Shaolin Kenpo/Kempo

[marshallbd]

I was wondering if anyone could enlighten me about the difference between American Kenpo and shaolin Kenpo/Kempo under Ralph Casto.......I saw an article about him some time back and am very curious........any help would be appreciated....

 

[pknox]

I do know that Ralph Castro definitely teaches "Shaolin Kenpo", not "Shaolin Kempo". "Shaolin Kempo" is the name given to the style taught by Mr. Fred Villari -- who is basically known as the king of the McDojo (whether or not that moniker is well deserved is up to you to decide, but the reputation is definitely out there, and has been for some time).

I do know that Mr. Castro, and his daughter, June, have put out a few videotapes, and, at least in the past, had integrated some JKD concepts into their style. One thing I do know that both styles have in common is a link to Professor Chow, as both Ed Parker and Ralph Castro had studied directly under him. Btw, Villari claims an indirect Chow link as well, which, according to them, is :

Professor Chow --> Adriano Emperado (Kajunkenbo) --> Sonny Gascon --> George Pesare --> Nick Cerio --> Fred Villari

To confuse matters even further, some of the people who broke off of Villari a few years back started calling what they teach "Shaolin Kenpo", but it has no relationship to the system of the same name taught by Ralph Castro.

 

[Michael Billings]

Bigger circles in Chinese Kenpo, more techniques, less articulation of principles, generally lower stances, great power (generally), way cool weapons forms, etc. My 1st Black was in Chinese Kenpo before we moved under Mr. Parker directly. Loved them both, and had a great foundation. But I have found a home and a systematic approach and logical interpretation of the study of motion, primarily as it applies to fighting.

Lots and lots more in terms of philosophy, spirituality, stylistic differences, but I think you were asking more for the physical differences. Good resources are Dennis Conatser, Ricardo Casitillo, Seig, myself. Ricardo is still doing a Tracy (more Chinese) system, whereas Mr. Conatser, myself and Seig moved over to American Kenpo, specifically Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate.

Hope this helps a little. It is a short answer to a question that has been around and around. You may want to search past threads in the Kenpo - General Forum. There are extensive discussions.

-Michael

 

[marshallbd]

Originally posted by pknox
I do know that Ralph Castro definitely teaches "Shaolin Kenpo", not "Shaolin Kempo". "Shaolin Kempo" is the name given to the style taught by Mr. Fred Villari -- who is basically known as the king of the McDojo (whether or not that moniker is well deserved is up to you to decide, but the reputation is definitely out there, and has been for some time).

I do know that Mr. Castro, and his daughter, June, have put out a few videotapes, and, at least in the past, had integrated some JKD concepts into their style. One thing I do know that both styles have in common is a link to Professor Chow, as both Ed Parker and Ralph Castro had studied directly under him. Btw, Villari claims an indirect Chow link as well, which, according to them, is :

Professor Chow --> Adriano Emperado (Kajunkenbo) --> Sonny Gascon --> George Pesare --> Nick Cerio --> Fred Villari

To confuse matters even further, some of the people who broke off of Villari a few years back started calling what they teach "Shaolin Kenpo", but it has no relationship to the system of the same name taught by Ralph Castro.

Thank you for the informative response.....I sure am getting an education here on this forum......Again thanks to all who answer my sometimes monotonous(sp?) questions.......I am seeking knowledge......

 

[marshallbd]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Bigger circles in Chinese Kenpo, more techniques, less articulation of principles, generally lower stances, great power (generally), way cool weapons forms, etc. My 1st Black was in Chinese Kenpo before we moved under Mr. Parker directly. Loved them both, and had a great foundation. But I have found a home and a systematic approach and logical interpretation of the study of motion, primarily as it applies to fighting.

Lots and lots more in terms of philosophy, spirituality, stylistic differences, but I think you were asking more for the physical differences. Good resources are Dennis Conatser, Ricardo Casitillo, Seig, myself. Ricardo is still doing a Tracy (more Chinese) system, whereas Mr. Conatser, myself and Seig moved over to American Kenpo, specifically Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate.

Hope this helps a little. It is a short answer to a question that has been around and around. You may want to search past threads in the Kenpo - General Forum. There are extensive discussions.

-Michael

It helps greatly.....I am going through all the discussions thread by thread.....I am amazed at how many knowledgeable people are here.......I truly love this forum and plan to be a part of it through my journey in Kenpo...

 

[KEMPO DAVE]

From the above post one might believe that that all Shaolin Kempo is from Villari. That is not a true statement. There are other Shaolin Kempo studios that go back to Cerio, without going through Villari.

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by KEMPO DAVE
From the above post one might believe that that all Shaolin Kempo is from Villari. That is not a true statement. There are other Shaolin Kempo studios that go back to Cerio, without going through Villari.

Absolutely. I never said as such. However, the majority of studios with the "Shaolin Kempo" name are either Villari schools, or were at one time associated with the man.

Different point, but I wonder where the "Karazenpo" schools fit in -- do they come from Pesare, or are they one of the Cerio-based ones you are speaking about?

 

[Zoran]

This is a good link to get a general overview of some Kenpo/Kempo styles/systems

 

[John Bishop]

Simple Lineage


Adriano D. Emperado (created Kajukenbo)
|
Victor Sonny Gascon (created Karazempo Goshin Jutsu)
|
George Pesare (Karazempo Goshin Jutsu)
|
Nick Cerio (Cerio's Kenpo)
|
Fred Villari (Shaolin Kempo)

 

[CoolKempoDude]

Fred Villari didn't learn DIRECTLY from prof chow ??????

 

[John Bishop]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
Fred Villari didn't learn DIRECTLY from prof chow ??????

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by John Bishop
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

you didn't answer my question.

he said he learned from chow.

you pointed him to nick cerio

my question requires a simple YES or NO answer. I don't think it is hard for anybody to answer

 

[pknox]

No. Villari did not learn directly from Chow.

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
he said he learned from chow.

Who said that? Villari himself? In my post I talked of an indirect link, but I had no idea anyone was claiming a direct one -- if Villari is now saying that, that is definitely news to me.

 

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by pknox
Who said that? Villari himself? In my post I talked of an indirect link, but I had no idea anyone was claiming a direct one -- if Villari is now saying that, that is definitely news to me.

His web site states this

http://www.villari.com/fvbio.htm

During this period he and Nick Cerio corresponded and trained with Professor William K.S. Chow. Villari's approach to Kempo was to maintain the style as he learned it through Chow

 

[pknox]

Wow. I trained in the Villari system back in the early 90's, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't making that claim then. He had always talked about how he had trained under Cerio, but had never mentioned a direct link to Chow, especially as Professor Chow basically stopped taking students after a certain point in his life. I find that very surprising. However, given what I've seen Villari's organization do, I would not be surprised if that info mysteriously "appeared" after Nick Cerio's passing.

The real sad shame of it all is that the Villari system is actually a pretty good one; it deals with different ranges pretty well, and I was exposed to rudiments of things like chi kung and chin na very early in my training - something I couldn't get elsewhere at the time. In addition, we did a fair amount of ground grappling, and that was before everyone else was doing it, so I considered that pretty unique back then. The system can really be great if you have a good instructor, which I was fortunate to have. Unfortunately, Mr. Villari's ethics leave a bit to be desired, and instructors are hard to retain.

 

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by pknox
Wow. I trained in the Villari system back in the early 90's, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't making that claim then. He had always talked about how he had trained under Cerio, but had never mentioned a direct link to Chow, especially as Professor Chow basically stopped taking students after a certain point in his life. I find that very surprising. However, given what I've seen Villari's organization do, I would not be surprised if that info mysteriously "appeared" after Nick Cerio's passing.

The real sad shame of it all is that the Villari system is actually a pretty good one; it deals with different ranges pretty well, and I was exposed to rudiments of things like chi kung and chin na very early in my training - something I couldn't get elsewhere at the time. In addition, we did a fair amount of ground grappling, and that was before everyone else was doing it, so I considered that pretty unique back then. The system can really be great if you have a good instructor, which I was fortunate to have. Unfortunately, Mr. Villari's ethics leave a bit to be desired, and instructors are hard to retain.

i was a little bit suprised when somebody here said he didn't learn directly from chow but his web site states OPPOSITE

i am NOT confused BUT people make me CONFUSED

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
i was a little bit suprised when somebody here said he didn't learn directly from chow but his web site states OPPOSITE

i am NOT confused BUT people make me CONFUSED

I wouldn't spend a great deal of energy on it...basically every other source that is been presented here, and that I have seen, states that Villari was a student of Cerio, and makes no mention of a direct link with Chow. I have read interviews with Nick Cerio where he states that he corresponded with Chow. Is it possible that Villari's correspondence with Chow was actually through learning what Cerio had been taught? I'm not sure. I do know that when training in the system, we were made aware of Professor Chow, and the fact that he helped train Mr. Emperado; as Villari considers his style at least partially Kajukenbo-based (or, to clarify, I should say that he was stating that back in 1994), we were told that Professor Chow should be respected, as he was a teacher that affected our style's development. None of my teachers, or Grandmaster Villari, ever mentioned a direct link during the time I studied in the system -- as Professor Chow was then and still is now considered a well respected martial artist, I don't know why that never would have been mentioned. We were also made aware of the link with Cerio, but Villari always stated that his art had changed quite a bit from what he had learned from those who had taught him, and the art was now very different from Kajukenbo and various forms of American Kenpo, moving more towards the realm of a "kung fu" style of attack and movement. Whether or not the direct link with Chow was true at the time, who knows; I am only wondering why it has not been mentioned until relatively recently.

Unfortunately, I think we may be drifting off topic, as the original question had to do with Mr. Castro.

 

[John Bishop]

When a renowed instructor dies, the number of students he taught usually increases by 4 times.
Too bad he's no longer around to point out the liars.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Yeah, no kidding. Look at all of Mr. Parker's Personal, private, Best Beloved students who have miraculously appeared since 1990...musta been a heckuva big house in the 80s, and he must've been bringing them through in shifts...

Reminds me of Spike, saying, "You were at the Crucifixion? If all the vampires who said they were at the crucifixion were actually there, it would've been like Woodstock."