Shadow Boxing vs Kata fallacy argument.

[Acronym]

Jumping rope is a useful way to train for boxing. But, you don't jump rope in the ring. You don't box in the same stance that you use to jump rope. You could train jumping rope exclusively at your boxing gym. You could even enter jump rope competitions. Those competitions take a lot of skill to win. What you would find is that jumping rope exclusively is not very good training for a boxing match. However true that may be, jumping rope will always have a place in boxing training. There is a part that jumping rope teaches you, and ways it conditions you... that when used in context with the rest of your boxing training method, is very effective.

Unfortunately, too many TMA schools got stuck on the jump roping (kata) part... and exclusively train that. Taken out of context, doing kata exclusively will make you no better of a fighter than jumping rope exclusively will. My point in bringing up the Shu-Ha-Ri method was to show that kata was literally the beginning tip of the ice burg. It is a part of a greater method and was never meant to be an exclusive form of training. TMA schools did it to themselves.

If you want to train in a school that does kata, make sure that they understand what kata is. If kata is used to define what you can and cannot do in the art... if kata is all that they study... it might not be the place to learn to be a fighter. It would be the same as going to a boxing gym, to learn to box... where all they did was jump rope. Even if they have tons of trophies for jump roping competitions.

If you find a school that understands kata, and uses kata in the proper place, along with the rest of the training method... they can make you into a great fighter, even using kata to do it.

At the end of the day, if kata is not your thing... train a different way. Just because some schools don't understand it and just because you don't understand it... does not mean that other people also don't understand it. There are people and schools out there that understand it, and use it very effectively.

Jumping rope is not boxing.

 

[Acronym]

Sad thing is that Katas were most likely instructions for beginners, yet advance practitioners still train them as the main part of their system. Hence the lack of realism in attack and defense, because it's so basic and never meant for higher levels

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sad thing is that Katas were most likely instructions for beginners, yet advance practitioners still train them as the main part of their system. Hence the lack of realism in attack and defense, because it's so basic and never meant for higher levels

I don't know about that. The one thing that doesn't come to mind when I think of CMA forms is "so basic and never meant for higher levels." I think the only reason anyone can pull off a technique from a form or a kata is because they are an advance practitioner.

If it was "so basic" then eveyone would be able to pull off the techniques in the forms or kata, and that's not the case. Many of those who are able to pull off the techniques in a fight are also the ones who think highly of kata and the forms which is why they still practice them.

When you think of kata and CMA forms then you have to separate those who study martial arts with the goal of being able to apply techniques and those who just want to be able to do the form and really don't care if they can use it or not. These are 2 different practitioners.

 

[punisher73]

Not they don't since I don't change stances depending on whether I shadow box or spar in boxing, but do so in Karate, TaeKwondo, etc. Hence why they cannot be equivalent.

Your post makes no sense, I stated that they are not exactly the same thing although all martial arts use BOTH methods.

Also, most good boxers I know change stances when shadow boxing and when sparring. I think you need to understand the term "stance" in how it is in application. Boxing doesn't call their transitions by different names like in karate styles, but they are doing the same thing. Look at high/low combos, look at the simple combo of a jab/cross, but use a stance change as used in karate terms.

Just because you may label something different doesn't negate the fact that it isn't used.

 

[punisher73]

Sad thing is that Katas were most likely instructions for beginners, yet advance practitioners still train them as the main part of their system. Hence the lack of realism in attack and defense, because it's so basic and never meant for higher levels

Sad part is, you don't understand the proper training and usage of kata and are judging it from a limited perspective.

BUT, yes, there are SOME katas that were specifically created for beginners to learn basic moves. In traditional okinawan styles you don't have this though, only the japanese ones.

 

[Graywalker]

Yeah but imaginary opponent was never brought up as an argument against.

I added that from memory.

Well, probably because it wasn't necessary to bring it up, as it is one of the bases of both methods.

The difference is, one uses pre set techniques, the other uses spur of the moment strikes. But both methods provide knowledge of an attack, before countering.

 

[Graywalker]

Reading through the comments, I am not sure I even know what shadow boxing really is anymore.

Kata, is a sequence of techniques or strikes being practiced, using stance changes. Imagining an opponent, is one of the basic tools used.

But if you are shadow boxing, and not imagining an opponent, that's cool. It seems that a person is practicing strikes in combinations and that is about it, although valuable it is pretty common too every fighting art.

And in the end no its not Kata in my opinion. Its more like a method added to your training, to go over various strikes, using various attacks, like anything else you do for improving your abilities.

No, I wouldn't call shadow boxing kata, just like I wouldn't call kicks, taken from kata and then practicing various kicking combo's kata.

I guess I would call that shadow kicking.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sad thing is that Katas were most likely instructions for beginners, yet advance practitioners still train them as the main part of their system.

For the long fist system, From training has 3 levels. It's easy to see the difference among 3 different levels of training.

You want to grow tall. You don't want to grow fat.

Beginner level:

Intermediate level:

Advance level:

 

[Buka]

The reason I don’t picture people when I shadow box, do bag work or anything else is because striking people is different than striking anything else.

Strikes are thrown differently in the air, on a bag, on focus mitts, makawara etc

The nuances are all different.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The issue of shadow "boxing" is you may forget to use your kick to set up your punch. Also since leg is longer than the arm, to use your kick to keep your opponent to be outside of your kicking range is not trained in shadow boxing.

If you learn the integration of kick, punch, lock, and throw, suddenly you forget all about kick, lock, and throw, you just work on punch. It's like a MMA guy who fights in a boxing tournament. It makes no sense to me.

1st line defense - kick.
2nd line defense - punch.
3rd line defense - clinch.

 

[Flying Crane]

Reading through the comments, I am not sure I even know what shadow boxing really is anymore.

Kata, is a sequence of techniques or strikes being practiced, using stance changes. Imagining an opponent, is one of the basic tools used.

But if you are shadow boxing, and not imagining an opponent, that's cool. It seems that a person is practicing strikes in combinations and that is about it, although valuable it is pretty common too every fighting art.

And in the end no its not Kata in my opinion. Its more like a method added to your training, to go over various strikes, using various attacks, like anything else you do for improving your abilities.

No, I wouldn't call shadow boxing kata, just like I wouldn't call kicks, taken from kata and then practicing various kicking combo's kata.

I guess I would call that shadow kicking.

Interesting thoughts and it made me think about my own training. I’ve never considered myself to be a “shadow boxer”, I guess because my image of it is within the boxing context and I’ve never been a boxer.

But I do practice punches in combination, within the principles and methodology of my system. My system places high value on the ability to change direction and type of punch, quickly and spontaneously. I routinely string together series of three to 7 different punches that I will do over and over. Which punches, and in what order, is my own choice. It can change with every session.

So I guess I do shadow box. And what I do is definitely not one of our forms.

 

[JowGaWolf]

For the long fist system, From training has 3 levels. It's easy to see the difference among 3 different levels of training.

You want to grow tall. You don't want to grow fat.

Beginner level:

Intermediate level:

Advance level:

You beat me to it. I was going to do the same thing. Basic in CMA is closer to foundation building and not Basic as in easy. Beginner's learn it because it builds the foundation that the advance techniques will stand on. Advance user still practice the basics because they understand that it's the foundation. It's no different in what I'm doing with my shadow boxing videos I've been posting. Start with the basics, get good with the basics, and use the basics to build a foundation on which more advance techniques will stand on.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The issue of shadow "boxing" is you may forget to use your kick to set up your punch. Also since leg is longer than the arm, to use your kick to keep your opponent to be outside of your kicking range is not trained in shadow boxing.

If you learn the integration of kick, punch, lock, and throw, suddenly you forget all about kick, lock, and throw, you just work on punch. It's like a MMA guy who fights in a boxing tournament. It makes no sense to me.

1st line defense - kick.
2nd line defense - punch.
3rd line defense - clinch.

I try to factor this in my shadow boxing because I may want to use a long kick to set up a punch or use a punch to set up a kick. I have to keep in mind things like distance and timing. I need to make sure that I can visualize as much as possible. My ability to do kung fu is directly tied into treating shadow boxing in this manner. I won't get much out of it, if I just blindly punch, without purpose of function. If I want to just punch then I'll create a conditioning drill and do 700 punches

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Basic in CMA is closer to foundation building and not Basic as in easy.

Agree that the basic training is hard.

This is the 1st move of the 1st form in the long fist system. The requirement are to:

- stretch yourself that your back arm, body, front arm make a perfect straight line.
- be able to hold your kick in the air as long as you can.

If one can pass this training stage, he will have good body stretching and single leg balance for the rest of his life.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I won't get much out of it, if I just blindly punch, without purpose of function.

A traffic cop can direct traffic all his life, he won't become MA person because his "intend" is missing when he directs traffic.

 

[Buka]

The issue of shadow "boxing" is you may forget to use your kick to set up your punch. Also since leg is longer than the arm, to use your kick to keep your opponent to be outside of your kicking range is not trained in shadow boxing.

If you learn the integration of kick, punch, lock, and throw, suddenly you forget all about kick, lock, and throw, you just work on punch. It's like a MMA guy who fights in a boxing tournament. It makes no sense to me.

1st line defense - kick.
2nd line defense - punch.
3rd line defense - clinch.

Distance wise, sure, but sometimes fights start well inside kicking range.
There’s also the factor of getting into a scuffle at work, can’t really go kicking a drunken fool, no matter how much he might deserves it. Looks real bad on camera these days as well.

As for forgetting...was the “you” towards me or a “you” in general?
Because I’m a long way from forgetting things that I’ve done forever, brother. I’m sure you are, too!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As for forgetting...was the “you” towards me or a “you” in general?

When I say "you", I always mean the general "YOU".

 

[JowGaWolf]

A traffic cop can direct traffic all his life, he won't become MA person because his "intend" is missing when he directs traffic.

Only because I think you can find anything on the Internet in some shape or form. So I was just curious as to what would that look like

 

[JowGaWolf]

A traffic cop can direct traffic all his life, he won't become MA person because his "intend" is missing when he directs traffic.

I guess people getting grabbed by the shirt happens more often than I thought.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When I shadow box, I throw a hook punch, I can image my opponent dodges under my arm, I then change my hook punch into a back fist on top of his head. I can then image my opponent blocks my back fist. I then use an uppercut to punch under his chin.

If my imaginary opponent is a guy, I will follow by a groin kick. If my imaginary opponent is a girl, I won't.

That is much the way I am with “shadow grappling”.