So what's a better "test" for martial arts other than MMA?

[drop bear]

Okay I can see that point. I have only been part of these conversations for the last few months and tend to segregate myself, as you have seen, to Chinese, Filipino and Self Defense threads which likely limits my vision even further than simply my time here. It kinda makes me ask though, if there will always be this kind of immediate defensive reaction with no room for a constructive back and forth, due to the large history you note, is it even worth contributing?

It's all something to think about though, thanks for the insight into some of the dynamics at play here.

No If you make senible arguments you will get sensible responses.

 

[drop bear]

Unarmed vs knife training is designed to make people feel good. If they are happy then the training is worthwhile.

That is why it is designed towards the success of the defender. An actual unarmed vs knife is desighed towards the success of the attacker.

So We go back to MMA as the test. People think mount defence looks like this.

When in reality it looks like this.

Knife defence in real life is notheing like knife defence in the gym.

 

[Steve]

Yeah. it is a contradiction that is all. This build up of this idea of training for a life or death conflict.

And the actual training that goes towards it.

Those guys who do self defence with the seriousness would probably do allright in the ring. I mean you put a bare knuckle gypsy boxer in MMA. He at least probably wouldn't get outstruck.

The skills transfer.

Absolutely true. Here's a picture of Conor McGregor in one of his early fights. He did pretty well without any formal training at all.

I never thought of it before but I think you hit it well. If you are learning anything difficult for a practical purpose the "good" feeling about your training comes with hindsight. During the initial training it can be both mentally and physically exhausting. You get an endorphin rush that briefly gives you a feel good but after the crash you sometimes think "oh crap I will have to do that again and again."

Then that day comes when the training is used for real, doesn't matter if it is Martial Arts or those incredibly long nights studying till you pass out in Medical School (that is from my cousin and her experience.) You either save your own butt on the street, the patient in the ER and then, in hind sight, you actually appreciate the "hard" bits and are thankful for them because its not about the skill really, it's about the toughness to use those skills under major pressure.

Okay. I can't let you get away with this one. "Then that day comes when the training is used for real." Unless you're actively and routinely engaging in high risk behaviors, which I would say includes being a cop, bouncer, security guard or other professional risk taker, the chances of "that day... when the training is used for real," is likely never to come. It's like saying, "I wear rubber soled shoes for that day when I'm struck by lightning." When???

The reality is more like, "that day... when the training is passed on by me to someone else as I learned it in the hopes that because it worked for my teacher's teacher, it will work for you in the unlikely chance you ever need it."

I've spent a lot of time posting on this topic, and yet there are a few guys around here who still seem to think that experience is optional.

 

[drop bear]

Absolutely true. Here's a picture of Conor McGregor in one of his early fights. He did pretty well without any formal training at all.

Okay. I can't let you get away with this one. "Then that day comes when the training is used for real." Unless you're actively and routinely engaging in high risk behaviors, which I would say includes being a cop, bouncer, security guard or other professional risk taker, the chances of "that day... when the training is used for real," is likely never to come. It's like saying, "I wear rubber soled shoes for that day when I'm struck by lightning." When???

The reality is more like, "that day... when the training is passed on by me to someone else as I learned it in the hopes that because it worked for my teacher's teacher, it will work for you in the unlikely chance you ever need it."

I've spent a lot of time posting on this topic, and yet there are a few guys around here who still seem to think that experience is optional.

Depends what you are teaching. If you are teaching a street dedicated version. Then you have to have your T,s crossed and your I,s dotted. About what actually happens on the street. And that takes experience. And then you really only have your own experience. Sort of.

You also have to think about what you see. And how that is your personal experience. So I have had plenty of 150KG bouncers teach me about de-escalation. And guess what not that many people escalate on 150kg bouncers.

Otherwise we get a lot of these dogmatic insanity about. street violence occures at close range. Nobody ever fences with weapons, going to the ground gets you attacked by multiple opponants. And so on. Without anybody ever really thinking about the exact circumstances as to why it happened and how you could change those curcumstances.

They are metaphorically playing checkers.

You wont get that in BJJ. or MMA as an example. "Never pass guard with one arm because you get triangled."

And this is because experience and experimentation teaches you that there are a range of options you can employ that all work to a differing level. You have to think for yourself.

When people can start thinking for themselves regarding self defence. And experiment and experience. That is when we would gain real usable knowledge about self defence.

Untill then do MMA because at least that works somewhere.

 

[Juany118]

Absolutely true. Here's a picture of Conor McGregor in one of his early fights. He did pretty well without any formal training at all.

Okay. I can't let you get away with this one. "Then that day comes when the training is used for real." Unless you're actively and routinely engaging in high risk behaviors, which I would say includes being a cop, bouncer, security guard or other professional risk taker, the chances of "that day... when the training is used for real," is likely never to come. It's like saying, "I wear rubber soled shoes for that day when I'm struck by lightning." When???

The reality is more like, "that day... when the training is passed on by me to someone else as I learned it in the hopes that because it worked for my teacher's teacher, it will work for you in the unlikely chance you ever need it."

I've spent a lot of time posting on this topic, and yet there are a few guys around here who still seem to think that experience is optional.

I was talking beyond martial arts in a self defense context and to life in general really (like you did with the basic training comment). It's why I mentioned the Doctor thing as well. I honestly think that applies to anything that is a product of hard work. You have goals or intentions, sometimes what it takes to reach the goal or be prepared for it can "get you down" and to keep enthusiasm you need to achieve something for that hard work and training.

As to your self defense bit you are correct, those of use who have or had to use it, once or regularly are the "odd person out." I forgot, likely because I was projecting my own experience, (because I am rushing to get ready for dinner) that this is why I suggest anyone who is training in self defense do so where even if it is only at your school there is at least "friendly" competitive sparring. I don't care if you wear armor or not but I think it's important. Not only because it puts your skills under a pressure test BUT because when you get that win, or even just personal best of some sort under pressure, it makes the "downers" of the hard work seem worth it.

I always use an experience I had in High School. I ran track and fenced. I was always "dead" at the end of endurance runs. They hurt because I had major trouble pacing myself for distances past a mile or two. I had lots of downers because of it. The first time though I did a sub 50 second 1/4 Mile in an offical race (it was the last one of my Senior year so it is my only "official" sub 50 as well) I was smiling, my coach was smiling, while I vomited in the field off the track. I didn't even win, I came in third, but I was still smiling like a jack *** because I was never that fast before. The "downers" paid off.

I suppose that may be one of the reasons why belt systems are so popular, it provides a goal, but they never mattered much to me. Again projecting.

 

[Ironbear24]

Depends what you are teaching. If you are teaching a street dedicated version. Then you have to have your T,s crossed and your I,s dotted. About what actually happens on the street. And that takes experience. And then you really only have your own experience. Sort of.

You also have to think about what you see. And how that is your personal experience. So I have had plenty of 150KG bouncers teach me about de-escalation. And guess what not that many people escalate on 150kg bouncers.

Otherwise we get a lot of these dogmatic insanity about. street violence occures at close range. Nobody ever fences with weapons, going to the ground gets you attacked by multiple opponants. And so on. Without anybody ever really thinking about the exact circumstances as to why it happened and how you could change those curcumstances.

They are metaphorically playing checkers.

You wont get that in BJJ. or MMA as an example. "Never pass guard with one arm because you get triangled."

And this is because experience and experimentation teaches you that there are a range of options you can employ that all work to a differing level. You have to think for yourself.

When people can start thinking for themselves regarding self defence. And experiment and experience. That is when we would gain real usable knowledge about self defence.

Untill then do MMA because at least that works somewhere.

You really should branch out from your comfort zone and actually try other things. You talk about "TMA" and other arts more than those who actually practice them and 9/10 times you say things that are completely ignorant about them.

 

[drop bear]

You really should branch out from your comfort zone and actually try other things. You talk about "TMA" and other arts more than those who actually practice them and 9/10 times you say things that are completely ignorant about them.

I have done other martial arts. I just never drank the cool aid.

Most self defense instructors just dont have the experience to speak with authority on self defence.

 

[Ironbear24]

I have done other martial arts. I just never drank the cool aid.

Most self defense instructors just dont have the experience to speak with authority on self defence.

Oh you drank some cool aid all right. Just because you find some bad places doesn't mean give up on it altogether, I went through 2 shitty instructors before I found my American kenpo instructor then the one I go to now

 

[Ironbear24]

Most self defense instructors just dont have the experience to speak with authority on self defence.

And you know this how? Have you researched many of their backgrounds? Or are you speaking out of the few times you tried it?

 

[drop bear]

Oh you drank some cool aid all right. Just because you find some bad places doesn't mean give up on it altogether, I went through 2 shitty instructors before I found my American kenpo instructor then the one I go to now

Dude I do like 5 different systems now. Boxing, muay thai, wrestling,BJJ and mma.

I have three different instructors. That is a larger and more varied training set than you are engaged in isnt it?

There are concepts that are pretty consistant for good schools and bad schools. It is not style specific.

I have formed my opinion by training in a bunch of styles and then going out and using them on people. I saw what consistantly worked. And what did not.

I mean in twenty years of bouncing how many arms do you think i have grabbed? or how many glasses that have the potentual to become weapons. hundreds? possibly thousands? And you are going to tell me under what curcumstances achieving that is possible and when it is not.

I mean you would want to back that up with a better logic strain than some fancy about me never having done a TMA.

There is a whole bunch of stuff that doesn't work well under certain conditions. And that is not the suface you are fighting in, what shoes you are wearing or if you are on a staircase.(they are tiny issues) It is whether or not the person is either committed to hurting you or committed to stopping you hurting them. That really is the biggest hurdle anyone will face going from martial arts to street fighting.

Now you can train that in the gym by getting some pads on and fighting some guy hard. Then it does not matter if it is kempo karate or MMA because you know it will work at speed and with resistance.

If you give them a knife and did it at speed with some real intent. You would find out almost nothing works.

If you did that with multiple oponants at speed and with intent you would find that almost nothing works.

But you need to consistantly raise there dynamics to suggest one style doesn't work. It just makes no sense.

 

[drop bear]

And you know this how? Have you researched many of their backgrounds? Or are you speaking out of the few times you tried it?

Almost nobody has a background in self defence.

I mean used in the street a few times doesn't fly now remember? The sample size is too small. Or is that suddenly going to change again.

 

[Ironbear24]

Dude I do like 5 different systems now. Boxing, muay thai, wrestling,BJJ and mma.

As I said before. Do something that isn't commonly found in MMA. All of those things you mentioned are basically the same stuff you find in MMA. The major 4 boxing, bjj, Mt and wrestling. Try some karate, try some tkd, try some Judo.

You talk so much about "TMA" yet you have done none of it. You just confirmed it now.

 

[drop bear]

As I said before. Do something that isn't commonly found in MMA. All of those things you mentioned are basically the same stuff you find in MMA. The major 4 boxing, bjj, Mt and wrestling. Try some karate, try some tkd, try some Judo.

You talk so much about "TMA" yet you have done none of it. You just confirmed it now.

I did judo. jujitsu and chinese boxing. Had a big todo with chris because it wasnt Japanese enough. Got an orange belt.

I train with a karate chamion who will be representing Australia.

Got to brown in zen do kai karate.

Did a month of wing chun.

Got a yellow cordy thing in capoeira.

I taught hocks system. Scientific fighting congress for a year or so.

Did a year or so of wadaroo or shotokan or something there as a kid.

And I bounced with karate guys and kickboxers akido guys bjjers mmaer all sorts of martial arts. And got to see them used against people in fights.

How about you go try some TMA and then come back with some experience.

 

[Ironbear24]

you go try some TMA and then come back with some experience.

Already there. One month of WC is laughable, there is no fighting system where you can train it only one month and become good at it.
A yellow rope is literally the first step up from white belt, not very major at all.

Never heard of that form of karate but congrats on brown belt. Why did you stop? Did you get orange in Judo or jiu-jitsu?

 

[drop bear]

Already there. One month of WC is laughable, there is no fighting system where you can train it only one month and become good at it.
A yellow rope is literally the first step up from white belt, not very major at all.

Never heard of that form of karate but congrats on brown belt. Why did you stop? Did you get orange in Judo or jiu-jitsu?

In wing chun I was Man handling the instructor after one month so I did something else.

White green then yellow for the capo.

Orange in the jujitsu.

 

[Ironbear24]

Sounds like a bad instructor to me.

http://www.capoeirastl.org/ranking-system.html

This says otherwise, but I am not going to argue with you about it. You have more knowledge about it than I do after all since I have never done capoeira.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Sounds like a bad instructor to me.

http://www.capoeirastl.org/ranking-system.html

This says otherwise, but I am not going to argue with you about it. You have more knowledge about it than I do after all since I have never done capoeira.

Different Capoeira lineages/instructors have different cord systems. It's not that well standardized, although many do use colors from the Brazilian flag in some combination or another.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Aiki is only related to combat effectiveness when it is used properly, meaning that attempting to create aiki moments actually reduces combat effectiveness. Meh, that's probably too long a discussion for this thread - too much of a sidetrack.

My point was that someone working for maximum aiki needs to work without resistance with a very compliant uke for many years. This, IMO, is what we see in a lot of aiki arts. Adding in realistic resistance makes the path to aiki much longer, so if someone is seeking the fastest path to pure aiki, they don't want resistance. If they want a faster path to combat effectiveness, then resistance is necessary, and that's where competition can help.

In some ways, it's the same thing. Maybe Tony can step in and clarify if he's reading this. Every competitor who uses throws/locks/takedowns will occasionally get that one where it feels like the other guy didn't exist. Like the guy almost threw himself down for you, though you know he was trying to stay up. That feeling is where the "aiki" is, by my definition. In the aiki arts, we train to feel the point where that's possible, and to use that as often as possible. The "pure aiki" arts train only to use that - not realistic in my experience for self-defense unless you are spectacularly skilled. In NGA, for instance, we train a lot around finding that feel, how to expose that moment in common attacks and movement, but if it's not there, we'll hit them (which often opens up a new opportunity for "aiki"). I see a lot of aiki principles in some of the BJJ I've looked at. I keep wanting to roll with a BJJ black belt to see if I'm seeing what I think I see. So, someone who is really good at almost any grappling will be using some aiki principles, even if they don't use the term.

I agree with you on the definition of aiki, but I think I disagree on the best way to get there. Working with a compliant uke can be a good way to get an idea of what executing a technique with aiki will ultimately feel like, but I don't think it will get you to the point of actually being able to use aiki on a non-compliant opponent. For that I think you need the years of working with non-compliant opponents. That non-compliant experience feels like a major step away from aiki (especially at the beginner levels), but it's necessary to build the necessary sensitivity to the constant shifts in pressure, balance, and structure that a real opponent will make as he tries to overcome your defense.

I'm not against having compliant aiki/energy capturing drills as part of training, if only to remind the student of the ultimate goal, but I don't think it should be the primary focus if you want to be able to apply that kind of movement in real life. Admittedly I'm not a practitioner of an official "aiki" art, but I've noticed that I personally started getting a lot more of those "aiki" moments after some years of non-compliant training than I did during years spent doing compliant drills in an art which promoted the idea of capturing an opponent's energy.

There is an understandable argument to be made that the aiki arts are more designed for use against an untrained assailant who is likely to feed fully committed, off-balance attacks than against a skilled competitor who will stay more on-balance and use feints to set up precisely timed combinations and counters. Nevertheless, my experience suggests that working against the skilled competitor is actually the quicker road to being able to capture the energy of an untrained, overcommitted attacker.*

*(This only applies if you keep that ideal of effortlessly using the opponent's energy in mind while you are training against skilled, non-compliant opponent's. It's also possible to develop a style built around crushing your opponent with relentless pressure, if that's what you're into. Such an approach would probably not lead to much application of aiki.)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If you give them a knife and did it at speed with some real intent. You would find out almost nothing works.

This is why Marc Denny and Gabe Suarez have a video series out on knife defense titled "Die Less Often." They have considerable experience in weapons sparring (Denny) and law enforcement (Suarez) and they don't claim to have any techniques which will ensure your safety in a knife assault. Rather the idea is just to improve your chances. In a 100 alternate universes where you are attacked with a knife, perhaps you normally die in 90% of them. (Random number inserted there. I have no idea what the actual survival rate is for real world knife attacks.) By training the highest percentage defenses, perhaps you improve those odds so you only die in 65% of those alternate universes. (Once again, number pulled out of a hat. The point is that improving your odds does not mean you have a high probability of success.

I've sparred unarmed against (trainer) knives. Sometimes I win when doing so. Nevertheless, the experience is enough to convince me that I never want to face a real knife attack, even from an unskilled assailant.

 

[RTKDCMB]

So the art has to be a couple of thousand years old.

I'm not sure they had streets back then.