Should a Black Belt begin a new art as a White Belt?

[Tez3]

Personally, I think belts are an un-necessary artifice designed to give students short-term goals

There speaks someone who doesn't understand the crisis times of lack of confidence and the panic of thinking it's never going to come together. Please don't knock belts, it's great if you don't need one but a lot of us do. We need to be told yes you are doing it and yes we need short term goals. Just because it's easy for you doesn't make it so for the rest of us. I'm very proud of eraning my black belt, it took 9 long years and huge effort not just on my part please don't belittle it!
To get it I started again from white belt. I was 1st Kyu Wado Ryu and went across to Tang Soo Do

 

[Carol]

There speaks someone who doesn't understand the crisis times of lack of confidence and the panic of thinking it's never going to come together. Please don't knock belts, it's great if you don't need one but a lot of us do. We need to be told yes you are doing it and yes we need short term goals. Just because it's easy for you doesn't make it so for the rest of us. I'm very proud of eraning my black belt, it took 9 long years and huge effort not just on my part please don't belittle it!
To get it I started again from white belt. I was 1st Kyu Wado Ryu and went across to Tang Soo Do

What a great story! :asian:

Kudos to you for toughing it out and sticking to it all.

 

[exile]

I was 1st Kyu Wado Ryu and went across to Tang Soo Do

Hey Tez, I don't think I realized that you did KMAs—that's a real kick!!

 

[TraditionalTKD]

How in the world could you start practicing a new art and NOT be a white belt? A black belt in, say, Tae Kwon Do, has nothing to do with a black belt in aikido. You start in a new style, you start over again regardless of rank, end of discussion.
Not only that, but many times a black belt in one art's organization means nothing in another organization but same art. A black belt in Yoshokai aikido would not be recognized in a different aikido organization.

 

[crushing]

How in the world could you start practicing a new art and NOT be a white belt? A black belt in, say, Tae Kwon Do, has nothing to do with a black belt in aikido. You start in a new style, you start over again regardless of rank, end of discussion.
Not only that, but many times a black belt in one art's organization means nothing in another organization but same art. A black belt in Yoshokai aikido would not be recognized in a different aikido organization.

I agree with you on that, but that is not what is happening in this case. fnorfurfoot is NOT going into the new MA as a black belt, but will be allowed to wear the black belt because it has been earned. fnorfurfoot's rank in the new MA will be indicated by the color chevron on the sleeve.

 

[TraditionalTKD]

Shouldn't matter. I tested for 5th Dan in Tae Kwon Do last year. When I go to my aikido class, nothing on my dogi indicates this. They are aware of my rank, but it has no bearing to them. I wear a white dogi and color belt like everyone else.

 

[PictonMA]

I've been training in the martial arts for 25years now, every time I've tried a new art I've begun again as a white belt.

Just because I have Dan rank in my core art (Goju Ryu) it has no bearing on everything else I've chosen to train in other than to a) provide me with a base level of mental and physical fitness that most true beginners lack and b) create within me sometimes good and sometimes bad habbits that either help or hinder my learning a new art. My Dan rank in one art is irrelevant.

Also, I found this to be odd:

Having said that, a competent black belt in one style will have many of the skills and abilities of most arts down pat. A kick is a kick, a punch is a punch, after all, so it wouldn't make sense to start you off as a white belt.

Maybe I'm just crotchety but a kick is not a kick and a punch is not a punch between various arts. I have seen more people that were taught poorly or just plain old differently then were taught the same when comparing styles.

To use a bit of an anaology, to me it's like comparing fruit - obvisouly when comparing the apples (striking arts) to the oranges (locking / grappling arts) to the peaches (weapon arts) there are very stark difference and one would think that it is obvious that they are different enough to remain appart in terms of title and classification.

What gets me is that people seem to be more willing to blur the lines when comparing apples, me not so much so. Apples can be as different from each other as from other fruit - red delicious (Goju Ryu), golden delicious (Shotokan), spartan (Tae Kwon Do), empire (Kempo), macintish (Muay Thai) etc etc.

Just because you are a really tasy red delicous doesn't mean that you would be any good as a macintosh ;p

 

[Carol]

Shouldn't matter. I tested for 5th Dan in Tae Kwon Do last year. When I go to my aikido class, nothing on my dogi indicates this. They are aware of my rank, but it has no bearing to them. I wear a white dogi and color belt like everyone else.

But your Aikido sensei did not specifically tell you to wear your black belt to class, correct?

 

[Mark L]

IAfter a preliminary workout, one-on-one with the instructor, I was given the choice to wear my rank. I chose to start at white. My first test in the new style, 5-months in, was from white to green belt, but during that period of time I was able to attend both beginner and advanced classes and prove myself to the student population and therefore had thier respect.

My experience is virtually identical to this, though it followed a 15 year hiatus rather than a style switch. I think it is fairly easy to guage a practitioners skill level simply by watching them move, regardless of the belt color.

 

[morph4me]

I took a different art for a short time while I was still training in my main art. My instructor told me to wear my black belt, but I never felt comfortable wearing a black belt when I didn't know particulars of that art. I think that skill, or the lack of it, will show through no matter what color belt you wear. In my opinion, if I do start another art, I want to start as a white belt.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Key word here - begin.
If you are a beginner, you should act like one. And if we are starting up another style, then we are beginners at it.
If its the teachers of the class wish that you wear a black belt there, then wear one. Its his class.
If the choice were up to me personally, I'd wear a white belt. Its always been the belt Ive felt most comfortable wearing.

 

[avm247]

Your wanting to start at and wear a White Belt is a testament to your strong character.

Your TKD instructor's wish to recognize your experience (albeit in another art) is a testament to his/her strong character.

Respect the wishes of your instructor, if it doesn't work out, privately ask to speak with your instructor after class and express your concern. It seems to me that he, your instructor has already thought this through; trust his or her judgement.

 

[14 Kempo]

My experience is virtually identical to this, though it followed a 15 year hiatus rather than a style switch. I think it is fairly easy to guage a practitioners skill level simply by watching them move, regardless of the belt color.

I had an 11 year hiatus, so we were in the same boat. As far as the style switch, the new style was a breakoff of my old style, so the change was mainly of name.

Deal was, in my case, my instructor left it up to me and I made the choice to wear white. If my instructor had simply told me to wear my rank, I would have expressed my side but honored his decision.

 

[Nomad]

We've had folks start in our style after getting a black belt (usually some time in the past) in another style or art. Our instructor usually will have a look at them, and ask them to wear a mid-range belt (eg. green). This is because their skill level is obviously way above beginning white belts, but the student still has to learn our requirements for the various ranks, and more importantly, he or she has to earn the trust of the other seniors.

If they are good, they can move fairly rapidly through the ranks once they learn the katas and other requirements. Our instructor does the exact same thing for some of our students who progressed to a high rank before taking an extended break... when they come back, they are asked to wear the lower belt until they have sharpened up their skills again.

As a new white belt, it would be depressing to see someone wearing the same beginner belt doing things SO much better than you, and catching on quicker... they frequently won't realize that the other person has prior training unless told.

That said, if the art you're starting is radically different from the one you trained in before, you should try to start as a complete beginner... because you are (an example might be Shotokan karate to BJJ... a few principles might carry over, but almost none of the techniques are likely to overlap).

 

[Adept]

There speaks someone who doesn't understand the crisis times of lack of confidence and the panic of thinking it's never going to come together.

You didn't need the belt. People had these problems long before coloured belts were used to denote ranks, and still have them in styles that don't use belts at all.

IMaybe I'm just crotchety but a kick is not a kick and a punch is not a punch between various arts. I have seen more people that were taught poorly or just plain old differently then were taught the same when comparing styles.

Why concentrate on the differences? For the most part, I've found people who nit-pick differences in similar techniques are missing the point. It doesn't matter if your foot is pointing "here" or over "there", so long as the end result is the other person getting hurt.

It's a testament to just how flexible these things are that there are dozens of different ways to kick and punch, all of them being effective. A punch from a boxer is going to look very different to a punch from a karateka, or a muay thai fighter, or a TKD fighter. They'll look different, but they'll all be the same in their intent, they'll be similar in their execution, and they'll be nearly identical in their results.

It doesn't matter if you kick or punch exactly the same way as your new style does. So long as you kick or punch well.

Now, I know there are some people out there who, for whatever reason, want to learn how a particular style does something simply for the sake of learning it. In those cases, it is beneficial to forget everything you have previously learned. Myself, I am more interested in learning the best way for me to do things, and if that means I am throwing boxing punches and BJJ takedowns in a TKD class, then that is what will happen...

 

[green meanie]

I think a person should be humble enough to be willing to wear a white belt when starting to study something new...

...but also humble enough to respect their instructor's decision when told they should wear their black belt.

:asian:

 

[14 Kempo]

Sorry, maybe it's just me, and I don't mean to be disrespectful, but how many ways can there be to throw a front punch, or a front ball kick effectively? Anyone, please list them ... enlighten me.

 

[Jenna]

I agree with the thread author..... I have personally seen two martial artists I respect highly, one a 4th dan and one a senior brown belt, both start new arts as white belts.

It is a dose of humility, and shows a willingness to have a fresh start that we all could learn from.

Hey there this is very well put and unfortunately I think there are more than a few holding the rank of black belt and above who suffer from a complete lack of humility so it is nice to see when it does actually rear its head!

Good post

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Jenna]

I think a person should be humble enough to be willing to wear a white belt when starting to study something new...

...but also humble enough to respect their instructor's decision when told they should wear their black belt.

:asian:

Hey GM personally I think it is a complete folly for a novice practitioner of any art to wear a black belt whether of their own accord or at the behest of their instructor. Surely a BB signifies both technical competence and a degree of personal mastery.. either one of these on their own signify a BB only partially therefore wearing the belt as a novice to an art is plain wrong imnsvho..
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[green meanie]

Hey GM personally I think it is a complete folly for a novice practitioner of any art to wear a black belt whether of their own accord or at the behest of their instructor. Surely a BB signifies both technical competence and a degree of personal mastery.. either one of these on their own signify a BB only partially therefore wearing the belt as a novice to an art is plain wrong imnsvho..
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

I think it's a big mistake too. When I went to a Kenpo school wanting to study I was a brown belt in Jujutsu. When I was told to wear my brown belt I hated it. But I felt if I was gonna study there I had to respect the instructors decision and I still feel that way. But if I had it to do over again I would've found another school.

:asian: