Siu Lim Tau Comparison

[KPM]

Lol, exactly. I was sparing KPM another round of that argument

You do realize he was referring to WSL???

 

[LFJ]

Perhaps if you don't want others joining in be more specific about the topic. When I entered this conversation it was concerning cutting/exclusion/gate punching not specifically about WSL VT/YM VT elbow ideas.

It's not my fault if you didn't read from the start of the conversation. We did restate the original claim several times.

Does your WC include this method in question? If so please provide example how it is different. If you don't, then I don't see the need to argue with others about it.

The elbow ideas can be part of a punch, but are not a specific technique per se. The technique of "excluding" punches was presented as an example of YMVT elbow ideas existing in other systems, but there's no such elbow idea in it.

 

[KPM]

It seems we are still waiting for either you or Guy to post a video of PB (since you always refuse to post any videos of yourselves) showing this punch and explaining what is so unique about it in WSLVT.

 

[Nobody Important]

It's not my fault if you didn't read from the start of the conversation. We did restate the original claim several times.



The elbow ideas can be part of a punch, but are not a specific technique per se. The technique of "excluding" punches was presented as an example of YMVT elbow ideas existing in other systems, but there's no such elbow idea in it.

It's not my fault you assumed I was comparing Gate Punching to concepts present or not in YMWC. You either have it or don't. If you don't, no big deal. If you do have something similar please post it. I've already stated I've seen it present in PB videos. Whether intentional or simply coincidental and spontaneous I don't know. But it has yet to be verified by you or Guy as existing, if so I would like to know how the elbow is used differently. Because in YCW WC it's just a plain old straight punch.

 

[LFJ]

showing this punch and explaining what is so unique about it in WSLVT.

What punch?

It's not my fault you assumed I was comparing Gate Punching to concepts present or not in YMWC.

Next time don't join the discussion if you don't even know what it's about. It's a waste of everyone's time.

I've already stated I've seen it present in PB videos. Whether intentional or simply coincidental and spontaneous I don't know. But it has yet to be verified by you or Guy as existing.

I don't know what "gate punch" you're talking about. Post the video and let's have a look.

 

[Nobody Important]

What punch?



Next time don't join the discussion if you don't even know what it's about. It's a waste of everyone's time.



I don't know what "gate punch" you're talking about. Post the video and let's have a look.

Typical, you need a tissue, a hug or both?

 

[guy b]

You do realize he was referring to WSL???

Doesn't matter if he was referring to YM or WSL. The same probability argument that you hate applies

 

[guy b]

It's not my fault if you didn't read from the start of the conversation. We did restate the original claim several times.

It's getting to be a bit of a habit for Nobody to barge into a conversation, get the wrong end of the stick, then get offended and storm off again. Oh well, at least it wasn't 12 pages this time

 

[guy b]

It seems we are still waiting for either you or Guy to post a video of PB (since you always refuse to post any videos of yourselves) showing this punch and explaining what is so unique about it in WSLVT.

Suggest you check the internet, there are quite a few clips of PB around

 

[guy b]

edit

 

[Nobody Important]

It's getting to be a bit of a habit for Nobody to barge into a conversation, get the wrong end of the stick, then get offended and storm off again. Oh well, at least it wasn't 12 pages this time

It's beginning to become a bit of a habit for you two to start a conversation on one subject (leaving an escape plan for when it goes south on you) then flip the subject. Never providing any details, yet pointing out where others fail according to your belief. You also have a hard time staying on point, you'd rather deflect or attempt to insert a back door or simply go to the old stand by "This conversation doesn't deal with mainland WC" when things don't go your way.

The reason we have page after page is because you two ask questions in a manner as if you don't understand in an attempt to spring some stupid "gotcha" moment. Neither of you has addressed the question as it applies to your lineage, yet another habit of yours, the unwillingness to provide example/description for clarification.

Everyone else here attempts to post without an agenda. Why is it everytime you two post that there has to be an ulterior motive?

 

[Nobody Important]

Suggest you check the internet, there are quite a few clips of PB around

Then why haven't you posted one containing the technique in question?

 

[wtxs]

Quick correction: "The start of the Bil Gee incorporates elbow striking." should read "elbow deflection and/or striking."

Separate thought, I think I've demonstrated a fair amount of patience with you LFJ. Throughout our conversation, you've seemed combative and defensive. I've shared openly and in fairly great detail even providing video demonstrations to support statements. I'm asking you now, as a fellow martial artist, to understand I'm not coming from a place of criticism of your lineage when replying to you. I do, however, feel like there is an undertone of criticism coming from you and unfortunately, it's not possible to prove an empirical truth with theory.

I disagree with your interpretation of the "little idea" being "all about" or solely focused on the elbows. I think it's limited and naive. I think the use of elbows as a defense mechanism bipasses a perfectly valid line of defense. I think use of the elbow increases risk of having that elbow captured. I think walking straight into a person who's twice your weight is a dumb thing to do. I think the wrists are useful devices and so are the finger tips.

~ Alan

Perhaps now you understand of what Geezer is talking about.

 

[Juany118]

It's beginning to become a bit of a habit for you two to start a conversation on one subject (leaving an escape plan for when it goes south on you) then flip the subject. Never providing any details, yet pointing out where others fail according to your belief. You also have a hard time staying on point, you'd rather deflect or attempt to insert a back door or simply go to the old stand by "This conversation doesn't deal with mainland WC" when things don't go your way.

The reason we have page after page is because you two ask questions in a manner as if you don't understand in an attempt to spring some stupid "gotcha" moment. Neither of you has addressed the question as it applies to your lineage, yet another habit of yours, the unwillingness to provide example/description for clarification.

Everyone else here attempts to post without an agenda. Why is it everytime you two post that there has to be an ulterior motive?

It's doesn't even end their though, they will raise criticisms that exist only because of the training environment. Some lineages, in my experience, use more actual combat simulations in training and others rely more on the "principle based" drills. If you are using a combat simulation drill and are simulating actual entry into a fight with a partner you have 2 options.

1. perhaps have to take a short release step so you can still get full power and extension on your punch without potentially leveling your training partner.
2. completely level your training partner.

The release step you may do in number 1 to preserve your partner isn't what you would do irl and you will soon spar in order to complete the programming of what you would do irl. #1 is simply an interim step in transitioning from learning principles to actually developing skills that can be applied irl. They either ignore this intentionally to create a gotcha moment OR they simply can't conceive of the idea in the first place because they can't think outside the box of their training regime. I don't know which one it is though. Then to make matters even funnier they will basically go on their "gotcha" parade BUT at some point when you start raising concerns on the rare occasion they provide details they will say "I am not here to debate one lineage vs another."

 

[KPM]

Suggest you check the internet, there are quite a few clips of PB around

So, once again, you are refusing a simple request? That's not exactly the way to carry on a "friendly discussion."

 

[KPM]

.

The reason we have page after page is because you two ask questions in a manner as if you don't understand in an attempt to spring some stupid "gotcha" moment. Neither of you has addressed the question as it applies to your lineage, yet another habit of yours, the unwillingness to provide example/description for clarification.

Everyone else here attempts to post without an agenda. Why is it everytime you two post that there has to be an ulterior motive?

THIS! Exactly! Time and time again the pattern repeats itself. You guys did so well on Lobo's thread, and then turn around and return to your old ways here. Guy B. asked for clarification on what I was talking about. LFJ helped me remember that I did indeed have it on video. But Guy and LFJ say "no that's not what we do." When requested to provide a comparison video of PB showing what they do, the request is refused. They repeated asked for video to clarify what we were talking about, but then won't provide video to clarify what they are talking about!

 

[KPM]

What punch?



.

The "cutting" or "excluding" punch! Geez! Aren't you paying attention!!!????

 

[Juany118]

Then why haven't you posted one containing the technique in question?

My suspicion is because, as I said in an earlier thread, much of their argument is a kin to the communication issues a person from the bayou of Louisianan, Edinburgh Scotland, South Philly and Queensland Australia can have. They are all speaking English, and if they wrote it down for people to see it would look largely the same except for things like color and colour, or "lift" vs "elevator" etc.

That said since they went back on their shot taking tour I don't think it makes any sense for me to remain non-critical at this point. One of the many reasons I landed at my current school was because TWC does train to use what you and KPM have been discussing here BUT it also teaches moving to the blind side/flank. Look at any real fight, in the ring or on the street. If the combatants have the time you will see them circle each other before they move in. Why do they do that? They could just stand there the way fencers do waiting for the right time to strike. They do that for a specific reason, to try and avoid the "fatal funnel."

Look at it like a LEO or soldier clearing a house where there is an armed subject. You are wearing body armor, maybe even full tactical kit with helmet and all, so why go all the way into a room if you can just check it from the doorway? Because simply countering gunfire with the armor and your own gunfire is asking for trouble. So you pie the corner outside the room, then dump in towards the corners you can not see from the hallway. You get out of that fatal funnel and engage the target.

You can train all of the techniques that equate to simultaneous attack and defense with a single limb for hours everyday but at some point those counter strikes aren't going to force your opponent to turn, so THEY essentially move you out of the funnel by moving the funnel itself. That counter strike that was supposed to deflect an incoming punch is going to have a punch go around, through, over or under it etc. because if they launched their's first, or are strong enough, have more reach etc your going to connect too late. Maybe the opponent isn't even really going to try and strike you but simply use them to set you up for a take down?

In any event you will at some point find yourself in that fatal funnel, where all four of their limbs can go to work on you as easily as yours can on him and all the counters in the world wont move it. In that case, if you have not also trained to properly move yourself out of it, you will find yourself in a BAD place. That is the difference between a real fight in a dynamic environment where the fighting methods of the opponent is an uncertain and people fighting in a school where everyone is following the exact same principles and as such it always plays to the script.

 

[guy b]

Then why haven't you posted one containing the technique in question?

Because I have things to do that are more important than searching the internet for footage, like my job, or talking to my family? When I have time, if you are still unable to google one of the many video clips containing PB, then I will supply you with one, free of charge. Good luck

I feel you might succeed given the frequency of PB vids and the relative frequency of punching in those clips

Of course this is not the case for gate punches, cutting punches and excluding punches, all of which (despite being WC 101) are exceedingly difficult to pin down

 

[guy b]

So, once again, you are refusing a simple request? That's not exactly the way to carry on a "friendly discussion."

Please see reply to NI above. You can do it KPM! Good luck