Side kicks

[kenpo2dabone]

In my opinion keeping true to Kenpo principles in any of the variations of this kick is paramount. The supporting foot should not be rotated past the point of the correct position for the neutral bow. This means the 45. The principle where the line ends the circle begins and where the circle ends the line begins coupled with economy of motion explaines this in my opinion. It does not matter if you rotate your foot at the end of the kick (where the line ends the circle begins) or you rotate your foot first such as into a twist stance and then kick (where the circle ends the line begins). Rotating past the 45 only means that the foot will have to be rotated back before engagement can continue (we call this happy feet) and it breaks the economy of motion principle. The only exception that I can think of at the moment might be if you are trying to incorporate a line change before or after the kick. Sparring is a different story because you are basically playing a game of tag I might rotate my foot past the 45 to get that extra 2-3 inches of penetration to close the gap and score a point.


Salute,

Mike Miller UKF

 

[WhiteTiger]

Originally posted by kenpo2dabone
The supporting foot should not be rotated past the point of the correct position for the neutral bow. This means the 45. ----I might rotate my foot past the 45 to get that extra 2-3 inches of penetration to close the gap and score a point.

Agreed you must rotate to at least 45 degrees or risk serious knee injury. But going past 45 is an option to gain distance. We use a sliding side kick in which our supporting foot slides toward the target, as the kick is being thrown, borrowing mass from your entire upper body you can easily close up to 24 inches of distance and still deliver a devistating kick.

As for the debate over "side" vs. "knife edge" the knife edge is target based, meaning if you are kicking at a small target such as the knee and don't want to risk missing, then lengthen your weapon. It was taught to me as a completly different kick AKA "Knee Kick" hint hint.

 

[MisterMike]

Another neat side-kick: the knife-edge side out of a wide kneel in Shield and Mace

I was wondering how you personally execute this kick, both in the technique and in Form 4.

I run it as a thrusting side kick, pivoting on my base leg to engage my hips. In these kicks, the base leg points it's heel towards the target.

Running this on the right side is pretty easy, but as for left sided kicks, as in the second side in Form 4, I have an awkward time rotating back to end in my horse stance for the beginning of Five Swords.

Thanks!

 

[rmcrobertson]

Maybe try a slicing knife-edge side out of the wide kneels, and continue the arc of the kick so that you can balance.

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Well, how we teach it in my school is that your toes basically point toward 6 o'clock. Seems it's easier to balance. I find it so, anyway. I can be harder for some I've noticed, but it's great once you get it down.

 

[MisterMike]

Wow - this is an oldie..but I think I would have missed Robert's reply if you hadn't revived it, so thanks!

The first side of Shield and Mace is easy to finish because you continue pivoting on your left foot after the kick counter-clockwise into a horse for the second side.

But ending the second side of Shield and Mace, you have to retract your kick to plant back into a horse facing 12:00, and if you run it as a thrust as I was taught, it's a lil' awkward.

It's interesting though, if you run it with a thrust, you must leave the wide-kneel stance to gain height before doing the thrust kick (which is downward, not outward inmy case), but if you stay low like Robert mentioned, the slice would work nicely and compliment the slicing handsword in the previous move.

Lata,

 

[Ceicei]

The angle of my supporting foot changes direction depending upon how high my side kick goes....

- Ceicei

 

[TigerWoman]

I read this old thread thanks to Ceicei bringing it back. I kept thinking well they always could do that sidekick to the knee or kidney (side), then pivot the supporting foot further -point toes back and sidekick higher to the head.
I have to do that in form. It also lends itself to to a sidekick and immediate high round.

Never heard of this "knife kick"--we don't do it. I would think the heel of a regular sidekick would be much more effective than the side of the foot. I'm sure I could break the knee easy with a low sidekick. I doubt it with a "knife" kick.

Anyone else know if this works as well? It sounds like it is a low crescent.
I don't know how the power could be generated to break the knee. Or is the target lower-the shin? I'm kind of thinking out loud. I'm TKD.

 

[teej]

This is very interesting to me as I can't stand when someone tells me they are throwing a side kick and I look at it and it is a round house kick and they don't know. But I have identified a common problem that causes this that I will get into later.

I totally agree with Mr. Billings, that there is no chamber with the lead leg side kick as in Long Two if your intent is to "jab with it. My understanding is that in the early days Kenpo guys on the circuit were known for groin kicks [i did not say or mean to imply side kicks to the groin] and for "jabbing" with their front leg side kick. [Doc, in your opinion, is this historically correct?]

As Mr. Billings pointed out, this lead leg side kick can be devestating, but after the student learns how to use proper body mechanics of pivoting, lining the hip and heel up, and thrusting. So to get to this point, I start at the begining.

I teach beginers front leg side kicks, to the height of waist level or below. For example, in a left neutral bow kicking to 12 with the left leg. [this is teaching beginers to side kick, I'm not talking about the Long 2 kick. This is how I approach getting the body mechanics down for a thrusting side kick, not snapping.]

I have my students chamber their left leg with their knee lifted and pointed to 3 o'clock. Sometimes I'll actually hold a pad at 3 and make them knee it before throwing the side kick to 12. I also have them pick their foot up and keep it flat to the ground, not toes pointed down. The supporting leg foot, r foot, will as they execute the side kick, pivot on the ball and end with their toes pointing to at least 3, but the strong kickers end up pivoting their support foot so their toes point to 6 when side kicking to 12. Again this is developing for the thrusting side kick. A snapping or jabbing front leg side kick does not need the supporting foot to pivot.

I have seen many students that will end up with a perfectly formed side kick foot and think it is a side kick, but when I watch them execute the kick, it comes out as a round house and ends up with side kick foot formation. When I futher examine their execution, the problem usually stems from their chamber. 9 times out of 10 they have chambered the leg with their kicking foot behind the supporting legs knee. From this position the leg arcs out like a round house, their is no thrust. If their is any thrusting motion from this chamber, it comes in the very last part of the kick. I am sure that there are individuals that can pull this off from this chambered position, but to eliminate my constantly correcting this, I teach chambering the foot in front of the supporting leg.

Why not with the toes pointed down? Only because in my limited opinon, it is something else the student has to remember to do, pull the toes up, straighten the foot, thrust out the heel. The foot starts from being flat on the floor, so I have my students keep their foot in that position and just lift it up. As Mr. Robertson pointed out, it can be done from this position. I can do it from this position and I originally learned from this position. But I have corrected so many errors in side kicks and a lot of them were corrected just by having the student pick the foot up flat.

Again referencing the kick in Long Two, you pick the foot up flat and snap or jab it. The ones I have seen picking their leg up with the toes pointed towards the ground in long two, again, usually [not always] end up snapping out a round house that has a the foot formed like a side kick at the end.

After they get this down with the pivots pretty good, then I will introduce rear leg side kicks. They take more time to execute, but set up correctly, they have their application and can be extremely strong.

Some of you may not agree with my methods, but my students throw side kicks that are side kick and round houses when they are suppose to throw round houses. This is my limited experience. I make no claims to "rule of thumb".

After the proper body mechanics are learned and become natural to the individual, they can execute devasting lead leg side kicks with little chambering as Mr. Billings stated. And as previously stated, the targets I also teach are the knee and shin.

Just my perspective, and I'm sticking to it.
Teej

 

[Faye]

For me, bad habit of not pivoting all the way hurts my ankle and my left leg (upper portion), but if you fully pivot, it doens't happen.

 

[AvPKenpo]

What position is your supporting leg/foot when you do a sidekick. Why do you do this? What do you consider to be correct anatomical alignment of the supporting leg (and why)?

Does Kicking Method effect your foot position (e.g. thrusting, snapping, slicing)?

Does the height of your target effect your supporting leg position?


Cheers Dom :asian:

Kicking method thrusting/snapping is one of the main determining factors on supporting foot position. IMHO.

For example, on a sidesnap kick (targets for this normally are not above the waist except for when the training partner/oppenent are on the ground) the supporting foot does not move, nor should you chamber your kicking foot unless you are dodging a sweep. One of the nice features from this kick is that you are usually following up with an array of attacks from elbows to claws and you are landing forward with this paticular kick.
As for a side thrust kick you will transfer the thrust by turning your hips and pivoting the supporting leg to 6 o'clock. One of the major reasons for the pivot is that you recieve anywhere from 3-6 inches more penetration from this kick to the target.
Also note that usually the sidesnap kick is going in and the sidethrust kick is leaving. The sidethrust has so much more power behind it that it (IMHO) is used more for the final blow, in other words to exit or to incapacitate, whereas the sidesnap kick is used to stun/pause the oppenent/training partner so that you can follow up with your kenpo base.

Michael :asian:

 

[Rob Broad]

The only problem I see with sidekicks is that most people end up throwing a roundhouse action into the kick. This is very common in beginners.

 

[OC Kid]

very true rob. I keep telling my students over and over repeating and repeating, thrust side kick, **** the leg back weapon (heel) pointing at the target , show him your butt checks straight out with the heel and straight back, its a liner tech. out and back..theyre starting to get it.

But i disagree with the guy who said you dont chamber the snap side kick. I teach the complete movement. But I also teach it useing the knife edge of the foot and not the heel on a snap side. I tell my students its not a power kick its more like a boxers jab to set up another tech.

 

[teej]

very true rob. I keep telling my students over and over repeating and repeating, thrust side kick,

"But i disagree with the guy who said you dont chamber the snap side kick. I teach the complete movement. But I also teach it useing the knife edge of the foot and not the heel on a snap side. I tell my students its not a power kick its more like a boxers jab to set up another tech."

I agreee and disagree. The snap side kick in Kenpo is like a jab. This kick should be with the lead leg. I disagree that the kick is chambered. You described it correctly relating it to a boxers jab, but again, a boxed does not chamber their jab. The jab comes from the point of origin from where the lead hand is. The same with the "snap" or jab side kick. The leg comes straight up from the floor and swings out. I may have a different view of chambering than OC does. If by chambering you mean that you bring the kicking foot to the supporting leg knee before you kick as snap kick, that I totally disagree with.

The snap side kick should be done just like it is taught, (maybe I should say how I was taught and how I teach it) in Long 2. You lift the leg straight up from its point of origin from the stance you are in, and the kick hinges out from the knee at that point. You do not chamber the kick to the supporting leg knee before you throw the kick.

I do ask Rob Broad to search back my original reply in this thread where I tried to explain where I have found this problem to originate concerning the leg coming out like a round house, as see if my explaination clears anything up.

Teej

 

[shaolinchi]

Actually there are a few different types of side kicks...Please don't take this the wrong way, I am in no way trying to be the be all end all but as I have learned there is a "snap side kick", which has decent power, but is very quick and requires no pivot if thrown like Knee length and lower...then there is the pivoting side kick, which has plenty more power, but isn't nearly as fast. But in all fairness, one can only truly kick with full power as high as one can hold his or her leg unaided...for me, that isn't very high, being I am quite short.

 

[MisterMike]

"90 cat" for the side snap, "6:00" for the thrust.

Or if you are facing 12:00, kicking to 3:00, 12:00 for the base leg during a snap and 9:00 for the end position of the thrust.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

A side kick can be thrown from several foot positions, depending on the distance between opponents and what situation your in at the time.


:asian:

Agreeing with this and pending the style your side is comming from. You'll be surprised how many variation there actually are.

BL

 

[kensen83]

i see everyone discussing the side kick jab which is a wonderfull kick, but i have not seen anyone really adress a full force thrusting side kick to the midsection of the target. when we first learned this type of thrusting side kick, simply called a thrust kick for my style of shaolin kempo, we would cross behind your lead leg with our back leg, back facing the target and then quickly thrust out our front leg pushing it threw the target, effectivly making it a devistating kick, at higher levels the cross behind is subsituted for a shuffle step motion, which is a much faster movement. this kick obviously woudl be hitting with the flat bottom portions of the foot. IN all versions of the thrusting side kick the pivot is of vital importance with your supporting foot always pivoted so that your back heal is pointing to the target, this maximaizes the power and controle you have over your kick. Just to go totaly off topic for a moment my personal favorite kick however will always be the hook kick, always has been my fastest kicking wepon in tornment fighting.

 

[Simon Curran]

Hi everyone,

In my personal opinion, although I am no great kicker, and definately not an authority on the subject, I think all techniques should be performed in the most natural and anatomically efficient manner, with respect to the side kick, at least for me personally, I pivot my supporting foot fully and strike with the heel, and again just in my humble opinion, this is where I get the most penetration, but it is not a favoured technique of mine anyway, personally I prefer the thrusting front kick with the rear leg, since this is the exact method one uses in kicking down a door and if it is powerful enough to demolish a door jamb then I reckon it should be good enough to take care of most opponents...
Again, just my inconsequential opinion.

 

[rmcrobertson]

In Long Form 2, the snapping side kicks should indeed be "chambered," if by chambered we mean that one transitions back to a cat stance and then to a crane stance (as the hand that just punched pulls back also) before throwing the low (shin-high) knife-edge side and the vertical punch simultaneously. This is also not a bad way to learn/teach a side kick, because it forces students to a) shape the weapon properly (assuming that the low side kick starts with the toe down, then extends the side of the foot), b) rotate the hip, c) pivot on the supporting leg.

The only problem with learning the side kick this way surfaces later, as a strong tendency (in my case, anyway) to chamber the kick and to use the knife-edge of the foot, even when the full chamber and the knife-edge aren't appropriate. But if you consider what I just described to be one extreme and some of the other descriptions on this thread to be the other extreme, we should be learning the full spectrum of choices anyway.

One thing to watch out for, I learned from reading one of Bruce Lee's books--watch out for locking out the knee and the hip, especially when you're not kicking a bag. If I recollect correctly, Mr. Lee actually argued for never doing side-kicks except into a bag, for that reason...