique to that, where a guy stands on one foot and looks like they’re trying to shake off toilet paper from their other foot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JowGaWolf]

Right, I can see where some of the confusion is coming from.

Some is mine, some is yours.

I can't think of a technique I would use for points that couldn't be 'turned up' or redirected to use in conjunction with something else.


I just choose not to.

So, one could surmise that my sparring is low intensity fight prep, in that if I wanted to I could use all the same stuff, but harder.

Correct. That's what I'm trying to get at but with some difficulty. lol

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How can a sport "hurt combat"?

Here is a simple example.

 

[JowGaWolf]

he jump doesn't have to be vertical, it can make ground too:

Correct it can make ground, but notice on that video he doesn't have that forward diving look either. When he lands he'll be in position to cause more damage. He's not going to fall forward because he was leaning too far forward.

Do you have a link to the Daniels video (or do I have to search myself)?

Here are some Raymond Daniel videos. I like to use him because he's actually done MMA compeitition and other full contact competitions.
Raymond Daniel Point Sparring

"Dive punches"

• 0:33
• 0:53
• 1:14
• 1:25
• 1:44
• 2:18
• 3:24
• 3:57
• 4:07

There are probably some more, within the 2 minutes left from this point. As you can see there is a lot of these type of punches being thrown.

Raymond Daniel Professional Fight
You can see his opponent time Raymond Daniel's bouncing. Raymond finishes the fight with a nice kick.

Raymond Highlights
This is from 2017 He has a some full contact fights on youtube.

 

[pdg]

I see what you mean by diving now.

I'd like to think that type of punch wouldn't score (especially if you fall over afterwards, because anything other than feet touching the floor is a foul).

I'll do a jumping punch with or without making ground, but not at the expense of recovery following it - I'll make sure I'm in a position to land and continue.

Part of that could be the type of point sparring 'we' do - it's not point stop, it's continuous.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh, and btw - if anyone has a video of TKD that is comparable to that "BJJ" guy doing a dying bug dance, I'd genuinely like to see it.

Y'know, just in case I'm doing the same stuff

The closest I can think of is a video I saw of a guy hopping along on one leg, chasing his opponent across the mat with kicks. I wish I could think how to search for it, because I found it almost as funny as the BJJ video. In both cases, the essential techniques were from the art - it was the strategy used that was only viable for competition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How would you define a martial art system? Jow Ga kung Fu is not the same as Aikido. If not defined by the techniques, then how?

By the principles. BJJ has "new material" added regularly. NGA didn't originally contain a standard hip throw or shrimping hip escape from mount in the core curriculum. I teach both, and know others (more mainline to the art) who do. I consider them NGA techniques, though they are not found in the documented curriculum. Why? Because they fit with the principles of the art as I see it. Same for a heel-led side kick, hook punch, and single-leg takedown from kneeling. IMO, the core techniques of an art are there for teaching the principles. Once you learn them (the principles) and are operating on them, rather than on a syllabus, new material fits within the art.

I also recognize that defining an art is somewhat a matter of symantics. There's some overlap between Judo and NGA. There's some overlap between Ueshiba's Aikido and NGA (but not so much with Judo). NGA also has a large overlap with Shotokan Karate. Depending upon what an instructor emphasizes within the art, it will look more like one thing than another, but can still be the same art. BJJ could have just been called Jiu Jutsu (back when that's the name many knew Judo by). It's a valid subset of Judo at its start, probably with some material borrowed from elsewhere, but using the basic Judo principles as the core from what I see. The emphasis is different, so it looks different, but if the founders of BJJ had chosen to, they could have simply kept it named with the art it primarily draws from (could even have followed the Judo name), and it would be seen as a branch of that art, rather than a derivative of it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here is a simple example.

That's a picture. What's the point of it? That sport isn't hurting combat.

 

[pdg]

So continuing from previous posts of mine...

Some of the confusion I can see that I've caused, possibly with the terminology I use or my interpretation of what others have said.

For instance, point sparring.

Going off the videos posted, that's not what I've been talking about with sparring for points.

I'm blinkered by what I do, as in while we spar for points we don't reset after each point, there's no looking over to the judge(s) after every punch/kick to see if it scored.

Sparring in the class environment is also continuous, but there's nobody keeping score unless we choose to do it amongst ourselves.

Oh, and also apologies to the OP for any part I've played in the ever so slight thread drift

 

[JowGaWolf]

So continuing from previous posts of mine...

Some of the confusion I can see that I've caused, possibly with the terminology I use or my interpretation of what others have said.

For instance, point sparring.

Going off the videos posted, that's not what I've been talking about with sparring for points.

I'm blinkered by what I do, as in while we spar for points we don't reset after each point, there's no looking over to the judge(s) after every punch/kick to see if it scored.

Sparring in the class environment is also continuous, but there's nobody keeping score unless we choose to do it amongst ourselves.

Oh, and also apologies to the OP for any part I've played in the ever so slight thread drift

when I was learning karate. Our point sparring was continuous. We has a limited amount of time to get in strikes. The person who had the most strikes "won." I enjoyed that type of sparring as a kid. I think it made me a little aggressive though, when someone hits you 4 times then you have to really put the pressure on to catch up. The only breaks I can remember may be the ones that were done for safety reasons. I'm only guessing because I do remember the instructor pulling me off someone and then reset. I just don't know if it was done for safety or if it was done because my karate started to turn into random and blind punching with no no technique. I won a lot of medals back then, but wasn't mature enough not to lose them.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Same for a heel-led side kick, hook punch, and single-leg takedown from kneeling.

Things like this would be basic techniques, that all martial arts systems will have. I find it difficult to believe that a founder will make a system that couldn't do some of these things. They may not be trained frequently, but it's difficult to see a fighting system with no method of being able to attack with a punch or a kick. How would someone effectively train the application if the student couldn't give a good punch or kick? How would someone be able to develop a system that is able to counter those type of punches if someone didn't know how to punch?

How would you a system develop to deal with kicks if they couldn't kick each other well enough to create a functional technique to use against a kick?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Things like this would be basic techniques, that all martial arts systems will have. I find it difficult to believe that a founder will make a system that couldn't do some of these things. They may not be trained frequently, but it's difficult to see a fighting system with no method of being able to attack with a punch or a kick. How would someone effectively train the application if the student couldn't give a good punch or kick? How would someone be able to develop a system that is able to counter those type of punches if someone didn't know how to punch?

How would you a system develop to deal with kicks if they couldn't kick each other well enough to create a functional technique to use against a kick?

You missed my point. There are 10 kicks in the standard NGA curriculum, and about 7 (depending how you count them) hand strikes. Those I listed are not among them, but are part of the NGA that I teach. Same with the basic hip throw (though the Classical techniques include 3 related throws). See, you referred to a "system that couldn't do these things" - that's kind of my point. The system is just the principles and an approach to teaching them (via selected techniques). Other techniques may or may not fit within that system, and basic techniques tend to fit within many different systems. So, while I know a hip throw first as a Judo technique, and if you asked for an NGA technique I doubt anyone would mention that basic hip throw, it's still within NGA.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

How would you define a martial art system? Jow Ga kung Fu is not the same as Aikido. If not defined by the techniques, then how?

Physical principles, tactical doctrine, and pedagogy are more useful for defining an art than a list of techniques (especially for arts like BJJ which have an ever expanding and evolving repertoire).

Things like this would be basic techniques, that all martial arts systems will have.

You might think so, but I can easily name arts which don't have those specific techniques.

They may not be trained frequently, but it's difficult to see a fighting system with no method of being able to attack with a punch or a kick.

Note - Gerry listed a specific type of punch, a specific type of kick, and a specific type of takedown, not punches, kicks, and takedowns in general.

How would someone effectively train the application if the student couldn't give a good punch or kick? How would someone be able to develop a system that is able to counter those type of punches if someone didn't know how to punch?

How would you a system develop to deal with kicks if they couldn't kick each other well enough to create a functional technique to use against a kick?

Excellent question, and yet I see it all the time. Perhaps the most common is "anti-grappling", where people who have no clue of how to do takedowns or ground-fighting teach defenses against those attacks. You can also Aikido practitioners demonstrating defenses against strikes from ukes who don't know how to punch or kick. (This may not have been so much of an issue in the early days of Aikido, when many of the pioneers already knew how to strike from their background in other arts.) A more subtle version of the problem is in arts which do teach punches and kicks, instructors teaching ineffective* counters to a different style of striking (typically boxing) that they don't understand.

*(Sometimes the techniques themselves aren't necessarily ineffective, but the practice is because the students can't properly replicate the unfamiliar attacks. I've been in WT classes taught by @yak sao and his son where we covered "anti-boxing" methods. The tactics were valid, but none of the other students could present an accurate boxing attack to work off of. This can lead to a false sense of security. My training partner was having trouble executing the techniques, even though I was feeding the pre-set attacks slowly and without guile, because I was using proper form and he didn't have the right timing to pull off the technique. The instructor, yak sao's son, ended up telling me not to recompose my guard after feeding the attacks so that my partner could get the feel of "winning" the exchange. I don't think that was doing my partner any favors.)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's a picture. What's the point of it? That sport isn't hurting combat.

To assume that your opponent wont

- punch your head in pure wrestling, or
- catch your kicking leg and sweep you down in TKD match

are both wrong training.

The more you train in those sport, the less alert you will have, the less combat ability you will develop.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You missed my point. There are 10 kicks in the standard NGA curriculum, and about 7 (depending how you count them) hand strikes. Those I listed are not among them, but are part of the NGA that I teach. Same with the basic hip throw (though the Classical techniques include 3 related throws). See, you referred to a "system that couldn't do these things" - that's kind of my point. The system is just the principles and an approach to teaching them (via selected techniques). Other techniques may or may not fit within that system, and basic techniques tend to fit within many different systems. So, while I know a hip throw first as a Judo technique, and if you asked for an NGA technique I doubt anyone would mention that basic hip throw, it's still within NGA.

ok ok. I understand now.