Shaolin Kenpo

[satans.barber]

Hey,

a friend of mine has asked if I want to go along to a 'Shaolin Kenpo' school with him tommorrow, and I was just wondering what to expect? We're both used to EPAK/kickboxing, I guess it's nothing to do with EPAK whatsoever, will it be more like kung fu?

I just feel like I should get a heads up before I walk through the door, and MT is more reliable than Google!

Hope everyone's OK too

Ian.

 

[Michael Billings]

Depends on the teacher and his lineage. It could have some EPAK, but it is a safe guess that they will do forms like Sil Lum 6 or Tiger and Crane (Fu Hok). Bigger circles maybe, but they may have a version of Five Swords ... so how lost can you be?

Have fun and kick some, well ... air? Maybe each other.

-Michael

 

[KempoShaun]

It will also depend on wether it is GM Ralph Castro's "Shaolin KeNpo" or GM Fred Villari's (or an offshoot thereof) "Shaolin KeMpo". There are some differences in those styles as well :asian:

 

[satans.barber]

Hmm, could be a mixed bag then! I'll report back tommorrow evening when I get in

Thanks guys,

Ian.

 

[John Bishop]

Just ask what their lineage is.
If it goes back to Ralph Castro, it's part EPAK and part Kara-ho.
If it goes back to Fred Villari, it's part Kajukenbo, part Karazenpo Goshin Jitsu, and whatever else Villari added.

 

[Mike Att]

I believe this curriculm is Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kenpo. You will need Acrobat Reader to actually view the pictures and descriptions.

http://www.garrettministries.org/PDF.htm

 

[TheEdge883]

I believe this curriculm is Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kenpo. You will need Acrobat Reader to actually view the pictures and descriptions.

http://www.garrettministries.org/PDF.htm

Thanks for the website, I like to see other system's manuals. This looks a lot like a cross between EPAK and Tracy kenpo. Can anyone confirm that this is Castro's kenpo?

 

[satans.barber]

Well, I went down to the club as I planned and I had a really good time

It was sooooo nice not to be the teacher, and to be the student for once! I think I was almost forgetting what it feels like to just turn up, pay and have fun without worrying about accounting, hall rental, injuries, insurance, people's health, booking gradings etc.! I do enjoy teaching, but I enjoy learning more!

Anyway, the style didn't have anything remotely to do with EPAK as far as I could see, that was obvious straight away! As soon as we started my analytical EPAK brain was disecting the techniques I was being shown, deciding what would work and what wouldn't, spotting redundant motion and open targets etc. - I tried to clear my mind and take it as it came but I couldn't! I think this could be part of the whole cross training debate that I've so far avoided; I'm not sure I can ever now walk into another style and not try to lay EPAK templates if you will over the moves. I hope that makes sense, I can't think of another way to describe it!

There were many noticable differences but the biggest one was the absence of checks. As you all know, in EPAK the answer the question 'what's that hand doing?' is never, ever 'nothing!'. As we started to do some of the techniques, I found myself asking what I was meant to be doing with my other hand (feigning ignorance slightly, I stripped my rank for the evening to be polite so the guy didn't know exactly how much experience I did or didn't have) and the instructor answered 'nothing' or 'nothing yet' several times.

There were other things too such as taking sacrificial strikes. For example, as a defence against a right roundhouse club I was shown to step in with my right foot and lift my left arm up in the air, taking (essentially) a forearm strike to the ribcage and letting the stick strike my back. Then I was to bring my arm back down and underneath teh attackers arm and apply a classic figure-4 arm lock. The reasonong that was explained to me was that since I was closer to te pivot point of the strike, the arm has less power and the strike into the ribs wouldn't really hurt. I accept the logic but I'm not sure it's a good idea at all, ribs crack easily! Anyway, I couldn't think of any examples of this sort of sacrifice in EPAK, allowing yourself to take a strike just in order to apply your own technique.

There was a lot of arm-locks and throws as well, Jiu Jitsu sort of moves that were fun as I've not done too many before. I might go back another day since they were friendly, I also invited them all to an open seminar we're having, so we may have all made new friends too.

The full name that was given to the system was 'Shaolin Tsu Kempo'.

Ian.

 

[Michael Billings]

Thanks for the comparative review Ian.

-Michael

 

[Karazenpo]

Well, I went down to the club as I planned and I had a really good time

It was sooooo nice not to be the teacher, and to be the student for once! I think I was almost forgetting what it feels like to just turn up, pay and have fun without worrying about accounting, hall rental, injuries, insurance, people's health, booking gradings etc.! I do enjoy teaching, but I enjoy learning more!

Anyway, the style didn't have anything remotely to do with EPAK as far as I could see, that was obvious straight away! As soon as we started my analytical EPAK brain was disecting the techniques I was being shown, deciding what would work and what wouldn't, spotting redundant motion and open targets etc. - I tried to clear my mind and take it as it came but I couldn't! I think this could be part of the whole cross training debate that I've so far avoided; I'm not sure I can ever now walk into another style and not try to lay EPAK templates if you will over the moves. I hope that makes sense, I can't think of another way to describe it!

There were many noticable differences but the biggest one was the absence of checks. As you all know, in EPAK the answer the question 'what's that hand doing?' is never, ever 'nothing!'. As we started to do some of the techniques, I found myself asking what I was meant to be doing with my other hand (feigning ignorance slightly, I stripped my rank for the evening to be polite so the guy didn't know exactly how much experience I did or didn't have) and the instructor answered 'nothing' or 'nothing yet' several times.

There were other things too such as taking sacrificial strikes. For example, as a defence against a right roundhouse club I was shown to step in with my right foot and lift my left arm up in the air, taking (essentially) a forearm strike to the ribcage and letting the stick strike my back. Then I was to bring my arm back down and underneath teh attackers arm and apply a classic figure-4 arm lock. The reasonong that was explained to me was that since I was closer to te pivot point of the strike, the arm has less power and the strike into the ribs wouldn't really hurt. I accept the logic but I'm not sure it's a good idea at all, ribs crack easily! Anyway, I couldn't think of any examples of this sort of sacrifice in EPAK, allowing yourself to take a strike just in order to apply your own technique.

There was a lot of arm-locks and throws as well, Jiu Jitsu sort of moves that were fun as I've not done too many before. I might go back another day since they were friendly, I also invited them all to an open seminar we're having, so we may have all made new friends too.

The full name that was given to the system was 'Shaolin Tsu Kempo'.

Ian.

Hello Ian, there's a saying: "Sometimes, you have to take some to give some". We use a similiar 'side-club' technique and as a veteran police officer have found it very effective in real world application. One of my students also used it effectively in a documented police response call when he was assaulted (Ronnie Ortla). We lunge in as the attacker moves his club weilding limb back for the swing. You move in hard, like in football and essentially you are jamming him. You really don't take too bad of a hit to the rib area and here's why. The end of the arm (the fist) in an empty hand swing or the last two inches or so in a club attack generate the most power. For instance, if you could put a number on it for comparison example we say this. If the last two inches of the club is travelling at 120 mph then the hand area is at about 60 mph and the bicep area about 30 mph. Essentially you are stepping into the 'eye of the hurricane', calmest point in a storm and the calmest point in a circular attack. You may end up with a little tender spot a few hours later but that's about it. Now, against a right hand swing, as we immediately lunge in and jam we also simulatneously thrust a right forearm to the throat/jaw area and coil our left arm above the elbow locking his arm in place. In the ideal technique practiced in the dojo, the attacker remains standing and you have the option of multiple consecutive forearm blows, same with knees and ofcourse a leg hock or sweep type takedown and follow up. However, in the real world I have found as you lunge in at the appropriate time your momentum is ofcourse moving forward. The attacker's weight transfer is shifting to the rear prior to his swing. What happens is he is knocked over backwards and you usually will end up on top of him cushioned by his body. He takes what we call the 'double tap'. First is his backside hitting the ground, second your body landing on his front side. It may not be a 'pretty' demo technique but it is extremely effective and not difficult to get down even for a beginner. Try it, you'll like it! Professor Joe Shuras

PS: Ian, almost forgot. As far as the club hitting your back, this is true but it's more like a 'whiplash' effect from your sudden stopping of his limb. It will even sometimes pop you off the back of the head but with very little force. When you're 'pumping', you won't probably even realize it happened until later when you have a little tender spot back there.

 

[satans.barber]

Hello Ian, there's a saying: "Sometimes, you have to take some to give some". We use a similiar 'side-club' technique and as a veteran police officer have found it very effective in real world application. One of my students also used it effectively in a documented police response call when he was assaulted (Ronnie Ortla). We lunge in as the attacker moves his club weilding limb back for the swing. You move in hard, like in football and essentially you are jamming him. You really don't take too bad of a hit to the rib area and here's why. The end of the arm (the fist) in an empty hand swing or the last two inches or so in a club attack generate the most power. For instance, if you could put a number on it for comparison example we say this. If the last two inches of the club is travelling at 120 mph then the hand area is at about 60 mph and the bicep area about 30 mph. Essentially you are stepping into the 'eye of the hurricane', calmest point in a storm and the calmest point in a circular attack. You may end up with a little tender spot a few hours later but that's about it. Now, against a right hand swing, as we immediately lunge in and jam we also simulatneously thrust a right forearm to the throat/jaw area and coil our left arm above the elbow locking his arm in place. In the ideal technique practiced in the dojo, the attacker remains standing and you have the option of multiple consecutive forearm blows, same with knees and ofcourse a leg hock or sweep type takedown and follow up. However, in the real world I have found as you lunge in at the appropriate time your momentum is ofcourse moving forward. The attacker's weight transfer is shifting to the rear prior to his swing. What happens is he is knocked over backwards and you usually will end up on top of him cushioned by his body. He takes what we call the 'double tap'. First is his backside hitting the ground, second your body landing on his front side. It may not be a 'pretty' demo technique but it is extremely effective and not difficult to get down even for a beginner. Try it, you'll like it! Professor Joe Shuras

PS: Ian, almost forgot. As far as the club hitting your back, this is true but it's more like a 'whiplash' effect from your sudden stopping of his limb. It will even sometimes pop you off the back of the head but with very little force. When you're 'pumping', you won't probably even realize it happened until later when you have a little tender spot back there.

Yeah, I considered it more after I'd posted and with further consideration I decided it would probably work pretty well - as I said when I posted I was struggling not to apply EPAK ideals to what I was being shown, so initially is just seemed 'wrong'!

To be fair, the guys asked me to show them an EPAK technique for the same move, so of course I launched into Defying the Storm. They said to me after I showed them the block, 'what's to stop that stick from hitting you in the side of the head?', and to be fair, I've never worked that out either! So, touche...

I think in empty hand to club attacks there's always going to be a bit of give and take as you say, after all, the attacker does have the distinct advatage!

Another technique they showed me against a roundhouse club was to twirl in, grab their arm and turn your back into them, then carry their momentum into a one armed shoulder throw (Ippon Sionage? It's 13 years since I stopped Judo!). This looked really impressive when their Sensei showed it to me, but I guess it would take a lot of practice and impeccable timing. Another example of entering the 'eye of the storm' as you say though. Again if it went wrong though you've turned your back to a guy with a stick, if he gets it under your chin and pulls it into a choke then it's going to be lights out!

Interesting stuff...

Ian.

 

[Karazenpo]

Yeah, I considered it more after I'd posted and with further consideration I decided it would probably work pretty well - as I said when I posted I was struggling not to apply EPAK ideals to what I was being shown, so initially is just seemed 'wrong'!

To be fair, the guys asked me to show them an EPAK technique for the same move, so of course I launched into Defying the Storm. They said to me after I showed them the block, 'what's to stop that stick from hitting you in the side of the head?', and to be fair, I've never worked that out either! So, touche...

I think in empty hand to club attacks there's always going to be a bit of give and take as you say, after all, the attacker does have the distinct advatage!

Another technique they showed me against a roundhouse club was to twirl in, grab their arm and turn your back into them, then carry their momentum into a one armed shoulder throw (Ippon Sionage? It's 13 years since I stopped Judo!). This looked really impressive when their Sensei showed it to me, but I guess it would take a lot of practice and impeccable timing. Another example of entering the 'eye of the storm' as you say though. Again if it went wrong though you've turned your back to a guy with a stick, if he gets it under your chin and pulls it into a choke then it's going to be lights out!

Interesting stuff...

Ian.

Agreed, Ian. It's funny though, I wonder what their lineage is because I also have that 'twirl in' roundhouse club attack wrapping our right arm above the elbow. As our back goes into the attacker we simultaneously hit with a left driving elbow into a left hammer to the groin then an upward elbow which turns into a grab around the neck and then a dropping shoulder throw (dropping on the left knee) and follow up. Agreed, it does put you in a bad position for a choker so it's not one of my favorites for that reason. I'm from the Hawaiian/Shaolin Kempo lineage of Sonny Gascon and Walter Godin. Out here in New England I originally studied GoJu ryu in '73 but switched to Shaolin Kempo in 1974, however, it was then called Modern Chinese KeNpo and was the system directly taught to Fred Villari by Nick Cerio, Villari leaving Cerio in 1971. During this era I was under Craig Seavey who is now co-head of the Cerio organization. I also studied under Nick Cerio and George Pesare, all the same lineage. I'm curious because Gascon, Pesare and Cerio were all skilled in Judo also. You're right, very interesting!

 

[dianhsuhe]

Good info.!

The idea of cross training is good but I would pick something farther from my base art. (I know you might be attending just a class or two) In Kara-Ho Kempo we actually had a separate class for Aikido (Shih-Shin Toitsu) because there is soo much Aikido on Kara-Ho Grandmaster Kuoha recommended training in that to enhance our KI in techniques. It was great fun strapping on the white belt again and getting thrown around! It also helps ones movement, balance, and centering- qualitites that are VERY important in the advanced "sets" found in Kara-Ho.

We even had a Kara-Ho Kempo gentleman who is a 5th degree (VERY high in our style) in our white belt class. I really enjoyed the training and I would recommend soft-style Aikido to any Kempoists out there that want to try it out!

Take care everyone and have a great weekend!
Jamey

 

[kungfulee]

Cross training is a very good idea.