So what's a better "test" for martial arts other than MMA?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Hanzou, Nov 20, 2016.

  1. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    I keep hearing that MMA isn't the best test for the effectiveness of MA styles. So what's a better test outside of putting on a costume and becoming a vigilante with a death wish? Just curious.

    And btw, there's varying rulesets for MMA, so if you feel that some of the UFC rules are restrictive, there are other fight circuits where they have even less rules.
     
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  2. marques

    marques Master Black Belt

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    If MMA is good, it is because it a known reference. In the past, Boxing was used as the reference, I feel. Also because it is a sport and you can choose going there. MA self defence focused cannot cause a conflict to test itself, in a proper situation.

    It is not good in the sense it favours some styles. You change the rules and it will favour (other) some styles.
     
  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Why do you need a "better" test? No test of martial arts' street effectiveness will ever be complete if you include the concept of avoiding violence when you can. MMA is a good test, and incomplete in its own way.
     
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  4. Leo89

    Leo89 Yellow Belt

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    I think the ability to defend oneself in a brawl is the real test of effectiveness right there, as for "the streets" a lot of people carry guns these days.
     
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  5. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    For empty hand striking and grappling agreed upon fighting under a particular rule set with time limits and rest periods, presently nothing.

    However:
    What does it do for conflict resolution or de-escalation in a self defense situation?
    What does it do for a weapon attack defensive situation?
    What does it do for a disparity of force via size and/or in numbers situation?
    What does it do for the possibility of surprise or ambushed attack?
     
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  6. Paul_D

    Paul_D Master Black Belt

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    Figthng, martial arts and self defence are three different things, not one in the same. Hence you cannot use one to judge the effectiveness of the others. MMA is a good test for the effectiveness of MMA, that is all.
     
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  7. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    The pros of mma is that you are going against a guy who doesn't just stand there and not react or is compliance .see I can say something good about it. My concern is that though the ring prepares you in an encounter with someone who is equally your weight with, the ring leaves out a lot of variables that you would encounter in a street fight scenario. I also think that because the precondition mindset of an mma fighter is to fight in a street encounter this may be less ideal.
    A lot of the rbsd type things are more in line of what I see for street scenario, I tell my students be in the mindset of the worse possible scenario big guy has a knife and all his friends think you have a pretty face and you have stomach ache and diarrhea, what would you do?
     
  8. Kickboxer101

    Kickboxer101 Master Black Belt

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    There's no such as the best test. People want to test themselves in different ways, some like to test themselves by going for belt ranks people want to test themselves by doing the best kata they can do others want to test by doing point fighting and some want to test themself with weapons or breaking and yes some want to test with mma. If mma was the one ultimate test for everyone there'd be a lot less people doing martial arts because not everyone wants to get in a cage and fight and that doesn't mean they're weak or not a good martial artist they just have different goals. For me mma isn't the ultimate test because I don't do mma and I don't want to do mma so it's not a test for me because its not what I do same with a lot of other people.
     
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  9. Leo89

    Leo89 Yellow Belt

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    So, if you're backed into a corner, the last resort being a fight, you wouldn't call defending yourself self defense?

    If there's a difference between self defense and a fight (where most SD takes place), then please enlighten me.
     
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  10. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    Probably should have read - Bait and double leg takedown shack. My bad. :)
     
  12. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    I admit the bait analogy is appropriate but looking at the actual premise of the question in a different way , ,,if you do self defense training how do you assure that what you are doing works or is even realistic? Is it even possible to test self defense?
     
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  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You test it with as realistic an attack as you safely can.
     
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  14. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Change which rules specifically? There were very few rules in the first UFC, and very few rules in other MMA style competitions, but the same styles dominate regardless.
     
  15. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Due to my knee issue, tackle is more than appropriate. ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2016
  16. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    I'm simply asking the question, since some people like to say that MMA isn't the "best" test for a system's effectiveness.

    I would argue that many people do those "tests" because they believe at the end of their journey they're going to be better fighters. Just about everyone walking through the doors of a dojo or kwoon does so with the belief that they're going to be able to stop someone bigger or stronger from hurting them. The problem is that breaking a bunch of boards, doing pre-arranged kata, going for belt ranks, etc. isn't going to make you capable of doing that.

    Fighting, whether in the cage, or on the mat will do that.
     
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  17. Ironbear24

    Ironbear24 Senior Master

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    If that is how you feel then why even bother with martial arts? Why not just go around being a chingon and brawling?

    Yesterday I fought on the mat, but we did it for the competition we are going to be attending, so because of that we had to adhere to many silly rules, like nothing below the waist can be struck, no grappling and no hitting the back. Only targets available are face, head, and upperbody, plus it is touch contact but with no rules on level of force applied.

    I detest it but at the same time I never turn down any type of sparring. I bring this up because this kind of sparring will NEVER make you a better fighter. There are way too many rules and the rules turn it into more of a game of tag rather than a fight. We are even told to not see it as a fight because it isn't one, it is a game and nothing more.

    It is good for conditioning your body from a cardio aspect and is great for strategy (really makes you think how you are going to get those points when your opponent has so little he or she needs to protect.) It is also good for practicing to not get hit, which is always very important.

    Then we have our own personal way of sparring where each bout is 30 seconds and you can do anything you wish, with no protective gear other than your cup. You can grapple (which is about 50% of our style) you can kick kidneys and the back to break down your opponent and soften them up.

    There are no points awarded here, just do as much damage as you can while receiving as little as possible, the level of contact here is about medium to high but not full force as we want to do this for at least the entire class and not have to stop it due to a serious injury.

    This is where the actual test for your skill is, we also only do this about twice a month because if we did this all the time we would be hurt often. Thirty seconds may seem short but when the sifu calls to switch you immediately have to trade opponents so everyone gets a chance to spar everyone.
     
  18. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    You should test your MA skill in the following order:

    - punching skill in boxing,
    - kicking/punching skill in kick boxing,
    - wrestling skill in wrestling/Judo,
    - ground skill in BJJ,
    - kicking/punching/wrestling skills in Sanda/Sanshou.
    - kicking/punching/wrestling and ground skill in MMA.

    IMO, most people are not ready to jump right into MMA yet.

    Besides to cross train the striking art and the grappling art, there is an integration task after that. Just to train boxing and wrestling doesn't mean that you know how to integrate both.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2016
  19. Kickboxer101

    Kickboxer101 Master Black Belt

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    No it's not not everyone trains to be a fighter at all and the fact you seem to think they do is very closed minded. Not everyone wants to fight people, the reason people in their 70s start training at that age isn't to kick someone's butt it's for the challenge and to get in shape and just learn and to meet new people
     
  20. Ironbear24

    Ironbear24 Senior Master

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    And also, not all of us are interested in MMA competitions. I myself am training for karate tournaments such as kyokyushin rules ect. They have no submission grappling there so why would I bother caring about it? Someday I will go into MMA stuff but for now it just doesn't concern me. I do grappling and will being Jiu Jitsu training along with Karate but that isn't to go into MMA, it is simply because I love martial arts and Jiu Jitsu is a cool Martial Art that I will have the opportunity of practicing.

    The whole attitude of MMA being some sort of crucible for martial arts and it's styles just seems ridiculous to me. For one as you said not everyone wishes to be a competitive fighter and two, many people just want something fun to do and be able to protect themselves and their loved ones. The odds of a bjj master attacking you and your loved ones or some champion ship mma fighter doing that are slim to none. The majority of martial arts styles out there can offer you enough skill to protect your life against the common rabble.

    You don't need to be some sort of championship fighter to simple defend yourself against a moron. Another thing is the fact that styles are not things that are set in stone and the practicioner can adapt their figthing to fit what they wish to do.

    Let's look at Karate for example, there is light contact point sparring, then there is heavy contact kumite, the karateka can do both but they need to train toward what they wish to do. The same goes for every goal, if you wish to be good at self defense then train for that, if you want both then train for both. If you want heavy contact competitions then train for that along with what else you wish to do with your style.123
     
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