Should getting a Black Belt be this stressful?

[Gorilla]

My kids have been thru ordeal BB tests one of them was 13 hours. My only problem is not letting the parents watch. To many problems now a days. I would instruct the parents to remain quite and if they don't follow the rules their child fails.

I am a big believer that you should not let your kids out of your sight at that age. I am very suspicious of someone who would suggest that I should.

 

[cay22]

Well first off if your son is not strong enough mentally to take rejection than he should not be testing for his BB. Sorry but that is simply the truth, dis-appointment is part of life. I am pretty sure when he first strated riding his bike he fell a couple of time but he kept getting back on to try again and finally it came together. We learn more by failing than by winning. Some of my best BB are those that had to comeback and test again so they did not fail but rather they grew, thisis what needs to be told to your son.

My second concern is a close venue, my test has portion that we ask the parents to please leave not because we do not want them but simply so the student can focus on there techniques. But when parents are told they cannot be there, I have a problem with it. We kindly ask for the parents to get up but if they insist we let them stay with them knowing if the child is looking at them and getting any help they will most likely fail. That always helps them but they just go into my office and can watch from my two way mirror so they really can see them the child just cannot see the parent but we also have that for spouses as well.

If I was you I would not let him test for another year just so he can grow emotionally more, but that is simply up to you and his instructor.

Just to state it, he has failed pre-testings and has had to wait to test, he was bummed but he kept going. I think it is different to fail than to have the chance to try taken from you at the last minute. There is a very long list of things he has had to do to get ready including written tests, Essay, Bio, portfolio, poster board and extra training sessions. To have him do all of this and then take his opportunity away to try is wrong. Since I have no idea what goes on I relied on the Owners knowledge to make the judgment. I was told the only way he would fail was if he quit. I was also told they felt he was ready. I am annoyed with the last minute change of mind. After all that has been said here I am going to speak with the owners and see if I can't get an idea of what goes on. I do not think we will be there for the long haul after this but I feel he should get the chance. I think I have prepared him mentally as best I can and I will hope his want to get his BB will pull him through. I do like your explanation that "they did not fail they grew". I will have to use that

After all of this I really think is a school wants to go hard core and "old school" with their testing they need to be very clear up front and they should have an age limit. Part of me wants to pull him now and part wants to let him try. Thanks all!

 

[puunui]

This is also an interesting thread in light of the disabilities thread from last week. Punuui and several others compared a TKD black belt to a high school diploma and were very clear that they believed that it should be attainable by everyone.

That's true. To me 1st dan is the lowest rank on a scale from 1 through 9 or 10. However, some people look at a "black belt" as the highest rank on the color belt scale. That seems to be the distinction. Personally, I don't see what the big deal is about black belts and children. If someone does not wish to promote children to "black belt" then they shouldn't do so. If others wish to promote kids to black belt, then they can do that as well. Many of my students have gone on to open their own school. I never tell them what to do or how to teach. When they ask if this or that is alright, I always give them the same answer "It's up to you. You are the teacher, not me. Do whatever you want."

The question I have is why TKD seems to have no middle ground. If it exists, where is it? You guys seem to go from one extreme to another. A black belt is either a low level rite of passage, or it is worth risking a child's emotional, physical and mental wellness in its pursuit and parents are barred from witnessing the testing for fear that they will feel compelled to rescue their child. What the hell? Seriously. What the hell?

Personally, I don't believe in overly long, multi day, grueling ordeals for tests, black belt or otherwise. But that is just me. If others feel that sort of thing is necessary, because they feel that "black belt" is some sort of huge rite of passage, then they are free to do that.

 

[cay22]

My kids have been thru ordeal BB tests one of them was 13 hours. My only problem is not letting the parents watch. To many problems now a days. I would instruct the parents to remain quite and if they don't follow the rules their child fails.

I am a big believer that you should not let your kids out of your sight at that age. I am very suspicious of someone who would suggest that I should.

They do have a wall of one way mirrors separating the waiting room and the floor so it would be easy to let the parents sit and view without distracting the kids.

 

[Archtkd]

Okay I want to start with a disclaimer, I do not want this to turn into a is he too young discussion. I have read the posts and I know how some of you feel about kids as BBs. In his school they do allow kids as young as 7-8 to test for BB so that is just the way it is there (Although I am beginning to think they should raise the age).

That being said here is what I need input on. My son has been taking TKD for 3.5 yrs and he is 8. He is slated to go up for review board this Sat the 10th. The review board at his school starts at 9:30am on a Sat and they black out the windows and no one is allowed in even parents. The students bring a lunch and it lasts 5-8 hrs depending on the number of students. After the review board (if they pass) they get ready for the Black Belt Show.
-Kate

I stopped reading after the line about parents. Why would anyone tell me I can't see what my 8-year-old son or daughter is doing in a blacked-out room with a bunch of adults, for an entire day? Would you agree to such terms if this was a day-long spiritual ordeal being conducted by nuns, pastors, rabbis, imams, etc, in a blacked-out house of worship? Would you agree to a parental ban if this was a Boyscout sort of skills review of 8-year old children in a campsite blocked out to the general public? Who agrees to this kind of nonsense?

 

[Instructor]

They do have a wall of one way mirrors separating the waiting room and the floor so it would be easy to let the parents sit and view without distracting the kids.

To me this seems ideal.

 

[Steve]

What is cultish about it? We are in a closed off environment is all. As I mentioned before the parents can sit and watch all their tests up to their highest rank. We do not do sacrifices or chant or pay homage to any great power. We are not secretive. The parents are told what is going on and why they are not allowed to be there.

Who the hell knows what's going on in there? You refuse to allow the parents to witness it. That's what makes it cultish.

So now you are questioning my parental skills and common sense as well as my methodology of testing...any other insults you would like to hurl over my way why you are at it?

I'm certainly questioning your policy of refusing to allow parents to witness the testing if they choose to. I have no idea what methodology of testing you use, and I don't know what kind of a parent you are. I'm sure you're father of the year. The policy outlined by you is alarming to me.

Again, as I already said, it is hard to explain to someone who is not part of our school or its culture. If you were, you would understand, since you are not, please do not question my parental skills, common sense or what we do without first training with us.

And again you wonder what about this is cultish? And again, this has nothing to do with your parental skills, however much you'd like to personalize it. It's about your school's policy to refuse parents access to witness what you admit is testing so severe that you yourself felt compelled to "rescue" the children.

Again, if you bothered to read my other postings you would see that the parents see how we test our kids through out their duration of learning from us. They know exactly what their kids will be getting into once they are about to take a Jr. BB test. They know why we do not allow them to stick around for that particular test. Clear and simple...they are not without common sense nor are we behaving in a cultist manner.

And again if you would recall your own post where you mentioned testing children so severely that you felt compelled to save them, you might get an inkling of where to an objective, outside perspective, the policy would be seen as irresponsible. You're accusing me of failing to read your posts, but I only have your own words to which I can react.

Congrats on your instincts

Thank you.

...guess what, I have three great kids (23 year old girl, 17 year old boy, and 15 year old boy). They are strong independent thinkers as well. I have trusted my instincts as well and it has served me as well. My boys have both been through this test and are better for it. Nothing they face in school has yet to put the type of pressure on them like their JR. BB test. Because of that, they don't stress out on such little things because they know they can handle it.

Were you able to witness their testing? Not really relevant, but I'm curious. Regarding your parenting, as I said before, I'm sure you're a great parent. And again, the actual testing isn't really the question, because you could literally say anything you'd like about it. No one gets to see it, because it's a closed door ceremony. Do you really not understand the distinction? We can't even get to the actual test because it all stops at two things: your admission that the test is so severe that even you, familiar with the test, felt compelled to "rescue" kids from it, and it's done behind closed doors where a parent cannot see what is happening to a minor child.

What we do, which again you really have no clue about, outside of some words typed here, may not be in the best interest of YOUR kids, but do not state that it is not in the best interest or all kids. We have raised several world champions and a slew of national champions, we have black belts that have gone on to be pastors and run their own charities to help feed those in need.We have Jr. BB's who travel the world doing seminars and entertaining the US Troops AND still keep a 3.0 GPA in their school. You may not agree with how we run our BB test. Fine...don't train with us, but do not begin to sit there and insult our the parents who do allow their kids to train here and do not accuse of of cultist like behavior just because you don't know or understand how we function.

And Michael Jackson's dad raised a family of motown superstars, and he was later exposed as both physically and mentally abusive to his kids. Bob Knight produced a number of championship teams and NBA standouts, but he was an angry jackass. Jerry Sandusky taught as a part of one of the most successful and beloved college football coaching staffs ever, and he was a child molester.

What's your point? Is this an appeal to authority? That because you have a good record, every policy you have is wise? We only find out about these guys after the fact, and when it's exposed everyone is surprised.

The point is that it's closed doors and promises of success that take advantage of parents who trust too willingly, allowing authority figures to take advantage. That your school promotes a situation like this is alarming in exactly the way outlined above. As I said before, I just can't imagine anyone thinking it's a good idea. Jerry Sandusky was, by all accounts a GREAT coach. Bob Knight, too. I could literally name dozens of situations similar to these. The one thing they all have in common is that they all involve keeping secrets and separating the parents from the children.

 

[puunui]

The point is that it's closed doors and promises of success that take advantage of parents who trust too willingly, allowing authority figures to take advantage. That your school promotes a situation like this is alarming in exactly the way outlined above. As I said before, I just can't imagine anyone thinking it's a good idea. Jerry Sandusky was, by all accounts a GREAT coach. Bob Knight, too. I could literally name dozens of situations similar to these. The one thing they all have in common is that they all involve keeping secrets and separating the parents from the children.

I think that if parents want to watch, they should be allowed to. Afterall, they are the ones paying. I've asked certain parents to wait outside/come back later and not watch class, but that was an individual situation involving a disruptive parent, rather than a general rule. However, I don't know it if is a logical or appropriate conclusion that just because a school does have a closed door black belt test, that something fishy is going on. In the situation that you give above, I think the separation of the parent from the child is more about isolating a potential victim or victim from others, which wouldn't be the situation at a belt test with 20-100 or more people participating, of all ages, children and adults.

 

[puunui]

I would never teach a child without providing ready viewing access to the parents as well. My lawyer was very clear on that when we went over my operational plan for potential liability. Sometimes even the perception that something isn't kosher is enough to bring in all sorts of legal entanglements even when you've done nothing wrong at all.

I might even go so far as to say you should never be alone with a child. I think I told this story before, but I was judging at a friend's belt test and went to use the bathroom during a break. I was walking out when this small boy looked up at me and asked me to pull his pants down so he could pee. I told him he should ask his mother or father to help him with that. We were the only ones in the restroom. But imagine if I had done as the boy requested and someone swung the restroom door open in the middle of that? How do you explain that one? Talk about stress at a belt test....

 

[ETinCYQX]

I'm gonna get SO much crap for this, but I don't care.

My BB grading was an hour and a half. The instructor has taught me for my entire life, coached me in multiple national and international tournaments, and was the one who prepared me for my grading. The instructor knows whether or not his students are black belt material, why put them through the ringer to prove a point?

 

[Steve]

I'm gonna get SO much crap for this, but I don't care.

My BB grading was an hour and a half. The instructor has taught me for my entire life, coached me in multiple national and international tournaments, and was the one who prepared me for my grading. The instructor knows whether or not his students are black belt material, why put them through the ringer to prove a point?

Why would you get crap?


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[puunui]

Why would you get crap?

I think some people might be of the opinion that if you do not go through a long arduous ordeal, then your "black belt" isn't earned, it was given to you, which is not the same thing as going through a long process of sweating, straining, bleeding, suffering, etc.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Why would you get crap?


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Maybe not "crap", but seems like everyone but me advocates 4 and 5 hour tests designed to break students. I don't see a need for it.

Most of the time, BJJ brown belts are just handed a black belt one day right?

 

[ETinCYQX]

I think some people might be of the opinion that if you do not go through a long arduous ordeal, then your "black belt" isn't earned, it was given to you, which is not the same thing as going through a long process of sweating, straining, bleeding, suffering, etc.

Yes, that's it.

To me, I spent the 7 years or so combined experience leading up to it sweating, straining bleeding and suffering .

 

[puunui]

Maybe not "crap", but seems like everyone but me advocates 4 and 5 hour tests designed to break students.

I don't advocate that.

I don't see a need for it.

Neither do I. It is just a 1st dan, not a frat initiation.

Most of the time, BJJ brown belts are just handed a black belt one day right?

That is how it is done here. I find it ironic that the style that is in my opinion one of the hardest to get a "black belt" in, has no real promotion test process. They just hand you your new belt, and often times it is someone else's old belt to boot.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I don't advocate that.

Neither do I. It is just a 1st dan, not a frat initiation.

That is how it is done here. I find it ironic that the style that is in my opinion one of the hardest to get a "black belt" in, has no real promotion test process. They just hand you your new belt, and often times it is someone else's old belt to boot.

When I really do own my own dojang and don't have to answer to an instructor I have toyed with the idea of doing promotions this way, just handing them to martial artists who deserve them. We used to do that with stripes in our PTF/early WTF era. If you deserve it, you deserve it.

I have one student in mind, as well, that I'd like to give my black belt to when he reaches first Dan. Not sure I'll still have anything to do with his tkd training at that point though.

I'd forgotten actually you mentioned shorter, less grueling tests. Sorry to exclude you, sir

 

[Steve]

Maybe not "crap", but seems like everyone but me advocates 4 and 5 hour tests designed to break students. I don't see a need for it.

Most of the time, BJJ brown belts are just handed a black belt one day right?

Yup. Well, there's some celebration, and in my experience they've been handed out at special events like a seminar, but, I've never seen anyone test for it. The idea is that you are testing every day.

But just to be clear, I'm not against tough tests. To each his own.

I'm very against a person I've hired presuming to ever attempt to exclude me from anything concerning a child of mine.

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[ETinCYQX]

Yup. Well, there's some celebration, and in my experience they've been handed out at special events like a seminar, but, I've never seen anyone test for it. The idea is that you are testing every day.

But just to be clear, I'm not against tough tests. To each his own.

I'm very against a person I've hired presuming to ever attempt to exclude me from anything concerning a child of mine.

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I'm not against them I just don't use them myself

 

[ballen0351]

All i can say is im shocked any parent would let there small children under 13 out of there site with any adult. There are no background checks for martial art instructors. You only know what they want you to know. Skilled child molesters are just as skilled at gaining a parents trust as they are the childs. I dont allow my kids anywhere without me or my wife. Even in school we pop in from time to time just to check up on things.

My question would be is an 8 year old black belt the same as a 28 year old black belt? Or do they need to test for an adult belt later when they are an adult? If its the same test, to same standards then i doubt its very challenging for the adult. And if it has different standards, which it would have to be different just due to size strength and stamina then there is no point in keeping the kids hidden from the parents. Keep them in a different room ok as long as they can see whats going on but blacking out windows really were not teaching some super top secret death art. There are martial art schools in every town and clips of everything ever taught on you tube no need for all the shhhhhh this is so secret we cant even show your mom or we will have to kill her crap. Its martial arts not the CIA.

 

[Twin Fist]

mine was about 90 minutes for 1st dan

2nd was MUCH longer