Sokeship Council, Grandmaster or NOT????

[kenpojujitsu]

Authentication is just that, authentication

Darrell Collins
Kamishinkan Dojo

And what is the difference between "authentication" and "verification".

When I say that Guy Power "verified the sokeship of Albert Church" I am accused of attacking him.

When you say that Guy Power " authenticated the soekship of Albert Church" you are defending him.

 

[kamishinkan]

I think the main difference is that the authentication is of the scroll. It was Kuniba sensei that authenticated Church sensei's Soke position.
One authenticates the title, the other authenticates that scroll.

May seem slight but there is a difference

I am late for class, got to go!

Darrell Collins
Kamishinkan Dojo

 

[kenpojujitsu]

There is no difference.

Kuniba would have to have first translated the original documents and done research to verify the existence of the original art, etc. Then issue an opinion.

Guy Power translated the parts of the scroll that he was given and issued an opinion.

Again, though, all we habve to do is have someone bring Mr. Power hear to say either that Albert Church was a soke and Ted Petit is a soke, or say that they are not.

If he states that they were not, I will apologize to him.

If he's going to try and sit on the fence and say things like "I authenticated the sokeship but did not verify it", then that still leaves some questions open.

I personally would be quite saddened to see a man of Mr. Powers reputation be lessened by this "sokeship" business. So I wish he will just come out and settle it once and for all.

I have already stated nunmerous times that due to his reputation I will accept his word. That is not attacking the man, that is praising him.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

One more thing.

Mr Power may not have issued a hand written scroll. But his name is all over the dosuments on the web sites.

When it comes right down to it, what's the difference between him writing dozens of emails and posting on his web site, that he authenticated the sokeship scroll, and issuing a scroll or letter saying the same thing?

There is no difference.

The claim is that Kuniba created a document stating that he examined the documents that recognize Church.

Guy Power has created e-documents that state that he examined the documents that recognize Church.

The ISHH claims that they examined the "Power Documents" that authenticate Church and created more documents to that affect.

All 3 did the same thing. Allegedly - you still have the word of Kuniba and his family that the scroll is not authentic.

The only people claiming to have verfied anything is the ISHH and Mr. Power's supporters. Unless Mr. Power now says he did not.

 

[George Kohler]

After seeing what Mr. kenpojujitsu (don't really know what his real name is) was saying, I determined that this person was a agenda troll. I asked him some simple questions like who he was, where he was located, what arts he trained in and his teacher's name that I could verify. If he didn't answer the questions that I could verify I told him that I would ban him. Well, he didn't answer the question that I COULD VERIFY. He would have been banned anyway for not signing his posts. He had well over 17 times he didn't sign his name.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

Not so. All questions were answered.
What did you want me to do, send you my drivers license and Social Security card?
There were some posts not signed by me because I forgot to set up the signature in the profile. But it is obvious they were from me as other posts in the same thread were signed. The moderator asked me to make sure I set up my signature, and I did. I then went on posting in numerous other threads for several days.

Also, please tell us where my "agenda is"? I asked a question and got a satisfactory answer. Other people came back and pointed out that Guy Power did fact authenticate the sokeship of Albert Church.

All I did then was agree that Guy Power is a reputable scholar and I place a very high value on his word. This statement was seen as an attack on him and I was banned.

 

[George Kohler]

Here is what I asked:

please fill out all of your profile, including who your teacher is, art you study or have studied, and where you are located.

And this is what you wrote:

I am an independent student of Kenpo-Jujutsu and Danzan Ryu Jujitsu.
I have no ranks or titles and no agenda other than to learn something.

 

[George Kohler]

Here are all the negative comments to Mr. Powers:

This is astounding. I guess everyone sells out eventually...

This whole thing is baffling and is looking like a big black eye for Mr. Power at the end of his career...

Guy Power is in the Sokeship business now...

Now Guy Power has tied himself to them and Soke Petit in legitmizing his sokeship. That puts him in the soekship business...

It is sad to see someone of Mr. Power's reputation brought down to this level. But like they say, when you lie down with dog's you get fleas. Mr Power seems to have moved into the kennel on this one...

I'll let everyone else decide.

All Mr. Powers did was translate portions of the scroll and a menjo and compare handwritting.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

Like I said, that is what a Sokeship Council does. They review credentials and say whether or not they are legitimate.

Guy Power is an accepted expert on matters of budo and Japanese translation. I recognize his solid reputation and scholarship.

He has declared that Soke Albert Church is a legitmate Soke. That is good enough for me and should be good enough for everyone else.

Many people will be upset because his declaration has changed the idea of the "American Sokeship Council". But that is the way it is. It's sad, but true.

Now the same people who were upset because I accepted the statement that Mr. Power did not authenticate this sokeship are upset because I now agree with them because I accept that he did. It can't be both ways.

He either did or did not. If he did, then the ISHH has gained a great deal of legitimacy. If he did not, then he needs to correct this.

Originally, it was a friend of his that cleared his name. Then his other "friends" came here and dug this hole and dropped him in it. Only he can not clear this up and answe the question: Was Albert Church a legitimate Soke or not?

 

[George Kohler]

Whatever. You still don't get it.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

The problem you have is that I DO get it.
What is the difference between

A) some sokeship board saying:
"I have examined the documents and authenticate that Albert Church is Soke"
and
B) Guy Power saying:
"I have examined the documents and authenticate that Albert Church is Soke"

There is no difference. In this case, if what you all - NOT ME! YOU! are saying is true, then Guy Power and the ISHH are serving in the same capacity.

If Guy Power authenticated the Sokeship, then the ISHH has that much more legitmacy.

If you are saying that Guy Power did not authenticate the Sokeship, then the ISHH, and Albert Church suffer another setback.

Which is it. Did he or did not? And please stop trying to tell me both. Pick an answer and stick to it.

 

[Flying Crane]

Like I said, that is what a Sokeship Council does. They review credentials and say whether or not they are legitimate.

Many people will be upset because his declaration has changed the idea of the "American Sokeship Council".

I would suggest that what this person, or anyone else declares, actually does little to have "changed the idea of the 'American Sokeship Council'".

I suspect that most people regard these councils as little more than a bunch of people with big egos and a hunger for power. A Soke title seems to scratch that itch, so they get together and "recognize" each other.

I will never believe that any individual has such a strong reputation, respect, and influence in the martial arts community that simply adding his rubber stamp to an American Sokeship Council will somehow "legitimize" the council, or the very idea of the council.

These people may very well be extremely talented and innovative martial artists, and influential in their area of expertise, but I believe that anyone who is not a direct member of their bandwagon couldn't give a rat's butt one way or the other about their claims to sokeship.

Within their own organization and circle of friends they can use whatever titles they want for themselves, their followers, and their friends. But outside those circles, I really believe that very few people care at all.

On another note, It seems that this discussion has been going in circles. The same arguments are being laid out over and over and it goes nowhere because the different parties have made up their minds to disagree, but still try to convice the other. It doesn't seem like anyone is willing to be convinced. Sometimes it is time to walk away from a neverending, never changing argument that will never be resolved. Agree to disagree, and then leave it alone.

I am just making these observations as an outsider, as I have no ties to any side in this argument. Just my two cents.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

And a very valuable 2 cents it is.
I found an email address for Guy Power's dojo and asked him to reply.
We'll see if he does.

 

[George Kohler]

Here is Mr. Powers reply to Kenpojujitsu.

Thanks for the heads-up, George!

Please tell that ill-informed and ill-dispositioned person (you may quote me in part or in full from the following) that he does not know what he is talking about. The difference between a "Soke Council" and me is that I am not in the "Soke Business" and I do not certify soi-disant "sokes".
I translate documents and tell if they were written by someone skilled in Japanese writing, or by someone who doesn't know a thing about Japanese and is incorrectly using/writing kanji/kana.
Based on independent handwriting samples, I determined that a document was written by Kuniba sensei in which he writes, circa 1969 (in Japanese), "...Albert C. Church, Soke of Kamishin ryu, is my US Representative...." [By the way, this document gives lie to his 1987 letter to Mr. Sarchanowski in which he states he never appointed Mr. Church as his rep.]
Mr. Kenpojutsu is looking at the results of my analysis and is erroneously infering something that is not implied. He is confusing the translator for the author. If Mr. Kenpojutsu cannot tell the difference between "I certify that this is a correct translation" and "I certify Albert C. Church, Jr. as a Soke of Kamishinryu" -- then the lad certainly should study "research methods" when he goes to university.

Thanks and never forget:
Rangers Lead the Way!!!!
--HoooAhhh!!!

 

[kenpojujitsu]

So then we have it.
Albert Church was a legitmate Soke, Tedt Petit is a legitmate Soke and the ISHH is a legitmate Sokeship organization.

Thank you for clearing that up.

 

[Flatlander]

I have a couple of questions here.

Is the 1987 letter to Mr. Sarchanowski authenticate? If so, it casts doubt on the validity of the 1969 Kuniba document referencing Albert C. Church's sokeship.

Pardon my ignorance of the topic, but what art was Kuniba sensei a master of?

 

[ghp]

Kenpojutsu,

I am away from my notes of the translation but will endeavour to post my copy tomorrow.

As far as I recall, the first couple of lines of the scroll state something to the effect:

SEI [a large seal for Seishinkan]
Instructor License

I, Kuniba Shogo, president of the International Combined Martial Arts Federation and Soke of Motobu-ha Shito Ryu, appoint Albert C. Church (Kanda Takashi), the Kamishin Ryu Soke, as my representative to the United States ...."

I have compared three or four Kuniba documents -- from different sources -- to base my analysis upon. Anybody -- not just a Japanese linguist -- can see the brushwork is the same. I will stake my reputation that the second-generation copy of the "Kuniba Scroll" that I translated was written by Kuniba Shogo.

Yes, Kuniba sensei later denied he wrote a scroll -- I can only imagine his actions as being "damage control" after the Church-Sacharnowski and Church/Baillegeron battles; which were either in full swing, or a too-near unpleasant memory.

Kuniba sensei also wrote a letter to Rod Sacharnowski answering (I presume) five questions asked by Rod. Kuniba sensei admits he taught iai to Mr. Church, he also admits (if I recall) that he taught him karate. He denies teaching Mr. Church jujutsu; and he denies creating Mr. Church a soke, stating "Mr. Church did that himself." However, Mr. Kuniba still wrote the scroll and described Mr. Church as the Soke of Kamishinryu.
and Kuniba sensei still wrote a menjo naming Mr. Church as a shihan of "Kamishinkai Jujutsu" (or similar words -- again, I'm not with my notes).

You directly cast aspersions on my integrity by implying that I cannot be trusted because I was a former student of Mr. Church. You are terribly mistaken. I aproached this research as a skeptic because of the politics, ill-will, and deceptions on many sides. In my later budo life I learned "soke councils" aren't done in Japan, and I had many concerns (later) about Mr. Church's qualifications. As I conducted this research I would not attach any importance to the statements made or written by Mr. Church -- I would use only independent sources. I needed to see documentation. If Mr. Church told me he was a 3rd dan in Iaido (which he did tell me) -- I would not enter that rank into my research unless I saw documentation. And I did see documentation, albeit second-generation copies. You are correct when you state that original documents are the best source for research. But you are incorrect to believe that only primary sources can verify facts. Secondary documentation, taken from independent sources, can also be entered into the record.

Some of the images that I used for translation were taken from photographs offered by former students, often showing them standing next to the certificates in the dojo. Some certificates were easily readable when enlarged or enhanced in photoshop; others were not legible.

I also used a photocopy of a letter Mr. Church sent to "Mr C2". Mr. "C2" was dubious of Mr. Church's ranks, etc., so Mr. Church sent him a letter with photocopies-of-photographs of his documents from Kuniba and Hayashi sensei-gata. That was the source for the Kuniba Scroll translation (let's just forget for a moment that I have actually held both the Kuniba Scroll and the Koh Scroll and have seen them unrolled -- they DO exist). A copy of the Church letter to Mr. "C2" was recently given to Ted Petit when he and "C2" were talking about something entirely different. I think Ted said, "Oh, if only I could get a photo of the scroll!" And Mr. "C2" said "Photo? Let me tell you what I've got in my files!"

The translation I posted on E-budo gives about 15%-20% of the full Kuniba Scroll. I have translated perhaps 60% of the scroll, the remainder being illegible due to poor copy quality. Can I swear in a court of law that this photocopy is a true representative of the scroll I held in my hands -- the one that Mr. Church unrolled in front of my eyes? No, I cannot. However, I can swear that it strongly reminds me of that scroll; and, I will state for the record that in no way could Mr. Church have written the scroll; he didn't know kanji, or brush stroke; he even didn't know hiragana or katagana (had to use a graph in a dictionary). I can also swear -- after comparing multiple different exemplars of known Kuniba handwriting:
I believe 100% that the scroll was written by Kuniba Shogo.

--Guy Power

 

[ghp]

I have a couple of questions here.

Is the 1987 letter to Mr. Sarchanowski authenticate? If so, it casts doubt on the validity of the 1969 Kuniba document referencing Albert C. Church's sokeship.

Pardon my ignorance of the topic, but what art was Kuniba sensei a master of?

The letter is authentic -- it is one of the exemplars I used to determine the 1969 scroll was authentic. The 1987 letter is probably "damage control."

--Guy

 

[ghp]

... but what art was Kuniba sensei a master of?

Shitoryu karate -- "Motobu-ha Shito Ryu" to be specific. His father, Kokuba Kosei, was a student under Motobu Choki sensei. http://www.shitoryu.org.uk/kuniba.html

He supposedly held 5th dan in Mugai Ryu Iai, but I'm not sure of the ranking.

--Guy Power

 

[ghp]

Is there any way to post images from my hard drive?

Kuniba Scroll Translation:
==============================

[Large Organization Seal] Sei

[Medium Organization Seal] Seishinkai Kokusai Sogo Budo Renmei

1. SEISHINKAN KOKUSAI SHIDO-IN
Seishinkan International Instructor

2. NINKA SHOMEISHO
License Certification

3. Watakushi, Seishinkan Kokusai Sogo Budo Renmei sousai
I, president of the Seishinkan International Combined Martial Ways Federation and

4. Ryukyu Karatedo Motobu-ha Shito Ryu Soke no
Headmaster of Okinawan Motobu-Faction of Shito Ryu Karate-do

5. Kuniba Shogo wa [?makoto?] ni seishiki ni Nippon Kobudo
Shogo Kuniba [?sincerely?] and properly the Nippon Ancient Martial Ways

6. Kamishin Ryu Soke Arubaato Shi Chiyaachi Nisei

6a. ( karate-do [?] ) (Kanda Takashi)
Headmaster of Kamishin Ryu ( karate-do [?]) Albert C Church, Junior (aka "Kanda Takashi")

7. ............................................................ no moto ni………
below …..

8. [?oite?] so no igi wo kyoju suru kyoka [?] [?] [?] [?]
at .. the significance of this teaching recognition [?][?][?][?]

9. [?][?][?][?] Seishinkan Kokusai Sogo Budo Renmei
[?][?][?][?] Seishinkan International Combined Martial Ways Federation’s

10. no na no moto ni [?]~te [?][?][?][?][?][?] no menjo
name below [?]~ing [?][?][?][?][?][?]’s diploma/license

11. [?][?][?][?] suru koto wo kyoka suru no desu [?][?][?][?]
[?][?][?][?] may do such things with [my] approval [?][?][?][?]

12. Kono [? Shomeisho ?] wa Arubaato Shi Chiyaachi Nisei (Kanda Takashi)
This [?certificate?] gives Albert C. Church, Junior (aka "Kanda Tahashi")

13 [?][?][?][?] kokusai-teki na Ninkajo de ari, kore ni
[?][?][?][?] with an international License of Certification, this

14. .....................................................no shita ni kyoka [?][?]
authorize the [?][?] below


15. [?][?] budo no Kokusai Shido-in [?] [?] [?] [?]
........ martial arts International Instructor .............

16. .........................no de ari.............................................
with/having

17. Watakushi wa seishiki ni Arubaato Shi Chiyaachi Nisei
I do formally to Albert C. Church, Junior

18. ............................... [?] do ...........................
way/path

19. Amerika daihyo ***** ninmei [? watakushi?] no soshiki no
appoint American Representative of my organization’s

20. no na no moto ni [?] [?] Seishikan Kobudo [?to?] Nippon
name below [?][?] Seishinkan Ancient Martial Ways [?and?] Japan

21. Kobudo Kamishin Ryu no [?] [?] [?] [?] [?] menjo
Ancient Martial Way Kamishin Ryu [?][?][?][?] license

22. no kosho no dokusen-teki [?][?] wo kyoka suru [?]
authorized the monopolization to being called/naming [?]

23. [?] [?] Arubaato Shi Chiyaachi Nisei wa watakushi no
......... Albert C. Church, Junior my

24. Ryukyu Karatedo Motobu-ha Shito Ryu no nari no
Okinawa Karate-do Motobu-faction Shito Ryu becoming

25. hotondo no [? kokusai ?]~teki naru chishiki wo seikai-ju no
most internationalized and known world-wide

26. [?] .. no kokoro no hitobito ni soki ni suishin [?] [?]
instruct [?] hearted people in an early stage and disseminate

27. [?] shita…no mono to suru
..... below ..... doing such things

28. Showa yonjyu-yon nen, jyuichi gatsu, suitachi
Showa 44 Year, 11 Month, 1st day [1 November 1969]

29. Seishinkan Kokusai Sogo Budo Renmei
Seishinkan International Combined Martial Ways Federation

30. Ryukyu Karatedo Motobu-ha Shito Ryu
Okinawan Motobu-Faction of Shito Ryu Karate-do

[Medium Organization Seal] Seishinkai Kokusai Sogo Budo Renmei

31. [illegible; but educated guess based on other documents:]
Sousai KUNIBA SHOGO [in]
President Shogo Kuniba [Name Seal]