self defense until im old

[Paul_D]

Are people really that incapable so as to not know how to avoid a fight?

It's a common mistake amongst male martial artists to mistake fighting with self defence. I was thinking more in terms of avoiding unwanted criminal interest, muggers, sexual predators etc that sort for thing. Which is self defence.

Streets fights are illegal and take place between two (or more) participants, all of whom are willing. The purpose is to defeat their opponent.

If one party is not willing, then it is assault and requires self defence (should it have gotten that far due mostly to a lack of the skills I previously mentioned). Self defence is legal, and the purpose is not to defeat the other person, it is only to create the opportunity to facilitate escape.

 

[EddieCyrax]

Are people really that incapable so as to not know how to avoid a fight?

Big egos and mouth, get most people in trouble.....

 

[drop bear]

If one party is not willing, then it is assault and requires self defence (should it have gotten that far due mostly to a lack of the skills I previously mentioned). Self defence is legal, and the purpose is not to defeat the other person, it is only to create the opportunity to facilitate escape.

Most people really don't get into street fights and manage that with no training. And it is easier to escape if the other guy is defeated.

 

[drop bear]

Big egos and mouth, get most people in trouble.....

Dosent explain bullying.

 

[EddieCyrax]

Dosent explain bullying.

Agreed, I guess?!?

Confused?!? Are you mixing up threads?!? I see no discussion on Bullying here....

Conversation as I have read this thread was on why most people fail to avoid or deescalate conflict.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed, I guess?!?

Confused?!? Are you mixing up threads?!? I see no discussion on Bullying here....

Conversation as I have read this thread was on why most people fail to avoid or deescalate conflict.

If someone is bullied and therefore has failed to avoid conflict. You don't blame the victim because the triggers are different. Your bog standard street fight conflict can be a combination of either.

 

[EddieCyrax]

If someone is bullied and therefore has failed to avoid conflict. You don't blame the victim because the triggers are different. Your bog standard street fight conflict can be a combination of either.

Please reconcile this with your post #18.....I admittedly have a head cold today..... but struggle to follow.

I generally agree here, just seems the conversation took a left turn that I am not following.

 

[drop bear]

Please reconcile this with your post #18.....I admittedly have a head cold today..... but struggle to follow.

I generally agree here, just seems the conversation took a left turn that I am not following.

Bullying occurs in part because people are so good at avoiding fights. It allows for predatory behaviour. We are not talking about an in depth system of tactics here. We are talking about this.

A colour code system to tell me where I am in a fight.

So if I am getting punched in the mouth am I in red or black? or just mabye I should stop the guy punching me in the mouth.

 

[Chris Parker]

Are people really that incapable so as to not know how to avoid a fight?

I'm going to be a little blunt here… the fact that you ask that question tells me that you have a very limited understanding of the nature of violence.

I'll put it this way… can you outline some basic tactical approaches for avoiding conflict in the context of social violence? Then contrast that with asocial violence? Can you detail body language approaches designed to minimise being targeted? How about if you're in a different area… does it change? If so, how? What about your choice of words… or colours worn? Or simple dress sense in the first place? What's the difference between passive and aggressive de-escalation? How do you know which to apply? When do you escalate, rather than de-escalate? How do you do that? What is involved in verbal de-escalation? How does that change in social and asocial violence contexts? How does a social group help you, and how does it hinder you (opening you up to potential attack)?

Finally, how much of this is covered by people's lack of training?

Most people really don't get into street fights and manage that with no training.

It's a very different thing not getting into fights and avoiding fights, though… and the fact that most people don't get involved in fights doesn't highlight that they avoid them, it's that they're not in a situation that has a violent component at that point. I mean… most people don't end up in screaming arguments every time they talk to someone either… it's not because everyone is always nice, it's that an argument requires certain things to be present. You don't avoid an argument by not having one…

And it is easier to escape if the other guy is defeated.

Yeah… again, a very limited understanding of the nature of violence…

Dosent explain bullying.

Which is something entirely different.

If someone is bullied and therefore has failed to avoid conflict.

Avoiding conflict wasn't what you said, though… you asked if "people were so incapable so as to not know how to avoid a fight". So… this isn't the same thing at all.

You don't blame the victim because the triggers are different. Your bog standard street fight conflict can be a combination of either.

It's incredibly rare that a "bog standard street fight" is anything to do with bullying, though. It can be about many things, but bullying is a behaviour typically targeted specifically, and applying intimidation, rather than physical confrontation/violence. But, again, this is not what was being talked about.

Bullying occurs in part because people are so good at avoiding fights. It allows for predatory behaviour.

Er, what? No, that's really completely inaccurate on a number of levels. Bullying occurs because some people have a need for a sense of power and control over others… it has nothing to do with anyone being "good at avoiding fights"… and being good at avoiding fights has nothing to do with allowing "predatory behaviour"… which is a bit different again to bullying… so… no.

We are not talking about an in depth system of tactics here. We are talking about this.

A colour code system to tell me where I am in a fight.

Er, yes, when we're talking about fight avoidance, yes, we are talking about an in-depth set of tactics… the colour code being part of one such set, actually. Mind you, it's not to "tell you where you are in a fight"… it's kinda "you're in a fight" or "you're not in one…yet".

So if I am getting punched in the mouth am I in red or black? or just mabye I should stop the guy punching me in the mouth.

You're in the black. But, more realistically, that's completely irrelevant. And no-one is suggesting that, should you be being attacked, you shouldn't try to fight back, stop them, or defend yourself. You're completely misreading a whole slew of concepts here.

 

[jks9199]

Cooper's Color Code has been massively misused and misquoted over the last few years. It's a tool to assess preparedness levels and mindsets, not danger or what's happening. In other words, they're about YOU, not what's around you. In Condition White, your guard is completely down. In Condition Yellow, you're aware, looking around, but there's nothing triggering you get ready for specific threats. A soldier or police officer on patrol, a bouncer watching the crowd... In Condition Orange, things have escalated -- you've seen something, even if you can't put your finger on it yet, that has caused you to make some definite preparations. A cop may have been dispatched to a call, a bouncer may have noticed a change in the flow of the crowd, you may notice someone standing on the side of the road that doesn't feel right... Preparation might mean changing your route, or making sure you can access your gun. In Condition Red, you've made the decision to act. The threat has materialized, and you're doing something about it. In Cooper's original model, you've decided to use lethal force, and the fight is on. Condition Black was added by various people at different points; it wasn't in Cooper's model. It's often used to signify that you've jumped from White or Yellow without changing gears into the fight -- in short, you're panicking.

As a hint... folks generally figure out when they're in a fight, at least if they're conscious after the initial attack. What they often miss are the precursors and build up to it. Folks like Marc MacYoung and Rory Miller have done some good work on the communication patterns and behaviors that lead to a fight -- but they're far from alone. They just happen to be at the top of my mind right now. Jim Glennon is another one, from the police world. The big problem is that you have to be alert and looking to start seeing these indicators, and you have to recognize patterns as they develop. A good book that I found about this is Left of Bang, which modifies training developed for the Marines to a wider audience.

 

[drop bear]

I'm going to be a little blunt here… the fact that you ask that question tells me that you have a very limited understanding of the nature of violence.

I'll put it this way… can you outline some basic tactical approaches for avoiding conflict in the context of social violence? Then contrast that with asocial violence? Can you detail body language approaches designed to minimise being targeted? How about if you're in a different area… does it change? If so, how? What about your choice of words… or colours worn? Or simple dress sense in the first place? What's the difference between passive and aggressive de-escalation? How do you know which to apply? When do you escalate, rather than de-escalate? How do you do that? What is involved in verbal de-escalation? How does that change in social and asocial violence contexts? How does a social group help you, and how does it hinder you (opening you up to potential attack)?

Finally, how much of this is covered by people's lack of training?

I have never met anybody who can teach it with more information than the dumb stuff like color codes.

I can do it to varying milage but couldn't teach it and don't pretend to. The biggest issue you have is that what works for one person may not work for another. And then it has a lot to do with pitch and tone. A lot of very subtle tricks. And to get it you have to engage in a bulk load of conflict.

 

[drop bear]

Cooper's Color Code has been massively misused and misquoted over the last few years. It's a tool to assess preparedness levels and mindsets, not danger or what's happening. In other words, they're about YOU, not what's around you. In Condition White, your guard is completely down. In Condition Yellow, you're aware, looking around, but there's nothing triggering you get ready for specific threats. A soldier or police officer on patrol, a bouncer watching the crowd... In Condition Orange, things have escalated -- you've seen something, even if you can't put your finger on it yet, that has caused you to make some definite preparations. A cop may have been dispatched to a call, a bouncer may have noticed a change in the flow of the crowd, you may notice someone standing on the side of the road that doesn't feel right... Preparation might mean changing your route, or making sure you can access your gun. In Condition Red, you've made the decision to act. The threat has materialized, and you're doing something about it. In Cooper's original model, you've decided to use lethal force, and the fight is on. Condition Black was added by various people at different points; it wasn't in Cooper's model. It's often used to signify that you've jumped from White or Yellow without changing gears into the fight -- in short, you're panicking.

As a hint... folks generally figure out when they're in a fight, at least if they're conscious after the initial attack. What they often miss are the precursors and build up to it. Folks like Marc MacYoung and Rory Miller have done some good work on the communication patterns and behaviors that lead to a fight -- but they're far from alone. They just happen to be at the top of my mind right now. Jim Glennon is another one, from the police world. The big problem is that you have to be alert and looking to start seeing these indicators, and you have to recognize patterns as they develop. A good book that I found about this is Left of Bang, which modifies training developed for the Marines to a wider audience.

Please. You do it anyway. Unless you get an idea that something is on. And then you are working out what to do. Not stuffing around with colour codes.

So from a pub perspective. You go to a pub that normally has four guys on the door and it has no guards. Now you are either going to know that it is an indication that there is a big fight inside or you are not. Regardless of your colour.

Now then you are going to go in there or avoid it. Regardless of your colour.

And if you get caught in a mele you are going to fight or not regardless of your colour.

If you are relying on feelings. You are relying on a flawed system. Peoples feelings are all over the place.

 

[drop bear]

It's incredibly rare that a "bog standard street fight" is anything to do with bullying, though. It can be about many things, but bullying is a behaviour typically targeted specifically, and applying intimidation, rather than physical confrontation/violence. But, again, this is not what was being talked about.

So a street fight doesn't target someone specifically and apply intimidation?

Street fights are not started by guys who think they can win them?

 

[drop bear]

It's a very different thing not getting into fights and avoiding fights, though… and the fact that most people don't get involved in fights doesn't highlight that they avoid them, it's that they're not in a situation that has a violent component at that point. I mean… most people don't end up in screaming arguments every time they talk to someone either… it's not because everyone is always nice, it's that an argument requires certain things to be present. You don't avoid an argument by not having one…

Most people who teach deescalation don't have any life experience in that area.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah… again, a very limited understanding of the nature of violence…

OK. This is not an argument. You haven't made a point. So do you have one? Or just this vague smack talk.

 

[Chris Parker]

I have never met anybody who can teach it with more information than the dumb stuff like color codes.

Can you answer the questions I posed? Oh, and for the record, you have met someone who can teach it with far more than the "colour codes" (I really don't use them at all, by the way). At least, you've had contact with them… and I hazard that there are far more than you realise.

I can do it to varying milage but couldn't teach it and don't pretend to.

Okay… but here's the thing. Just because you can't do something doesn't mean that others can't. Or do.

The biggest issue you have is that what works for one person may not work for another. And then it has a lot to do with pitch and tone. A lot of very subtle tricks. And to get it you have to engage in a bulk load of conflict.

Well, you're right… you couldn't teach this stuff.

Here's the thing… things like pitch and tone are a big part of the lessons (in verbal de-escalation)… different contexts and contingencies are covered… and no, you don't have to "engage in a bulk load of conflict"… you do, however, have to have a good, well designed training methodology, largely based in drills and scenario training.

Please. You do it anyway. Unless you get an idea that something is on. And then you are working out what to do. Not stuffing around with colour codes.

So from a pub perspective. You go to a pub that normally has four guys on the door and it has no guards. Now you are either going to know that it is an indication that there is a big fight inside or you are not. Regardless of your colour.

Now then you are going to go in there or avoid it. Regardless of your colour.

And if you get caught in a mele you are going to fight or not regardless of your colour.

If you are relying on feelings. You are relying on a flawed system. Peoples feelings are all over the place.

Er… what? You brought up the colour code to indicate awareness that you, having been punched, were in a fight… because you seem to think that people already know how to avoid a fight… which you show by having an indication of being in one (not avoided)… JKS explains some pertinent details about the code… and you come back with this, which says… what? That's it's all useless?

Seriously, what are you saying?

So a street fight doesn't target someone specifically and apply intimidation?

It may, and it may not. But the point is that it is not the same format as bullying… I really don't think you have much of an idea what that actually is, though.

Street fights are not started by guys who think they can win them?

What does that have to do with anything I said? Seriously, what are you arguing with?

Most people who teach deescalation don't have any life experience in that area.

According to your belief, which amounts to having no idea, yeah?

OK. This is not an argument. You haven't made a point. So do you have one? Or just this vague smack talk.

My argument is simple. Your posts show a deep, desperate lack of understanding of the nature of violence outside of the small, highly limited experience you've had.

 

[drop bear]

Well, you're right… you couldn't teach this stuff.

Here's the thing… things like pitch and tone are a big part of the lessons (in verbal de-escalation)… different contexts and contingencies are covered… and no, you don't have to "engage in a bulk load of conflict"… you do, however, have to have a good, well designed training methodology, largely based in drills and scenario training.

So how are you getting the deescalation skills? You cannot test deescalation with role play because the person you are testing it on is not emotionally involved. So from scenarios you can't have a good well designed training methodology. You have to field test it.

 

[drop bear]

My argument is simple. Your posts show a deep, desperate lack of understanding of the nature of violence outside of the small, highly limited experience you've had.

Your opinion in this is wrong.

 

[drop bear]

What does that have to do with anything I said? Seriously, what are you arguing with?

OK. Sorry I will explain this more simply. This is street fighting and its link to bullying and even a bit of deescalation for you.

Bullying occurs in part because people are allowed to. The victim is chosen as someone who can't or won't fight back. In the same street fight victims in part are chosen as someone who can't or won't fight back.

This common element of violence is either intentionally or unintentionally predatory.

This comes to an old bouncer saying "your deescalation skills improve comparative to the size of your oponant"

This is one aspect of violence that seems to be ignored in some desperate attempt to separate street fighting from other crimes of violence.

So your opinion that a bog standard street fight has nothing to do with bullying is wrong. There can be a similar motivation.

It may, and it may not. But the point is that it is not the same format as bullying… I really don't think you have much of an idea what that actually is, though.

OK. See here is where you just loose the plot. You set up the standards for what is bullying. And then just change those standards when they are met. It is your format for bullying not mine.

 

[drop bear]

I'll put it this way… can you outline some basic tactical approaches for avoiding conflict in the context of social violence? Then contrast that with asocial violence? Can you detail body language approaches designed to minimise being targeted? How about if you're in a different area… does it change? If so, how? What about your choice of words… or colours worn? Or simple dress sense in the first place? What's the difference between passive and aggressive de-escalation? How do you know which to apply? When do you escalate, rather than de-escalate? How do you do that? What is involved in verbal de-escalation? How does that change in social and asocial violence contexts? How does a social group help you, and how does it hinder you (opening you up to potential attack)?

If there looks like drama. Leave.

Don't be a duchebag.

This works most of the time. Otherwise it gets complicated.

By the way. Passive and aggressive escalation and deescalation you do at the same time. So it is not a when. It is how much of each you are applying