Side kicks

[Dominic Jones]

What position is your supporting leg/foot when you do a sidekick. Why do you do this? What do you consider to be correct anatomical alignment of the supporting leg (and why)?

Does Kicking Method effect your foot position (e.g. thrusting, snapping, slicing)?

Does the height of your target effect your supporting leg position?

For example: a right sidekick to 12:00 (ofclock).
Is you left foot:
A: still in a neutral bow (45 cat) position i.e. toes facing 10:30
B: in a 90 cat i.e. toes facing 9 :00
C: toes facing 7:30
D: toes facing 6:00

As for myself my foot position varies between A and D. I find that the more pivoting I do the stronger the kick and the more solid my base is. I can also kick higher. However, I find that follow up strikes are slower.

The advantage of not pivoting or pivoting only a little is that I can deliver follow up strikes quicker and that the kick is slightly (maybe??) faster. But the kick feels like it is stressing my knee joints.

Cheers Dom :asian:

 

[Zepp]

I try to pivot my supporting foot to 6:00. It usually ends up around 7:30 or so, but I try for 6:00. I do the same for roundhouse kicks as well.

A while ago I developed this bad habit of not fully pivoting my foot, and it led to some minor knee problems. Because of that, I can say that you want to pivot as much as possible to keep your body weight over the front of your knee, not the side.

The pivoting foot is also where you generate most of your power for these types of kicks. I think of my supporting foot as a lever that turns my hip.

 

[MJS]

Are you doing the kick with your front or rear leg? You should always pivot, even if it is just a little. Of course you will feel pain in your knee. You are turning your body- 95% of it, while your knee- the other 5% is not moving! Your heel does not have to turn all the way, but you should at least go half way.

Mike

 

[Zepp]

Originally posted by MJS
Are you doing the kick with your front or rear leg? You should always pivot, even if it is just a little. Of course you will feel pain in your knee. You are turning your body- 95% of it, while your knee- the other 5% is not moving! Your heel does not have to turn all the way, but you should at least go half way.

Mike, re-read my post. You and I agree with each other.

 

[Kenpomachine]

I think you are talking about two different kicks here, though quite similar. The first one is the proper side or knife kick /pivoting of foot ending at 9:00) and the other a variation, which in TKD has another name, as the mechanics and timing are different.

But I might be wrong.

 

[Disco]

Not really sure what you mean. A side kick can be thrown from several foot positions, depending on the distance between opponents and what situation your in at the time.

You can deliver a sidekick with the foot position at 10:30-45 deg. You are face to face. The call it a sidekick because the striking foot is turned sideways. Target areas are knee, shin and instep.
You don't turn the hips with this kick. Now from the 9:00-90 deg position. The hips turn, you are now facing sideways to opponent. Target areas (depending on flexibility) are knee, groin, hip, stomach, or chest. From these two positions you can still deliver additional hand / elbow strikes and sweeps.

Now going to the 7:30 and 6:00 positions. These two are interchangeable depending on personal preferance. What these positions do is allow you to go much higher with your kick. Also allows you to do multiple kicks - side, roundhouse , hook and turning back kick. You have better balance from these positions. It's kind of hard to follow up with quick hand strikes from these positions. Not saying that it can't be done, but these positions are more athletic in nature and not everybody has the same abilities. They do lend themselves to the spinning backfist though. You also will be able to push off on the supporting leg stronger, thus adding more power to the side kick.

Hope I was able to afford an additional viewpoint

:asian:

 

[Kenpomachine]

Disco, thanks for the clarification. :asian: I think you've explained perfectly what Dominic Jones was asking for and being of help for the rest of us.

I still think they have different names in TKD, but I only trained TKD for a short period of time (6 months) as it was the only martial art available at the moment , and I mixed and mess up all the names but two.

But even by your description, they're still variations of the basic kick. At least that's how I see them... and taught them when helping my instructors.

[Note] While practicing it today, it was more of 10 for me for the hips and chest height . Knee doesn't suffer so much as it's best aligned with foot Maybe that's also the reason the kick has more power?

 

[Doc]

Gentlemen & ladies,

Although the foot position of the supporting leg is an integral part of the execution of the/a "side kick," it is, as pointed out in an earlier post in this string, "activity dedicated."

The more important issue from an anatomical perspective is the position of the contact foot relative to the height of the kick. What is the position of the kicking foot?

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Doc
Gentlemen & ladies,

Although the foot position of the supporting leg is an integral part of the execution of the/a "side kick," it is, as pointed out in an earlier post in this string, "activity dedicated."

The more important issue from an anatomical perspective is the position of the contact foot relative to the height of the kick. What is the position of the kicking foot?

The position of the kicking foot?? If the kick is going to the knee, the side or blade of the foot could be used. To the midsection, I'd use the heel of the foot.

Not sure if I'm reading your question correctly. Is this the answer you were looking for?

Mike

 

[Zepp]

Originally posted by Doc
The more important issue from an anatomical perspective is the position of the contact foot relative to the height of the kick. What is the position of the kicking foot?

The kicking foot should generally be parallel to the floor. If the toes of the kicking foot are higher than the heel, it isn't a sidekick anymore.

Our style teaches us to always use the heel for a sidekick. I know some styles teach you to use the "knife edge" of the foot, but I don't understand why that is. It seems to me that using your foot that way could be useful for strikes to soft tissue targets, but the heel works just as well or better.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Zepp
The kicking foot should generally be parallel to the floor. If the toes of the kicking foot are higher than the heel, it isn't a sidekick anymore.

Our style teaches us to always use the heel for a sidekick. I know some styles teach you to use the "knife edge" of the foot, but I don't understand why that is. It seems to me that using your foot that way could be useful for strikes to soft tissue targets, but the heel works just as well or better.

I agree with your assessment and methodology. The knife-edge kick anatomically may only be used properly when executed below the hip flexor. The “side kick” as most understand it, should be executed, as you stated, with the heel and the ankle aligned as if standing. The “side kick” may be executed below the waist, but may not however be used against a vertical target. The "knife-edge sidekick" is a product of the Okinawan/Japanese’s Arts and is not represented in the traditional Chinese Martial Sciences from which "Kenpo" comes from.

 

[Scott Bonner]

Hi. I have 2 questions:

"The “side kick” may be executed below the waist, but may not however be used against a vertical target."

I'm assuming you mean the side kick that strikes with the heel of the foot, like a TKD sidekick. If so, it seems that verticle targets would be fine for it -- like kicking the torso or the knee or the inner thigh, but not the groin since their legs get in the way. You couldn't kick a verticle surface turned 90 degrees to you. For that you'd need another weapon, like a hook kick. You couldn't kick a horizontal surface. For that you'd need another weapon, like an axe kick (also called hammer kick?). Essentially, the target has to be verticle, flat to you, and unobstructed on one side. What am I missing here?

"The "knife-edge sidekick" is a product of the Okinawan/Japanese’s Arts and is not represented in the traditional Chinese Martial Sciences from which "Kenpo" comes from."

I've heard you say this before. I had though that the Kenpo of the 50's (Chow's material) was pretty "Okinawan" (meaning hard style but with some circles, and still generating power the hard-style ways). I saw video this past weekend of Mr. Parker doing early stuff with Chuck Sullivan, and it looked awfully Okinawan to me, and I could see early versions of today's techniques in what they were doing. This influence does not seem to have been purged when the Chinese material was brought in (from what my largely untrained eye can see).

To put it another way, I had thought that early kenpo was from Okinawan/Japanese arts, later greatly modified by Mr. Parker to include elements from Chinese, Phillipine, and Indonesian arts as well as some ideas of his own.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Peace,
Scott

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Scott Bonner
Hi. I have 2 questions:

"The “side kick” may be executed below the waist, but may not however be used against a vertical target."

I'm assuming you mean the side kick that strikes with the heel of the foot, like a TKD sidekick.

Well I'm talking about the side kick where the foot is essentially aligned as it would be if you were standing on it, but emphasizing the heel as the weapon. From that alignment to kick a vertical target would be akin to stepping on an uneven surface with your body weight and would have a negative impact on and probably damage the ankle.

If so, it seems that verticle targets would be fine for it -- like kicking the torso or the knee or the inner thigh, but not the groin since their legs get in the way.

No not using the guidelines I previously stated.

"The "knife-edge sidekick" is a product of the Okinawan/Japanese’s Arts and is not represented in the traditional Chinese Martial Sciences from which "Kenpo" comes from."
I've heard you say this before. I had though that the Kenpo of the 50's (Chow's material) was pretty "Okinawan" (meaning hard style but with some circles, and still generating power the hard-style ways). I saw video this past weekend of Mr. Parker doing early stuff with Chuck Sullivan, and it looked awfully Okinawan to me, and I could see early versions of today's techniques in what they were doing. This influence does not seem to have been purged when the Chinese material was brought in (from what my largely untrained eye can see).

Actually, it was a mixture of all of the influences on Chow in the islands. Lots of Okinawan/Japanese influence for sure, but Chow had Chinese Roots and was only interested in applications and abandoned the usual formal way of Chinese teaching that emphasized forms to teach body mechanics.

To put it another way, I had thought that early kenpo was from Okinawan/Japanese arts, later greatly modified by Mr. Parker to include elements from Chinese, Phillipine, and Indonesian arts as well as some ideas of his own.

Actually all of those elements were there before but, remember people like Chow and Emperado were setting the training which was pretty "loose" and was pretty much as primitive as most arts were outside of China. Of course the Kenpo of the 50's was fairly linear, but was distinct in that in used rapid fire kicks and strikes beyond the traditional "one punch kill" of the Okinawan/Japanese. Parker's first book on Kenpo looks rather tame today but caused a significant stir in its day. He displayed all of these "combinations" and talked about "nerves" and their effect. The key is Ed Parker constantly "evolved," and most kept doing whatever they learned at the time and rarely changed or moved forward as a whole. Of course you could get a black belt easily in a year in those days in ant style if you really committed and were a physical contact person. Norris, Lewis, Ibrao, etc all got their blacks in less than a year. Students got their belts so fast there was no need for different color belts, and "belt tips" actually made more sense. There just wasn't that much Kenpo material until Parker began to expand.

Back to the "sidekick." Parker never did a knife edge sidekick above his waist. Ark Wong (along with "Tiny") stopped that when he first came to Southern California, and he never did it again when he understood why not. He told me that, "... all those guys will have hip surgery one day." Talking about some of the "fancy kickers" as he called them of the day. That came true across all styles. Wallace, Norris, Both Takehashi's, Choi, and a number of significant kenpo names have all had single and double hip surgery. Over time, how and where you kick and stretch has a huge impact on the hip flexor. Kenpo has all the kicks that are anatomically correct and Parker himself did not do any that weren't.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Scott you know you're never wrong, just a tad off target now and then.
I haven't forgot you good buddy, I've just been mad busy as a one armed, one legged ninja doing a hand stand in a fight in a Chinese restaurant parking lot.

I'm stuck in la la land doing a thing for my employer.

 

[Scott Bonner]

Thanks much!

We must do the side kick differently, as I am not seeing how it would damage the ankle, or how it is akin to stepping on an uneven surface. Whatever the issue is, I'm not visualizing it.

(As reference, for right side kick from right neutral bow, 1) I pick my right knee up and turn hips while pivoting the left foot and pointing my tushy at the bad guy, then 2) launch foot out horizontally, with toes and heel on same plane, and hitting squarely with the heel and not the rest of the foot, then 3) pull leg back into first position, then 4) put right foot down into stance while shifting left foot. I though this was how everyone did it. <shrug>)

I'll ask my brother (a TKD guy) about it and see what he thinks. I know from asking that my brother has no use for the knife-edge kick at all, at any height, though I think he aknowledges it's utility to the back of the knee with the caveat that it's risky.

Thanks for responding.

Peace,
Scott

 

[rmcrobertson]

Just to note, I was originally taught a side-kick (by my first and still senior instructor, Toni, who has a certificate to open a school from Mr. Parker, before anybody starts yelllin') as a knife-edge, out of a crane stance with toes down, to ensure that I a) pivoted the supporting foot, b) shaped the weapon.

When she taught it, I thought then--and I think now--that this was as undiluted a kenpo side-kick, as pure an expression of what Mr. Parker thought, as one is likely to find. It's stood me in good stead since.

See Long Form 2, where--I agree--the kick is often done far too high. I was taught this as (at most) a shin-to-knee kick. Specifically, I was taught it's a kick to be used when a bad guy on your flank grabs your shoulder...

And I might add--because of the way Toni taught, I skipped most of the injuries.

The other side-kick's different, of course.

Thanks.

 

[Doc]

See Long Form 2, where--I agree--the kick is often done far too high. I was taught this as (at most) a shin-to-knee kick. Specifically, I was taught it's a kick to be used when a bad guy on your flank grabs your shoulder...

You make an excellent point, and I agree most do that "side knife edge" kick too high. From my perspective it is because its application isn't generally taught.

I was taught the kick has almost no chamber, and is aimed at the shin (lots of nerves) to control/stop the forward leg, and it is a set up for the mora beat timing follow strike to a gall bladder point on the rib cage. Executed correctly, it is quite effective.

 

[Michael Billings]

No chambering as done in Long Form 2. With no change in height ... A jab with the foot rather than a "chop" in this instance. Same target as Robert and Doc.

I use a knife-edge and a side kick. Both which are clearly defined by others. As my students progress in sparring, I teach a side thrust from point of origin without a "chamber" action. It derives power from the counter-rotation of the hips, amongst a confluence of other factors. This came from Joe Lewis and Raymond McCallum seminars in the 80's, but it still works just fine.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
No chambering as done in Long Form 2. With no change in height ... A jab with the foot rather than a "chop" in this instance. Same target as Robert and Doc.

I use a knife-edge and a side kick. Both which are clearly defined by others. As my students progress in sparring, I teach a side thrust from point of origin without a "chamber" action. It derives power from the counter-rotation of the hips, amongst a confluence of other factors. This came from Joe Lewis and Raymond McCallum seminars in the 80's, but it still works just fine.

Nasty!

 

[Wes Idol]

I agree with both Mr. Chapel and Mr. Billings....no chamber and shoot the kick directly at the shin, with the punch to the ribs. Also, far too many people counter balance. If you ever saw Mr. Parker do this, which I have, he simply used rotation that started from a fully-rotated-neutral-bow and attacked with his mass, as opposed to his strength which would be needed if you shift your axis back for counter balance.

For a "sparring" situation, I offer this application to students as checking someone's side kick, while shooting the punch to their head. Simply giving them other options than the very distructive respiratory meridian target that is attacked in the form.

Respectfully,

WI, HI
UKS

 

[rmcrobertson]

Actually, the point is...to develop a range of possibilities for the side-kick that fit different situations and applications. The point, also, is that that "chambering," may be useful for other purposes, which is why it's in Long 2.

Another neat side-kick: the knife-edge side out of a wide kneel in Shield and Mace...