Should getting a Black Belt be this stressful?

[miguksaram]

Just an update. I spoke with Sensei Sharkey about this last night. He said that if the parent was so adamant that they had to be there, even after we explained the reason why, then he would allow it. However they would have to literally sit in one place from beginning to end (4-5 hours). No phone calls, no walking around, no going in or out the door, no talking to any instructors or anyone else in the school, no bathroom break, unless the kids are on their own break, and even then no talking to the students. They cannot say anything to their kid, they cannot step on the floor for any reason whatsoever. If we felt the kid was being distracted like turning to look at mom or dad, then we would again explain to the parent that it was best not to be there. If they still did not want to go then we would dismiss the participant from the test as they cannot maintain the focus needed.

I also misinformed the board here. The minimum age for a Jr. BB is 12 not 10 years old. We had one girl that was 11 and studied with us for 6 years and was literally coming in 5 days for 3 of those 6 years.

This is her doing traditional bo at age 12 at the WKA World Championships in Italy. She is also one of the top players in her traveling soccer league, and on the honor roll at school. She is just one of many of our success stories. Yes, we are tough on them during their test, but the results are great martial artists and great kids.

Steve,
To answer your question, yes I was present at both of my kids' belt test. When my oldest was having his Jr. BB I was have my adult BB test in the school. When my youngest was having his Jr. BB test I was on the testing board at that point. Anyone wanting to see pics of the black belt test are more than welcome to visit my FB page.

 

[decepticon]

miguksaram, perhaps if a parent was so adamant to observe, it might help to put them at a good distance away from the candidates, or at least from their candidate. And also to make all the rules very clear to both them and their child, especially that they were not to communicate nor look at each other for support. I think your Sensei's exception rules would be workable, even for someone like me. You might even consider writing the rules up and having the parent sign them so that there could be no room for argument if anyone had to be dismissed.

But most importantly, to be sure that the parent knows WHY you have these rules. If I felt that a rule had a valid reason, I would probably obey it even if I didn't like it much. However, if the reason seems dumb (or is unknown), I am less likely to comply.

The issue is not that I want to protect my child from all pain (hence the vaccinations and orthodontia), it is that until she is fully able to stand up for herself, to the extent of questioning authority if she feels something is not right and has the ability to protect herself from harm, if it is in my power, I will be there to do it for her. As she matures, I find that I have to be the "mama bear" less and less. However, activities conducted behind blacked out windows automatically imply that there is some reason why they can not be conducted openly. And they are fraught with far too many opportunties for wrong doing for my tastes.

The school we attend does hard testing. Our instructor won't let anyone test who hasn't previously demonstrated that they know the material. However, his purpose with testing is to determine whether the student can perform the material under pressure, both physical and psychological. We are supposed to feel like quitting. So that we can demonstrate our growing ability to fight through that adrenalin recoil and keep going. I have to confess that during my last testing, I felt like shouting, "I am too old for this crap!", and sitting down right in the middle of the test. I snicker now at the thought, wondering what the instructor and other BB's would have done with me if I had given in to such thinking! But the bottom line is that I didn't, and I pressed on and did some of the best knife fighting I have ever done.

Friends and family are welcome to sit in folding chairs along side the mat. I have never seen a problem with anyone trying to intercede for their relative (however, young children don't do upper level testing at our school). There is always plenty of distraction - other students coming in for their classes, people milling about, phones ringing, etc. Just like there would most likely be in a real life self defense situation. The candidates are expected to master their own concentration. During breaks we are allowed to get a drink or go to the bathroom. There is little talking because the testing is just too hard. Candidates are usually winded and sometimes approaching exhaustion. Our heads are "in the game" and we are in no mood to visit with spectators. I can see how 8yo's would have definite problems with attention span in a similar situation.

 

[miguksaram]

miguksaram, perhaps if a parent was so adamant to observe, it might help to put them at a good distance away from the candidates, or at least from their candidate. And also to make all the rules very clear to both them and their child, especially that they were not to communicate nor look at each other for support. I think your Sensei's exception rules would be workable, even for someone like me. You might even consider writing the rules up and having the parent sign them so that there could be no room for argument if anyone had to be dismissed.

Unfortunately we do not have a big enough space to place them at a good distance. We have never had any problems with parents insisting on being there. As I stated before, the parents are able to observe the belt tests up to the highest guep/kyu rank. So they do have a good idea on what the kid is going to go through. However, if the situation arises when we meet the parent who insists on being there, I am more than sure that Sensei Sharkey will make it quite clear what the expectations are. He is not one to be subtle about such things.

But most importantly, to be sure that the parent knows WHY you have these rules. If I felt that a rule had a valid reason, I would probably obey it even if I didn't like it much. However, if the reason seems dumb (or is unknown), I am less likely to comply.

Again, we make this all clear as to why do not invite them to watch in the first place. If comes down to them staying, we have covered as well. If they feel they cannot follow the rules of being there, then the student will not test for his/her Jr. BB. They can just test for their adult bb when that time comes. This does not mean that we will stop teaching them. It just means they will not have a black piece of cloth to go around their waist for a little longer.

The issue is not that I want to protect my child from all pain (hence the vaccinations and orthodontia), it is that until she is fully able to stand up for herself, to the extent of questioning authority if she feels something is not right and has the ability to protect herself from harm, if it is in my power, I will be there to do it for her. As she matures, I find that I have to be the "mama bear" less and less. However, activities conducted behind blacked out windows automatically imply that there is some reason why they can not be conducted openly. And they are fraught with far too many opportunties for wrong doing for my tastes.

I totally agree with that and for the record, the black window thing is the OP's situation. Our school does not black anything out. Parents can stand outside an look inside. We just do not allow them in the building.

The school we attend does hard testing. Our instructor won't let anyone test who hasn't previously demonstrated that they know the material. However, his purpose with testing is to determine whether the student can perform the material under pressure, both physical and psychological. We are supposed to feel like quitting. So that we can demonstrate our growing ability to fight through that adrenalin recoil and keep going. I have to confess that during my last testing, I felt like shouting, "I am too old for this crap!", and sitting down right in the middle of the test. I snicker now at the thought, wondering what the instructor and other BB's would have done with me if I had given in to such thinking! But the bottom line is that I didn't, and I pressed on and did some of the best knife fighting I have ever done.

Exactly!! All of our Jr. & adult BB candidates are hand selected to test. If you were not asked to test, then you were not deemed ready. The only thing that causes you to fail, is if you quit, if you have such a major brain fart and forget everything you have learned, or if you are not just putting forth the effort in the test that you should be.

Friends and family are welcome to sit in folding chairs along side the mat. I have never seen a problem with anyone trying to intercede for their relative (however, young children don't do upper level testing at our school). There is always plenty of distraction - other students coming in for their classes, people milling about, phones ringing, etc. Just like there would most likely be in a real life self defense situation. The candidates are expected to master their own concentration. During breaks we are allowed to get a drink or go to the bathroom. There is little talking because the testing is just too hard. Candidates are usually winded and sometimes approaching exhaustion. Our heads are "in the game" and we are in no mood to visit with spectators. I can see how 8yo's would have definite problems with attention span in a similar situation.

For any of our testings we do not have classes going on. For the bb testing we have nothing going on at all that day. The school is closed. All cell phones are off, unless you need to have it on due to being on-call and then only on vibrate. The school phone is set to go directly to v-mail. All you hear are the screams of the victims...errrr I mean the kiai's of the students. ha.ha.ha.

 

[miguksaram]

a belt test is supposed to test the student on the curricula that they have been taught in class. If they have been taught correctly then there should be no problem on exam day. If the student fails then what does that say about the instructor? If they fail for any reason it is the instructors fault for not preparing them properly.
I would insist on being allowed to watch or I would demand a refund for all tuition paid since he started(unless it was in writing that the exam would be private and you signed something agreeing to it).

Would you pass the student how was just lazily going through the motions in his test, even though, up to that point he has never been that way?

 

[ETinCYQX]

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Would you pass the student how was just lazily going through the motions in his test, even though, up to that point he has never been that way?

If I may jump in, no I would fail a student who was just going through the motions and not putting effort in. That's about the only thing I'd fail a student for, not nerves. Hell I was so nervous I forgot two poomsae for my BB grading

 

[ATC]

Yes the test should be stressful, what test is not.

However what that said, parents, relatives, friends, and so on should all be allowed to view the persons achieving moment. This is something that one, the parent is paying for and two, is of great importance to the tester, and those that support, and are involved in their lives, and should be witnessed by all that support the them. To test for black belt is a special moment and to deny anyone to have loved ones there to witness and support that special moment is cruel at minimum.

If you are testing for black belt and can't focus because someone is watching, then you should not be testing for a black belt, simple as that. Part of what you should be getting evaluated on is your focus, and if simply having a parent or someone there compromises that focus, then you simply are not ready for a black belt. Frankly you should be past the need to look at mommy or daddy for approval by an age, let alone a belt level, if not then you are clearly to immature to be testing for black belt.

That just my .02 anyways.

 

[TKDinAK]

My instructor encourages people... parents, siblings, friends... etc... to come in and watch all the tests... GUP and BB.

He has a short wall separating the training and viewing areas. The GUP tests are a little more laid back than the BB, but there is an unspoken rule that spectators remain quiet and respectful during the tests. I have never seen a parent trying to instruct or interfere with their child's performance.

With the GUP tests, he has a number of BB's on hand to help out and be present for whatever is needed. All instructors and BB's are in dobaks. You can pass either high or low. The only way you won't pass is you've totally forgot the material (never seen this happen), or cannot get your break (seen this a couple of times with the youngsters).

For the BB tests, we have our Phoenix Group board on hand to administer the test. All board members are in suits. Much more formal and serious for these tests. You will not pass if you fail your verbal, perform patterns badly, or cannot execute your breaks. These tests are pass or fail.

My instructor is very outgoing and amiable in normal classes... and while he doesn't turn to stone during the tests, he does put on a whole different attitude.

The kids who test for a Jr BB ranking, test right along with the adults and have to perform all the same requirements. The standards are adjusted slightly for their age/size... but for the most part, it's the same test.

The BB tests run about 4-6 hours, depending on the amount of students testing. I wouldn't say the test appears to be overly grueling (I'm still a green belt and have only watched), but it's a very serious setting, and students know that they had better know the material and perform well or they will not pass.

Concerning testing children behind closed doors...

I would hope that those who do this, provide that information to the parents well in advance... such as the moment they sign up. I would not appreciate getting this info well into my child's training.

I don't like the thought of having my young child being put through a strenuous test without me being present. If I did get this info in advance of signing up for training, I'd likely go somewhere else. That said, I can see how a trust could be built up between Parent-Student-Instructor where this would be a satisfactory situation for some people. I just don't think I would start the journey knowing my young child was to be out of my sight for a very strenuous and physical MA test.

I do agree that this could open a very serious issue concerning liability... that in itself would give me serious pause in joining a club which uses this practice.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Our testing certainly isn't anything like the OP describes.

We're firmly in the "you're tested every day" camp. Generally speaking, students are invited to "test" because they're already performing at the next level. Occasionally, it's the students request. In these cases, they may or may not be allowed to test, and those who do test under these circumstances generally do not perform as well as those who have been invited. They may well be able to perform to a passing level, but it's more likely to be "barely" passable.

Our "tests" are more of a demonstration than anything else. Families and friends are welcome in class and at tests, and although we do expect them to avoid disrupting the class activities, I can't imagine someone being failed because they looked at their parents. We don't do kiddie black belts, but there are plenty of kids amoung the geup ranks.

Our last test there were 7 candidates, testing for anything from 9th geup to 2nd. The examiners are Dan holders. It took about an hour, with the candidates coming up 2 or 3 at a time. Tests include forms, sparring and breaking.

At our last black belt exam, there were two candidates, performing at the same time. The exam included performing 10 forms, free sparring against single and multiple opponents, knowledge exam and multiple station breaking (i.e., I did a 4-station break with a knee strike, rear elbow, side kick and head break, and a power break with 5 16x8x2" concrete pavers). It took about 90 minutes.

I don't personally see any sense in the 4 day long tests, and certainly not in the "Secret Conclave" type of tests.

Incidentially, nobody fails at our tests. If they're unable (for whatever reason) to perform any section at a passable level, their promotion is considered "pending", they are given additional training or assistance, and allowed to repeat that section. By the time students test, there's rarely any doubt that they know the material (I can only think of two cases in which I was not sure of their ability to perform the appropriate material before the test), but there have been several who were pending due to missed breaks. Generally younger students, but one of our adult students had a promotion delayed. Breaking wasn't something this student practiced (although we do have rebreakable boards available for anyone who wants to practice) and nervousness led to failure. Next class, without as much stress, the breaks were done easily.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Although my daughter is now 13, I have very strong feelings about activities for younger kids. NO ONE, and I mean No One, ever took her away from me into any secret place where I could not be present. Not doctors, orthodontists, religious leaders, or martial arts instructors. I was highly indignant toward those few who tried to do so and left their facilities in short order. It ticks me off even now, to think that anyone else believes they have the right to do anything to my child without my consent. How dare anyone try to preempt the rights of parents! (Can you see the bristling of my bear fur?)

Exactly my own reaction. Glad I'm not the only one. I'll say though, even at 15, I'd be very suspicious of any attempt to bar me from my daughter in any way.

Yup, that is where I'm at too. I took my daughter out of a YMCA swimming program and got my money back because thet changed the rules and would not allow parents in the pool area during class.

 

[TKDinAK]

Incidentially, nobody fails at our tests. If they're unable (for whatever reason) to perform any section at a passable level, their promotion is considered "pending", they are given additional training or assistance, and allowed to repeat that section. By the time students test, there's rarely any doubt that they know the material (I can only think of two cases in which I was not sure of their ability to perform the appropriate material before the test), but there have been several who were pending due to missed breaks. Generally younger students, but one of our adult students had a promotion delayed. Breaking wasn't something this student practiced (although we do have rebreakable boards available for anyone who wants to practice) and nervousness led to failure. Next class, without as much stress, the breaks were done easily.

My school holds two BB tests per year... six months apart.

We test our 1st GUP (Red Belt/Black Stripe) along with the black belts. There are normally a couple of 1st GUP testers who fail because the break is fairly difficult... five board jump side kick. If they fail, they can test again the following month during the next GUP test. They can keep testing at the monthly GUP tests until they get their break... then they must wait until the next BB test to try and qualify for their 1st DAN.

If a BB tester fails, at any DAN test, they must wait until the next BB test in six months. Plenty of time to train and correct.

 

[puunui]

For kiddie black belts? The tests should be appropriately scaled; reasonably challenging but not nearly the same as an adult test. An 8 or 9 year old simply can't do the same things as an adult, in many ways. As someone else already said -- a test that challenges an 8 year old would probably be pretty easy for an adult!

Actually, I think it is the other way around for most areas except perhaps breaking. Kids are more flexible, their natural stamina and wind is better, etc. At least how it is dividing up in taekwondo classes, where kids are kids and adults are parents of kids. With adults, once past 35 or so, the ability level generally goes down, while injuries, etc. tend to go up.

 

[ATC]

Actually, I think it is the other way around for most areas except perhaps breaking. Kids are more flexible, their natural stamina and wind is better, etc. At least how it is dividing up in taekwondo classes, where kids are kids and adults are parents of kids. With adults, once past 35 or so, the ability level generally goes down, while injuries, etc. tend to go up.

This I agree with. I find it funny that adult think they can do what the kids do. In everyone of my classes I can have the kids do so much more, but the adult tend to always handle less.

 

[puunui]

To me, some people make way to much out of a Dan or Poom test. 1st Dan or Poom is a low level practitioner, 1 step above a 1st geup, like 1st geup was 1 step above 2nd geup.

I think some people feel that if children are receiving black belts, then somehow their own black belt is diminished, that all the hard work that they feel they put it was for nothing, if kids can wear the same rank as they.

All Dan and Poom holders are born out of these situations, for better or worse.

Perfect situation = Excellent instructor + Excellent student

Not so perfect situation = Excellent instructor + not so excellent student

Bad situation = Uneducated ignorant instructor + any student

As a parent, one of our goals should be to raise our children to achieve their potential in all that they can. This helps create an excellent student, for any subject. A part of that goal is finding the right teachers, excellent teachers who can help our children reach their potential in a given field of study.

As a teacher, our only goal is not to be that uneducated ignorant instructor, for the uneducated ignorant instructor smothers their students with the wrong motive, preventing them from reaching their potential.

In my opinion, one of the ways of telling whether someone has the potential to become an excellent instructor is how open they are to understanding the culture of the martial art that they are studying and teaching. Do they take the time to understand the language, the customs, the culture? Do they eat the food of the country, and actually enjoy it? Can they use chopsticks? Have they visited the country? Do they hold some sort of bitter resentment towards koreans/okinawans/japanese? If an instructor is not open to the culture, then most likely they will end up substituting their own culture, which changes things, sometimes to the point where the art is no longer recognizable.

 

[puunui]

This I agree with. I find it funny that adult think they can do what the kids do. In everyone of my classes I can have the kids do so much more, but the adult tend to always handle less.

So why not give kids black belts.

 

[ballen0351]

Actually, I think it is the other way around for most areas except perhaps breaking. Kids are more flexible, their natural stamina and wind is better, etc. At least how it is dividing up in taekwondo classes, where kids are kids and adults are parents of kids. With adults, once past 35 or so, the ability level generally goes down, while injuries, etc. tend to go up.

I disagree there is no way an 8 year old can keep up with a normal healthy late 20 thru mid 40's adult. I coach my son in football 6 thru 8 year olds and im no gym freak or fitness god in fact other then my Karate classes 3 to 4 times a week I dont exercise at all anymore but I can out hustle and out work every kid on that team, all our coaches can. I think it depends on the age of the child. 15 -17 years olds then yes there are some that can out work me and alot of adults but in the age this thread was talking about if you cant out work an 8 year old you may need to seek medical help.

 

[puunui]

I disagree there is no way an 8 year old can keep up with a normal healthy late 20 thru mid 40's adult. I coach my son in football 6 thru 8 year olds and im no gym freak or fitness god in fact other then my Karate classes 3 to 4 times a week I dont exercise at all anymore but I can out hustle and out work every kid on that team, all our coaches can. I think it depends on the age of the child. 15 -17 years olds then yes there are some that can out work me and alot of adults but in the age this thread was talking about if you cant out work an 8 year old you may need to seek medical help.

How do your jump kicks and flexibility compare to those 8 year olds?

 

[ballen0351]

How do your jump kicks and flexibility compare to those 8 year olds?

So you only judge on Flexability? Kids are more flexable because they dont have the muscle tone yet thats why babies can suck on their toes that may be the ONLY area kids are better then adults but You said kids are better in MOST areas. There is no way an 8 year old kid has better stamina, strength, hand and eye coordination, mental capasity, balance, body control, then a normal healthy non-obese adult.

 

[puunui]

So you only judge on Flexability? Kids are more flexable because they dont have the muscle tone yet thats why babies can suck on their toes that may be the ONLY area kids are better then adults but You said kids are better in MOST areas. There is no way an 8 year old kid has better stamina, strength, hand and eye coordination, mental capasity, balance, body control, then a normal healthy non-obese adult.

That was just a start. I noticed you didn't make any comments on jump kicks. And you mentioned you do karate. I don't know how that compares to taekwondo competition training, which is where the differences become readily apparent.

 

[puunui]

There's a place, at least in Western society today, for a coming of age right or challenge, and one place (not the only one!) to find that can be a martial arts program. But that doesn't mean that the test has to be some sort of ultimate torture test/crucible combination of BUD/S and fraternity hazing; it just has to be an experience that's out of the norm, and that pushes you in a way you haven't been pushed before.

Taekwondo has that, we call them "tournaments". And they get harder as you advance in rank, because the people that you are competing against are also advancing. And when you reach the elite level, then people are training real hard for those, much harder than the average student trains for a belt test, including dan level tests. The hardest tournament in the US used to be team trials, where you fight the top five fighters in your weight division in a round robin format. Those kinds of tests let you know exactly where you stand on the totem pole, for the teacher as well as the student.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I disagree there is no way an 8 year old can keep up with a normal healthy late 20 thru mid 40's adult. I coach my son in football 6 thru 8 year olds and im no gym freak or fitness god in fact other then my Karate classes 3 to 4 times a week I dont exercise at all anymore but I can out hustle and out work every kid on that team, all our coaches can. I think it depends on the age of the child. 15 -17 years olds then yes there are some that can out work me and alot of adults but in the age this thread was talking about if you cant out work an 8 year old you may need to seek medical help.

Exactly. I coach 3 different junior sports and until at least 16 or 17 years of age kids are way behind in co ordination or fitness or anything else for that matter. As for jumping kicks, I won the jump front kick comp at my club and Im 38. Kids were miles behind the adults.