Some Advice from a 7 Year Old

[Kung Fu Wang]

My Sifu and my Sigung refused to teach children.

Both of my SC teacher and my long fist teacher had never taught any children in their lifetime.

I believe CMA teacher may treat this differently. For a CMA teacher to accept a student, the student has to show the "learning desire" first. Since most kids don't have strong learning desire, they can't even meet the basic requirement.

Old saying said, "A student spends 3 years to find a teacher. The teacher then spends 3 years to investigate that student. Both then start to have class 师访徒三年，徒访师三年".

The reason that

- student spends 3 years to find a teacher is to make sure that teacher has something worthwhile of learning.
- teacher spends 3 years to investigate that student is to make sure that student is a good person and has strong desire of learning.

Today, nobody does this anymore.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I believe CMA teacher may treat this differently. For a CMA teacher to accept a student, the student has to show the "learning desire" first. Since most kids don't have strong learning desire, they can't even meet the basic requirement.

A formative movie for me (hence my nom de plume) was Iron and Silk. The Chinese Master asks, "Can you eat bitter?" and the foreigner is confused.

The reality is TKD for the most part is martial arts for the masses...of all abilities. So most often schools accept everyone, then filter the best into the "high performance" classes.

That reality was the basis of my opening post.

FYI,the foreigner asking the Chinese Master to train him is at 12:40 - 13:20..

 

[Oily Dragon]

A formative movie for me (hence my nom de plume) was Iron and Silk. The Chinese Master asks, "Can you eat bitter?" and the foreigner is confused.

The reality is TKD for the most part is martial arts for the masses...of all abilities. So most often schools accept everyone, then filter the best into the "high performance" classes.

That reality was the basis of my opening post.

FYI,the foreigner asking the Chinese Master to train him is at 12:40 - 13:20..

What a great, underrated, and forgotten movie.

One of my favorite books. Thank you for reminding me.

Grandmaster Pan!!!

 

[Oily Dragon]

asking the Chinese Master to train him is at 12:40 - 13:20..

I can't give you enough Likes, Loves, or Agrees, for bringing my mind back to Pan Qingfu on this particular day.

There are no accidents, Dan.

 

[JowGaWolf]

. For a CMA teacher to accept a student, the student has to show the "learning desire" first

Which is why you market to those type of kids. Most kids have a strong learning desire. They absorb new stuff like plants absorb the sun. But they are also like adults. They don't like everything. I took piano lessons as a kid for 3 years. I hated every minute of it. I didn't like the piano. I wanted to be a trumpet player like my uncle but my mom didn't want that for me. I was a terrible piano student but I probably would have made a good trumpet player because that's what I wanted. Martial arts is like this for kids. Uou worst students will be the ones who don't want to be there in the first place.

Old saying said, "A student spends 3 years to find a teacher. The teacher then spends 3 years to investigate that student. Both then start to have class 师访徒三年，徒访师三年".

Probably it took this long because of all the fakes out there it's easier to join a bad martial arts school than to join a good one and that's on us as teachers.

A good reputation makes an easier sell and a shorter search.

Today, nobody does this anymore

People who want to learn how to actually use martial arts still do this. It's not done if the only thing the student wants is to learn a form or have a black belt.

It's like buying a car. Are you looking for something to just get you from point A or point B? Or are you looking for something more? To find a car that will get you from point A to B is easy and doesn't require a lot of time to buy. If you are looking for more then it will take you longer to find what you really want.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Nobody bothers me anymore. I LOVE the Martial Arts!”"

Reading this discussion reminded me of these commercials I used to see when I was growing up.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Reading this discussion reminded me of these commercials I used to see when I was growing up.

That's target marketing right there. Notice it's the kids saying it and not the adults. You know what else kids like yo say "leave me alone". Lol

Oh kids and MJ. He wrote a song about it. Lol

 

[Oily Dragon]

That's target marketing right there.

The technical term is "ear worm" and now I can't stop singing this around my place. My roomies are looking at me funny again.

It's OK though, tonight I made surf and turf (crushed garlic and black pepper tenderloin steaks, and smoked lemon scallops).

It replaced "Spooky Scary Skeletons", which is exactly how earworms work. One replaces the other. Thank god.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Couple of observations and clarifications.

First, I think it's important to distinguish between marketing a product and developing a product. The two are related, but are not at all the same thing. How you market a product is strictly sales. While it's easier to market a product that is high quality, people sell crap all the time. Martial arts is no different.

Second, I agree with those in this thread who talk about the tangible benefits of martial arts training for kids. In my opinion, it's healthy, honest, and appropriate to emphasize the gross motor skills that kids will develop. By all means, highlight the exercise and structure. Self defense? I don't know... that to me seems sketchy. I don't think there's anything unique to martial arts in that area. Or said the other way, I believe that participating in many/most other sports or clubs is just as effective at helping kids deal with bullies as martial arts. There is nothing intrinsic to martial arts that makes it better than any other activity in this area. I've explained this in more detail in the past, and am happy to elaborate now, if anyone cares to hear it. But the bottom line is that marketing the self defense elements, in my opinion, is just sales, and has nothing to do with the actual product. It implies or overtly states that martial arts is better than X activity, when the reality is that it is not. Note that this doesn't mean that participating in martial arts is bad or doesn't help at all. Only that it is no better or worse than any other activity of similar quality.

Third, I think the most effective programs for kids focus on fun, exercise, community, and participation in some kind of sport. The real world lessons that kids learn from BJJ, Judo, TKD, wrestling, etc are EXACTLY the same real world benefits they would learn from football, baseball, soccer, or any other sport. So, it's not about finding the kids who are going to take it seriously. In my opinion, that's a self defeating goal. Some will; most won't, and that's okay. Kids may try it and fall in love with it right away. Most will try it, along with about a dozen other things and that's okay two. The benefits gained are not about commiting to martial arts. Rather, the benefits come from participating in something, whether it's one thing for four years, or four things in four years.

Lastly, all of that presumes there is some actual, tangible product being delivered. Self-defense isn't an actual thing. It's an abstract. Discipline, respect, courtesy, etc... those are not products. They are abstracts. If you don't have a tangible skill being taught and applied, you undermine many of the very lessons that could be learned. The respect, work ethic, discipline, integrity, etc, don't exist in a vacuum. For kids, this (IMO) needs to be very concrete and involve clear, tangible goals and lots of feedback on performance. They get this from any competently run sport. They also get this from any band or orchestra, the chess club, or pretty much any other competently run activity for kids.

While I agree with your overall statement, Steve, I think you've overstated part of the issue - perhaps just semantics, though. If that's the case, just dismiss this post as nipicking.

You say that MA doesn't have an advantage over "any other activity" in dealing with bullies, but I think that's clearly not the case. Certainly, there are other activities that may do as well, so perhaps "all other activities" would be what you meant? My point is that a kid who trained BJJ, for instance, gets the actual defensive benefits on top of just the confidence and other benefits that might prevent bullying. There are many fewer activities that can provide that defensive benefit (something like football or rugby could easily be argued to do so, but not really tennis, IMO).

That also goes to you comment about the self-defense benefits of MA. If you're training reasonable fighting skills, you're going to be better equipped to deal with the bully who makes it physical (even if "deal with" just means not being rattled by it) than someone who hasn't, in most ways. Again, something very physical like American football or rugby might serve as well (especially in not being rattled by it getting physical), but it's hard to argue that reasonable MA training doesn't help in that area.

Of course, this also assumes when we say "self-defense" we're actually talking about defending against a physical attack, and not the skills used to prevent and avoid them (which MA isn't inherently good for). If you're talking about those aspects, I defnitely agree.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's not for everyone. It requires a lot of patience, encouragement, cheerleading, acceptance of imperfection and restraint. I always had to becareful how I said things and how I compared things. wwe often hear people say that children steal out energy and I think I think it's because adults have do a lot just to help kids maintain stability while helping them to grow. Parents like it because they can see that someone other than them cares about their child's growth.

Most people who enjoy many years of teaching kids just have a natural talent for connecting with them. My brother is like that. The kids at his school painted a mural of him at the high-school where he works. Some people just have the gift.

My problem is really just that it doesn't interest me. My ADHD brain doesn't do well at things that can't hold my interest. I was good at teaching kids when it was a new thing for me. The longer I did it, the less I was able to improve (because my brain just didn't want to), so the less sense it made to continue. I was never going to be more than a mediocre teacher of kids.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

What a great, underrated, and forgotten movie.

One of my favorite books. Thank you for reminding me.

Grandmaster Pan!!!

View attachment 30255

My point is that a kid who trained BJJ, for instance, gets the actual defensive benefits on top of just the confidence and other benefits that might prevent bullying.

Sometimes, the defence is people just respecting you more by the fact that you train.

Putting the 2 posts above together, Mark Saltzman talked about being the small kid in school. He joined a local Kung Fu school where the instructor had no qualms going 100% with students in "graveyard sparring". A video of him talking about the instructor is below.

In any event, he starts training there and the school bully approaches him a few months later and says, "I hear you are studying kung fu"

And Mark thinks "oh crap. He's going to make the point that he can still beat me up...and will."

Instead, the bully says, "Man, you must be tough. My brother joined there and quit after a week."

 

[Oily Dragon]

Oh man, you're making me miss my first kung fu school...there is nothing like breaking your body like that the first time around (and it never gets easier as you age).

And yeah...most kids can't handle true kung fu. It's not like a lot of other arts.

That dude was Thomas St. Charles. RIP. He passed a few years ago. I really wish there was more video out there of him. Thomas St. Charles (1943 - 2017) - Obituary

Pretty sure this is him doing a spear set...the level of skill is off the charts.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Also should mention, St. Charles' lineage is still one of my biggest personal kung fu mysteries.

Pai Lum Tao...does not mean "White Dragon Way". I know I posted something about this years ago here, but if anybody knows why the hell they're using "lum" for dragon, I'd love to know.

Great, great, legitimate blended style of kung fu and other arts...but "lum" just does not mean dragon in any form or dialect of Chinese. Is it some sort of Asian/Polynesian language thing? Or an inside joke of Grandmaster Pai? If so, it's really funny.

 

[Gyakuto]

Lum might be a mishearing of ‘lung’

 

[Oily Dragon]

Lum might be a mishearing of ‘lung’

Yeah but this is not a small school, it's one of the most famous in the world. And every other kung fu school on earth uses "loong" and doesn't make that mistake.

And the guy who brought it to the states, Daniel K. Pai, happens to share a last name that means "white" and wouldn't (shouldn't) have made that mistake. Somebody would have noticed. The guy who taught me kung fu speaks a lot of Cantonese and would never let me get away with "lum". He still corrects me when I say "kung", lol, or overpronounce the "c" in Tai (j)chi.

I think it might be a joke of his...maybe he told people Pai Lum Tao meant "White Dragon Way" but it's literally also "Pai's Path through the Forest".

Kung fu is full of these little linguistic easter eggs.

 

[Buka]

Reading through this entire thread, it really seems like some of you just don't like kids. Nothing wrong with this at all, as long as you aren't involved with any programs for kids. 😅

Those are the small, loud sticky things, right?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

That's target marketing right there. Notice it's the kids saying it and not the adults. You know what else kids like yo say "leave me alone". Lol

Oh kids and MJ. He wrote a song about it. Lol

Jeez.

 

[Steve]

While I agree with your overall statement, Steve, I think you've overstated part of the issue - perhaps just semantics, though. If that's the case, just dismiss this post as nipicking.

You say that MA doesn't have an advantage over "any other activity" in dealing with bullies, but I think that's clearly not the case.

Jumping in right here. Is it clearly the case? I disagree. It's only the case if fighting skills are particularly important. Forgive me, guys, but it really seems like you have an antiquated idea of what bullying looks like in the 2020s. Bullying today is way more likely to be emotional, social, and/or psychological. Even where a kid is being physically bullied, learning skills to fight is no more (or less) helpful than being able to throw a football or play the clarinet. The benefits of participating in organized activities is universal, regardless of the specific activity.

Certainly, there are other activities that may do as well, so perhaps "all other activities" would be what you meant? My point is that a kid who trained BJJ, for instance, gets the actual defensive benefits on top of just the confidence and other benefits that might prevent bullying. There are many fewer activities that can provide that defensive benefit (something like football or rugby could easily be argued to do so, but not really tennis, IMO).

Confidence... you're on to something there. Confidence, self esteem, community, mentorship, coaching... these things help kids handle bullying. And it has very little to do with how good an individual kid is at whatever it is they're doing. They can fully enjoy the ancillary benefits mentioned above, even if they stink at the actual activity.

That also goes to you comment about the self-defense benefits of MA. If you're training reasonable fighting skills, you're going to be better equipped to deal with the bully who makes it physical (even if "deal with" just means not being rattled by it) than someone who hasn't, in most ways. Again, something very physical like American football or rugby might serve as well (especially in not being rattled by it getting physical), but it's hard to argue that reasonable MA training doesn't help in that area.

My opinions are pretty simple, and if you go back to the various threads over the years, I've been very consistent.

1. If you're going to learn something... anything... you need to do that thing. If you want to get better at something... anything... you need to actually apply what you learn and make real world mistakes. Otherwise, the best you can ever hope to achieve is to be a functional beginner.
2. Knowing how to fight is not a bad thing. Don't get me wrong. But if you want to learn to fight, see above.
3. If being safer is your goal, there are so many things a person can do to mitigate real world risk other than learning to fight. There have been several threads over the years where I've gone into this idea in detail.
4. Sometimes, it's just bad or good luck, and we tend to blame the victim for bad luck and congratulate the system for good luck. I think neither is all that helpful or constructive.

Of course, this also assumes when we say "self-defense" we're actually talking about defending against a physical attack, and not the skills used to prevent and avoid them (which MA isn't inherently good for). If you're talking about those aspects, I defnitely agree.

Exactly. Further, fighting skills that MA may (or may not) be all that good at teaching are functionally irrelevant if you're talking about real world bullies.

Edit: There is one other related point that I've made over the years. While it's relatively unimportant (IMO) how good a kid is at the activity, it's important that they're learning and practicing actual skills. For example, it doesn't really matter how good an individual kid is at wrestling, it's important that they are learning and practicing useful wrestling skills. I believe "self defense" martial arts schools generally drop the ball in this area if they state or even imply that fighting skills are being learned.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If being safer is your goal, there are so many things a person can do to mitigate real world risk other than learning to fight. There have been several threads over the years where I've gone into this idea in detail.

Not necessarily disagreeing with anything you're saying here, but I will note that I've been in multiple scenarios where having the confidence that I could fight effectively if I had to helped me to stay calm, make rational decisions, and handle things through other methods (de-escalation, avoidance, etc).

 

[Steve]

Not necessarily disagreeing with anything you're saying here, but I will note that I've been in multiple scenarios where having the confidence that I could fight effectively if I had to helped me to stay calm, make rational decisions, and handle things through other methods (de-escalation, avoidance, etc).

100%. Being able to fight isn't a bad thing. But is it the main thing? Early in my career, I had people threaten me with knives, threaten to come back and shoot me, and dealt with all kinds of physical threats to me and my staff. Granted, it's a specific context, but the threats were real. At the time I was dealing with most of this, I didn't even know what BJJ was. I had wrestled and taken 2 years of Wing Chun classes in high school. And yet, I also stayed calm, I think I made rational decisions, and was able to deescalate the situations.

All that to say, you make a great point. What I'm suggesting is that you are highlighting one way to get to some skills that aren't about fighting. There are other ways to get there.

And to be clear, if things went south, I'm sure you would have been much more capable than me... but then again, luck plays a role, too. So maybe not.