Shaolin-Do Curriculum?

[Xue Sheng]

so why not learn the taiji-appropriate stances thru training taiji? Why can that information not be part of the regular taiji training, instead of needing to learn other stances (that you recognize as not being the same) thru training the rest of the curriculum? It's inconsistent and can develop habits that are bad for taiji and need to be un-learned in order to progress in taiji. This is what we keep saying, that each system has its own foundation and fundamentals on which it is designed to function, and learning a different foundation and then doing taiji, it just doesn't make sense to approach it that way. Would you train Wing Chun as a prep for taiji? Wing Chun's stance is very different, it's an extreme example, but it would be a waste to go that route if taiji was your real goal. Same with SD.

I have seen this with two guys who were trying to learn from my Yang sifu, they both were trying real hard but they could not get the proper stance. One was from uechi ryu and he did finally relax but the stance was still difficult for him. The other was form TKD and Karate and his was always stiff in all movement and he never did get the stance or the movement. He was really trying buy I think he got frustrated and stop coming to class

 

[Blaze Dragon]

I have seen this with two guys who were trying to learn from my Yang sifu, they both were trying real hard but they could not get the proper stance. One was from uechi ryu and he did finally relax but the stance was still difficult for him. The other was form TKD and Karate and his was always stiff in all movement and he never did get the stance or the movement. He was really trying buy I think he got frustrated and stop coming to class

What are your thoughts on something like that? I mean if in that case he is learning from a guy who has lineage and is yang style for sure, however is not able to do the stances correctly. Is he still doing taiji?

 

[Xue Sheng]

What are your thoughts on something like that? I mean if in that case he is learning from a guy who has lineage and is yang style for sure, however is not able to do the stances correctly. Is he still doing taiji?

My sifu can only show him what the stance is supposed to look like and how to move, he has to practice on his own to get it and it takes a lot of practice. The uechi ryu guy was getting it but it took a long time, and although he was a bit stiff he was a great person to do push hands with. But he had to stop. His wife gave him an ultimatum he could either do one MA and keep living at home or do two and get and apartment, He chose uechi ryu and staying home. The other guy stopped going to class but he did not work at it as long as the gentleman form uechi ryu.

Something else to take into account with an older traditional sifu form China. He will help you if he sees you working at it but if you’re not… he will not do much for you. The man from Uechi Ryu worked very hard at it and you could tell, the gentleman from TKD/Karate, although a real nice guy, did not seem to change from week to week and I did not think he was practicing much outside of class and if I think that I am pretty sure my sifu knows that and if you do not put in the effort he will not put in the effort either

 

[Flying Crane]

What are your thoughts on something like that? I mean if in that case he is learning from a guy who has lineage and is yang style for sure, however is not able to do the stances correctly. Is he still doing taiji?

I'd say he is TRYING to do taiji but is probably not doing it well and will have a difficult time of it. What works well for Uechi, and the approach that Uechi takes to training, doesn't work well for taiji. As Xue said, seems he made some progress, but it was more difficult, takes more time, is more frustrating. And ultimately, until and unless those fundamentals are finally truly corrected for the taiji, it will never be very good, no matter how much he works at it.

 

[Jin Gang]

As I saw it, the SD basic material is not considered a prerequisite of the internal training. In fact, some schools have an internal only program, their students have the option of doing only the internal arts and nothing else. For me, learning the taijiquan 24 posture form began simultaneously with the external curriculum, one wasn't prerequisite to the other. I still think to properly learn any of these arts one would need to go outside of SD.
Taijiquan is definately a separate art from bagua and xingyi. But bagua and xingyi do have a history of being taught together, though of course each one is a complete art in itself. I read that Dong Hai Chuan would only teach baguazhang to people who were already proficient in another martial art. Yin Fu was an expert in longfist, which flavored his bagua, and Cheng Tinghua was a Shuai Jiao expert, which equally flavored his. Jiang Rongqiao's main teacher, Zhang Zhaodong was an expert in both xingyiquan and Cheng style baguazhang, and his art blended the two together. So it's not as if those those two arts haven't frequently fit together and been taught together. And many traditional Chinese teachers know and teach taijiquan at the same time as their external style. It isn't impossible to study and practice more than one style, if it is done properly. Not that this is an excuse for Shaolin-Do, the criticisms of it not teaching proper fundamentals are correct all around. But it is a mischaracterization to say that they believe their lowerbelt curriculum is a prerequisite for the internal arts, at least the CSC faction doesn't. They just try to do too many things at once, and don't have the foundation to properly teach most of it.

The point about seminars is exactly correct. You can't really learn something in only 8 hours, certainly not a form which requires an entirely different framework and collection of techniques from what you have been practicing regularly. And you will be hard pressed to find someone in the system who is proficient enough with one of those seminar forms to get much instruction after the seminar is over (not to mention the fact that even during the seminar, it probably wasn't taught properly, as Sin The and his students most likely never received actual instruction in those styles). Another reason I left the system. In the beginning, I was excited to attend every seminar and learn every form I could. By the end, I was jaded with the whole thing, and the unrelated and irrelevant forms that seemed to pop up every year. I was never impressed with Sin The, he just didn't inspire me. I was learning this stuff alongside my teacher, and he was relying on me to remember the form so we could practice when we got back home. How was I ever going to improve, if I was the most knowledgeable one about the form, and I barely knew it! You do get a video of Sin The performing the form...but he isn't exactly the best example in most cases. When a seminar is put on by one of the other masters, there isn't a video to go with it. So it gets really bad. Instructors who learn a form in one or two days are expected to teach it to their students, and this is how much of the material in the upper black belt levels is taught. You spend four classes learning something, maybe once every three years. Then you test over it, and they ask you to demonstrate it at some festival or on the China trip. I found it all to be pointless.

 

[clfsean]

As I saw it, the SD basic material is not considered a prerequisite of the internal training. In fact, some schools have an internal only program, their students have the option of doing only the internal arts and nothing else. For me, learning the taijiquan 24 posture form began simultaneously with the external curriculum, one wasn't prerequisite to the other.

But that's the problem it is the way they set it up... at least until recently (10-15 years). You didn't learn any internal unless it was a "seminar" class or you reached 1st black. The CSC "faction" & I'm not even sure of the Western CSC, but the Ga CSC set up an internal program only around '94-ish or so. I know the Ky faction frowned on it for a while until they started doing it as well. Like I said though, until then... you didn't get any of their versions of the Big 3 internal until you got to first black.

I still think to properly learn any of these arts one would need to go outside of SD.

Correctamundo!

Taijiquan is definately a separate art from bagua and xingyi. But bagua and xingyi do have a history of being taught together, though of course each one is a complete art in itself. I read that Dong Hai Chuan would only teach baguazhang to people who were already proficient in another martial art. Yin Fu was an expert in longfist, which flavored his bagua, and Cheng Tinghua was a Shuai Jiao expert, which equally flavored his. Jiang Rongqiao's main teacher, Zhang Zhaodong was an expert in both xingyiquan and Cheng style baguazhang, and his art blended the two together. So it's not as if those those two arts haven't frequently fit together and been taught together.

Truth but at least that I've heard, it was never said "it must done in this order (x,y,z) to be complete..." or the like.

And many traditional Chinese teachers know and teach taijiquan at the same time as their external style. It isn't impossible to study and practice more than one style, if it is done properly.

True. My sifu is running us through PRC 24 at the end of every class as a cool down. Not as "taiji" but something to let us lower the jets as it were. Lama Pai (as well a Pak Hok Pai) has its own internal division of training. We both share a form, Min Loi Kuen (Needle in Cotton), but I believe there are differences between them more along the lines of "school" versus "technique". Plus Lama Pai I know has independent hei gung (qigong) training.

Not that this is an excuse for Shaolin-Do, the criticisms of it not teaching proper fundamentals are correct all around. But it is a mischaracterization to say that they believe their lowerbelt curriculum is a prerequisite for the internal arts, at least the CSC faction doesn't. They just try to do too many things at once, and don't have the foundation to properly teach most of it.

Like I mentioned above... this more recent than not.

The point about seminars is exactly correct. You can't really learn something in only 8 hours, certainly not a form which requires an entirely different framework and collection of techniques from what you have been practicing regularly. And you will be hard pressed to find someone in the system who is proficient enough with one of those seminar forms to get much instruction after the seminar is over (not to mention the fact that even during the seminar, it probably wasn't taught properly, as Sin The and his students most likely never received actual instruction in those styles). Another reason I left the system. In the beginning, I was excited to attend every seminar and learn every form I could. By the end, I was jaded with the whole thing, and the unrelated and irrelevant forms that seemed to pop up every year. I was never impressed with Sin The, he just didn't inspire me. I was learning this stuff alongside my teacher, and he was relying on me to remember the form so we could practice when we got back home. How was I ever going to improve, if I was the most knowledgeable one about the form, and I barely knew it! You do get a video of Sin The performing the form...but he isn't exactly the best example in most cases. When a seminar is put on by one of the other masters, there isn't a video to go with it. So it gets really bad. Instructors who learn a form in one or two days are expected to teach it to their students, and this is how much of the material in the upper black belt levels is taught. You spend four classes learning something, maybe once every three years. Then you test over it, and they ask you to demonstrate it at some festival or on the China trip. I found it all to be pointless.

+1 for you on that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Taijiquan is definately a separate art from bagua and xingyi. But bagua and xingyi do have a history of being taught together, though of course each one is a complete art in itself.

This started after 1900, prior to that they were separate and there are many Bagua people a well as may Xingyi people that see no reason for them to be trained together. However you are right, they are trained together rather frequently these days

I read that Dong Hai Chuan would only teach baguazhang to people who were already proficient in another martial art. Yin Fu was an expert in longfist, which flavored his bagua, and Cheng Tinghua was a Shuai Jiao expert, which equally flavored his. Jiang Rongqiao's main teacher, Zhang Zhaodong was an expert in both xingyiquan and Cheng style baguazhang, and his art blended the two together.

True

And many traditional Chinese teachers know and teach taijiquan at the same time as their external style. It isn't impossible to study and practice more than one style, if it is done properly.

My Yang Sifu would not agree as it applies to Taijiquan and I am not sure I do any longer either, but as little as 6 months ago I would have

Speaking as one who has done this, yes and no; It takes a rather strong minded person to do this but then it depends on the arts. I trained and love Xingyiquan and I trained and enjoyed Baguazhang and I train and enjoy and get frustrated by Taijiquan and even though I do feel I gained an awful lot of understanding of Taijiquan by training Xingyi, Bagua and even Sanda if I truly want to “know” and “understand” taiji as a martial art I cannot train Bagua and Xingyi. It will take longer to be a proficient fighter but it will be taiji

The point about seminars is exactly correct. You can't really learn something in only 8 hours, certainly not a form which requires an entirely different framework and collection of techniques from what you have been practicing regularly.

Yup I am in full agreement with you there. The only time a seminar has been of any use to me was if I already knew a lot about the topic before I got there.

True. My sifu is running us through PRC 24 at the end of every class as a cool down. Not as "taiji" but something to let us lower the jets as it were. Lama Pai (as well a Pak Hok Pai) has

My Taiji sifu is not even sure that 24 form, as taught, is taiji at all. He has seen some do 24 forms rather well and said they were good, but the majority he feels are pretty awful. He does not know or teach 24 form because it is not part of Yang style. And for the record it did not even come from a person that was highly proficient at Taiji. It mostly came from a guy that was highly proficient at Xingyi that trained some Taiji. But with that said I like the form and I do train it…however mine looks a lot like a mini-traditional Yang form because All of the postures are rather traditional and not the simplified version I was originally shown

 

[Flying Crane]

But that's the problem it is the way they set it up... at least until recently (10-15 years). You didn't learn any internal unless it was a "seminar" class or you reached 1st black. The CSC "faction" & I'm not even sure of the Western CSC, but the Ga CSC set up an internal program only around '94-ish or so. I know the Ky faction frowned on it for a while until they started doing it as well. Like I said though, until then... you didn't get any of their versions of the Big 3 internal until you got to first black.

Until you guys brought up the factions recently in these discussions, I was completely unaware of them. I was in college in the very early 1990s when I met my teacher, his wife was on the faculty and he would come onto campus and just practice by himself in the raquetball courts. I stumbled onto him one day and he agreed to teach me. It was very informal, but the trend to teach a whole lot very quickly, yeah that was accurate in my case. In one semester he taught me most of the curriculum thru brown belt. He never ranked me, but that's how much he taught me, along with a "tai chi" set. At the time I was vaguely familiar with the notion that there are different schools of taiji, and I asked him which this was. He just said it is Shaolin Tai Chi. I didn't know any better, so I accepted it and just assumed that there is a school of taiji that came out of Shaolin Temple or something. I didn't know enough to press the issue any further than that.

 

[clfsean]

Until you guys brought up the factions recently in these discussions, I was completely unaware of them. I was in college in the very early 1990s when I met my teacher, his wife was on the faculty and he would come onto campus and just practice by himself in the raquetball courts. I stumbled onto him one day and he agreed to teach me. It was very informal, but the trend to teach a whole lot very quickly, yeah that was accurate in my case. In one semester he taught me most of the curriculum thru brown belt. He never ranked me, but that's how much he taught me, along with a "tai chi" set. At the time I was vaguely familiar with the notion that there are different schools of taiji, and I asked him which this was. He just said it is Shaolin Tai Chi. I didn't know any better, so I accepted it and just assumed that there is a school of taiji that came out of Shaolin Temple or something. I didn't know enough to press the issue any further than that.

Well let's face it... in the early 90's the world was a much bigger place still. The interwebz was still very new. AOL & COMPUSERV were the big one stop services. Andressen hadn't built Netscape yet. blah blah blah

So information was still not as easily accessible as now. It was more so then than it had been 10 year before that but still. We were still very fragmented in terms of info sharing.

Not a big shocker there. Nowadays, if you don't check something out, you get what you get for not.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well let's face it... in the early 90's the world was a much bigger place still. The interwebz was still very new. AOL & COMPUSERV were the big one stop services. Andressen hadn't built Netscape yet. blah blah blah

So information was still not as easily accessible as now. It was more so then than it had been 10 year before that but still. We were still very fragmented in terms of info sharing.

Not a big shocker there. Nowadays, if you don't check something out, you get what you get for not.

ayup!!