self defence for a friend

[proud beginner]

One by one:


A - Clenching a fist doesn't make someone a violent person. And physical self-defense is usually an aggressive act. A lawyer using that as evidence in an attempt to discredit someone is an idiot.


B - Then you make the fist at the last moment before impact. This was your next point, I believe. I don't know if that's true or not, but that doesn't discredit the concept of the fist, it just means you should clench it just before impact. The best way to avoid that is to learn and practice how to make a proper fist. And I don't know about 'likely'. There have been debates about it on this forum which are probably worth checking out.


C - Not any easier to notice than any other arm movement.


D - The nose, side of the head, ribs are just as real of targets.

E - An attempt to finger jab someone's eye is much riskier than a punch, as it's a smaller target and therefore less likely to hit, and a finger improperly impacting a hard surface can break very easily.


F - One shot one kill is the only way to guarantee getting killed yourself. Your odds of taking an attacker down are astronomically small. Assuming otherwise is either a testament to extraordinary skill or extraordinary arrogance.

G - I wasn't agreeing with you. Tyson didn't become Tyson by giving up on fists off the bat. He practiced a lot and turned them into formidable weapons, what every martial artist should aspire to do.


H - What you're saying is contradictory and absurd.

I - You should kill a person rather than fight him? How is fighting someone worse than killing him? And how do you kill someone who has the bravado to physically threaten you without a fight?


J - The saying has exceptions, and is usually not taken literally. Of course you should beat the living hell out of the person who's trying to rape your girlfriend. The saying applies to interpersonal conflicts, not physical confrontations, like don't get in between your girlfriend and her boss if they're at odds. Advise her, but don't fight on her behalf.

Thanks for asking.

A - Not lawyer, witnesses, will register you as violent, without being conscient of why they do. Then, they will percieve each of your behaviours thru this filter. Then they will remember anything favouring their hypothesis and scotomise what is running against it. Then they will tell just that to the court, feelling perfectly honest and unbiased.

B - Nope. This needs a long training and no stress during the confrontation.

C - False. You can't use a fist from outside the vision of the target.

D - Sorry, but ********. Try to stop a resolved bully weighting 60 pds more than you with that... And if it is cold or raining, try to hit a rib thru a coat...

E - Perfectly true. I never spoke about jabbing.

F - How many life threatening encounters with obvious balance of forces against you did you survive ? Let alone having the bad guy(s) caught and jailed... And I've *very poor* skills. At least from any artistic PoV, save, may be some poetry, and massages...

G - Yes. So, it doesn't apply to "non-artists". Besides, Tyson has nothing to do with a "formidable weapon". He's better than you and me (even together) on ring. Nobody uses weapons on a ring. And I'm not stupid enought to fight Tyson (or even you) on a ring, are you ?

H - I told you that I don't fight.

I - If you snipe at a target from one mile with a .50, do you fight with it, or do you destroy it ? Stop arguing and start contemplating...

J - Sorry for the misunderstanding. I do agree, let's charge my lack of English sayings skills (among so much other lacks of skills...).

 

[Loki]

Thanks for asking.

A - Not lawyer, witnesses, will register you as violent, without being conscient of why they do. Then, they will percieve each of your behaviours thru this filter. Then they will remember anything favouring their hypothesis and scotomise what is running against it. Then they will tell just that to the court, feelling perfectly honest and unbiased.

B - Nope. This needs a long training and no stress during the confrontation.

C - False. You can't use a fist from outside the vision of the target.

D - Sorry, but ********. Try to stop a resolved bully weighting 60 pds more than you with that... And if it is cold or raining, try to hit a rib thru a coat...

E - Perfectly true. I never spoke about jabbing.

F - How many life threatening encounters with obvious balance of forces against you did you survive ? Let alone having the bad guy(s) caught and jailed... And I've *very poor* skills. At least from any artistic PoV, save, may be some poetry, and massages...

G - Yes. So, it doesn't apply to "non-artists". Besides, Tyson has nothing to do with a "formidable weapon". He's better than you and me (even together) on ring. Nobody uses weapons on a ring. And I'm not stupid enought to fight Tyson (or even you) on a ring, are you ?

H - I told you that I don't fight.

I - If you snipe at a target from one mile with a .50, do you fight with it, or do you destroy it ? Stop arguing and start contemplating...

J - Sorry for the misunderstanding. I do agree, let's charge my lack of English sayings skills (among so much other lacks of skills...).

I think I will stop arguing and let your posts speak for themselves.

 

[proud beginner]

I think I will stop arguing and let your posts speak for themselves.

You're getting wiser.

It may be a first step to survival

 

[Loki]

You're getting wiser.

It may be a first step to survival

Only if you consider suicide a form of survival.

 

[proud beginner]

Only if you consider suicide a form of survival.

You're soooooo cute ! :*

 

[Loki]

You're soooooo cute ! :*

I'd probably get warned by a moderator if I said what I think of you...

 

[proud beginner]

I'd probably get warned by a moderator if I said what I think of you...

So, I may have some skills both with law and with cute growing boys...

Well, don't hate me, it will not hurt me and it will give you a bad time. I just tried to give you some information... I think you'll understand it later...

Besides, even this post may hide an information... or not...

 

[Cryozombie]

Moderator note:

I dont like the direction this is going.

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile).

Thank you.

-Technopunk
MT Super Moderator

 

[Adept]

Apart from the legal issues adressed by other posters, never try to teach him to make "a proper fist" !

This is the most stupid thing to learn if you wanna survive (not show your ego strength).

I disagree.

- Potential witnesses will register agressivity and help the opponent in a trial ;

This is a strawman point. Witnesses will remember what people said, who looked like they were going to hit who, etc. They won't only remember that person A had formed a fist, and then conclude that person A was using unreasonable and disproportionate force. They will remember things like 'Person A was shouting, acting aggresively, and threatening person B'.

- Your opponent will mimic your fist, make on more step to physical fight, what is to be avoided at all costs, even by wounding or killing the opponent ;

You need to define 'fight' for me here, and put it into context for likely encounters

- If not trained to clench just before the impact, you'll loose 30% velocity, what means about 50% kinetic power (and much more time for the opponent to react)

How does this make sense? A clenched fist is certainly not 30% slower than an unclenched one.

- Your friend is likely to seriously damage his hand on a head bone (I guess he's not wearing sparring gloves...) ;

A properly formed fist, directed to an appropriate target (Jaw, solar plexus, nose, etc) will not usually break.

- The move of a fist is, most of the time, easy to see and anticipate ;

No more so than other techniques.

- The clenching of the fist prevents from attacking real targets (eyes, throat).

It certainly does. But attacking those targets deliberately opens up a whole other area of 'reasonable and proportionate' questions. If you could just punch him on the nose, how can you defend your decision to jam your fingers into his eye sockets?

You make some good points, and certainly the closed fist is not always the best option, but I feel you sell it far too short.

 

[proud beginner]

1 - I disagree.

A - This is a strawman point. Witnesses will remember what people said, who looked like they were going to hit who, etc. They won't only remember that person A had formed a fist, and then conclude that person A was using unreasonable and disproportionate force. They will remember things like 'Person A was shouting, acting aggresively, and threatening person B'.

B - You need to define 'fight' for me here, and put it into context for likely encounters

C - How does this make sense? A clenched fist is certainly not 30% slower than an unclenched one.

D - A properly formed fist, directed to an appropriate target (Jaw, solar plexus, nose, etc) will not usually break.

E - No more so than other techniques.

F - It certainly does. But attacking those targets deliberately opens up a whole other area of 'reasonable and proportionate' questions. If you could just punch him on the nose, how can you defend your decision to jam your fingers into his eye sockets?

G - You make some good points, and certainly the closed fist is not always the best option, but I feel you sell it far too short.

Thanks for your answer, Adept.

1 - Nice, it's the way people may teach each other and learn form each other.

A - I DO agree that people will not say "He clenched his fists" not even clearely remember it if asked about. My point that what people remember is filtered by their implicit theories and what supports these ones is remembered far better than what oppose them. A clenched fist man looks like much more agressive as a whole than an open handed one, whatever one or the other is really the more agressive. Just look at yourself in a mirror to verify. To make a comparison, if a man with a tie and a suit actually assaulted an other wearing a nailed leather suit and DocMartens boots, the witnesses will not remember the same thing than in the reverse case. Memory is, to make it quick, a kind of *imagination*, and what you believe is strongly influencing what you may access in your memory and how you recontruct and explain it. If you have opened hands, smile and breath slowly (and a few more items) and your opponent is clenching fists, showing a scaring face and breathes frantic, people will "see" that *you* are assaulted, even if they don't remember the former details. For more, I think that with "first impression biais" and "theory confirmation bias", Google may help you.

B - Yep ! I'm guilty here, to use a translation of the French word I use with my students and fellows after a discussion, while not defining it. Besides, it's a pedagogic shortening of something much more complex.

In a few words. If people enter a situation where each other try to hurt the other one by physical ways, while not being hurt by the same ways, in order to force the other one to do or not to do something, this is a fight. The stronger and the best trained will win. Since I speaking about survival, the stronger and the best trained is, in 99% of the cases, the bad guy who assaults a normal one. I bet that no junky is going to try to take on *your* wallet and that, if you work at a desk, nobody is going to try to take *you* from behind it to spit in your face and beat you on the ground. Because they are not crazy. People I train, and the guy whose training is at the begining of the thread may experience that. Then, if they fight, they loose.

Fighting is a game among people of close strength and skills (look at the weight categories in most of the martial arts, in a bad encounter, the weight is *always* against the victim). With a big difference in strength and skills, there's no more fight, there's a predator and a prey. Survival is learning to avoid fight and to learn how to be the predator.

C - Yes, it is. I'm sorry not to have link about that, but it has been mesured with radar. Of course, a much trained individual, like you seems to be, after Ks of hours of training, may overcome the biomecanical contraction of the opposing muscles induced by the clenching. But I'm speaking about untrained people.

D - Jaw, yes. But a jaw will be more seriously harmed by a palm attack, what doesn't put the hand at risk if the target moves and you hit a head bone.

Nose ? Mine has been broken a lot of times. That never stopped me. What about a crack full junky ?

Plexus ? Althought I must admitt that fist is the good hand form here, you have to notice that *you* may, may be, deny me breathing for a while with that *but* that if *I* hit your plexus with *my* fist, you're going to have a good laught before quicking my ***.

E - It's easier and more efficient to attack with palm or fingers from outside the vision of the opponent, than to do that with a fist. Besides, I'm sure that you can dodge about any fist directed to your face, even if surprised. Ask you GF to slap you in the face, from time to time, with surprise. Then, look at the stats.

F - I DOOOOOOO agree. In survival, hitting the target is the last thing to do. It's like using a weapon. Besides, you certainly will have no second chance if you miss. Knowing that, you'll have to do anything possible to avoid fight, poking an eye -- for example -- being the very last option before being beaten. If you need it, it's that you made a mistake before, but everybody may make a mistake. Then, call the emergency to help your opponent (if you don't need to flee away because he's still moving too much) and fill a complaint for assault. Then "I don't remember anything, I was in such a panic ! I felt I was going to die, I don't even know how I hurt the guy... " and so on, with the support of witnesses, see point A.

Of course, if you can stop somebody without harming him, don't charge your karma with overkilling, but, one more time, I'm speaking of a real bad encounter, what your training and appearance may shelter you from. If a kid tries to take on my wallet (and if I see it ), I will certainly not harm him ! Most of the situations, for a trained man like you, is like with a kid for normal people.

G - I hope having done some improvement

 

[Adept]

Memory is, to make it quick, a kind of *imagination*, and what you believe is strongly influencing what you may access in your memory and how you recontruct and explain it. If you have opened hands, smile and breath slowly (and a few more items) and your opponent is clenching fists, showing a scaring face and breathes frantic, people will "see" that *you* are assaulted, even if they don't remember the former details.

Sure, but in terms of what people remember as being aggressive behaviour, I'd say it runs like this:

Stance
Language
Facial expressions
Motions (pointing, shaking of fist in threatening manner)
Clenched fist or open hand

Because of that, and because the fist can be a useful self defense tool, I wouldn't use witnesses perceptions of the event as a reason not to use a closed fist.

C - Yes, it is. I'm sorry not to have link about that, but it has been mesured with radar. Of course, a much trained individual, like you seems to be, after Ks of hours of training, may overcome the biomecanical contraction of the opposing muscles induced by the clenching. But I'm speaking about untrained people.

I'd be extremely dubious about any results. Basic biomechanics indicates that the muscles of the forearm cannot contribute more than 30% of the speed of a punch. Thus, no matter how tense they are, they cannot slow the speed of a punch by 30%.

D - Jaw, yes. But a jaw will be more seriously harmed by a palm attack, what doesn't put the hand at risk if the target moves and you hit a head bone.

Nose ? Mine has been broken a lot of times. That never stopped me. What about a crack full junky ?

Plexus ? Althought I must admitt that fist is the good hand form here, you have to notice that *you* may, may be, deny me breathing for a while with that *but* that if *I* hit your plexus with *my* fist, you're going to have a good laught before quicking my ***.

In my experience, a jaw is just as likely to be damaged by a fist as an open hand. A broken nose, if people are un-used to it (and most people are) is painful enough to pull them up. Added to that, it makes the eyes tear up.

And a properly delivered punch to the solar plexus should break it.

E - It's easier and more efficient to attack with palm or fingers from outside the vision of the opponent, than to do that with a fist. Besides, I'm sure that you can dodge about any fist directed to your face, even if surprised. Ask you GF to slap you in the face, from time to time, with surprise. Then, look at the stats.

Okay, I see where you are coming from now. Fair point.

F - I DOOOOOOO agree. In survival, hitting the target is the last thing to do. It's like using a weapon. Besides, you certainly will have no second chance if you miss. Knowing that, you'll have to do anything possible to avoid fight, poking an eye -- for example -- being the very last option before being beaten. If you need it, it's that you made a mistake before, but everybody may make a mistake. Then, call the emergency to help your opponent (if you don't need to flee away because he's still moving too much) and fill a complaint for assault. Then "I don't remember anything, I was in such a panic ! I felt I was going to die, I don't even know how I hurt the guy... " and so on, with the support of witnesses, see point A.

Agreed.

 

[proud beginner]

A - Sure, but in terms of what people remember as being aggressive behaviour, I'd say it runs like this:

Stance
Language
Facial expressions
Motions (pointing, shaking of fist in threatening manner)
Clenched fist or open hand

Because of that, and because the fist can be a useful self defense tool, I wouldn't use witnesses perceptions of the event as a reason not to use a closed fist.

B - I'd be extremely dubious about any results. Basic biomechanics indicates that the muscles of the forearm cannot contribute more than 30% of the speed of a punch. Thus, no matter how tense they are, they cannot slow the speed of a punch by 30%.

C - In my experience, a jaw is just as likely to be damaged by a fist as an open hand. A broken nose, if people are un-used to it (and most people are) is painful enough to pull them up. Added to that, it makes the eyes tear up.

And a properly delivered punch to the solar plexus should break it.

D - Okay, I see where you are coming from now. Fair point.

Thanks for your detailed answer.

A - Sincerly, I don't know. Even if it's certainly not a scientific protocol, I suggest that you try with yourself : take different stances and facial expressions, look at yourself in a mirror, then open and clench your fists. You may try the same thing facing friends, and ask them to do it facing you. Then ask about your and their feelings of the percieved agressiveness...

B - Clenching the fist in a stressfull situation leads to a contraction of the whole limb. This reflex contraction slows the move.

C - If it has the same effect (same thing about the nose), why to take a risk of being hand wounded on a head bone ? Besides, the palm is wider and more precise. Ever tried to slap a mosquito with a fist ?

About the plexus (palm or fingers obviously doesn't work here, save in some funky movies), I think that you speak about breaking the extremity of the sternum, not the plexus itself. This needs extreme precision, hitting a very small area with a "kento" or a "devil" fist... I think that even you shouldn't rely on that, if the opponent is moving / wears somewhat heavy clothes. But my point was about "normal" people, who are unable to achieve any harm doing that. When training people relying on that out of movies addiction -- one more time, I'm not speaking about black belts -- I just offer me as a target and they experience how vain it may be.

Of course, I will not try with you nor with a 250 lbs bodybuilder... Just "normal" people.

D - Thanks for the point ... while I still wonder where I come from, where I go to and who I am

Besides :
- Clenching is mimetic, opening your hands may decrease the tension and avoid any wound ;
- Your opponent will not anticipate an attack from a smiling and open handed victim, what multiplicates the chances of hitting him ;
- Clenching *could* be related to stress apnea, what is the worst ennemy in a bad encounter (While I'm not sure of that, at time).

CU soon

 

[bcbernam777]

If you are to train him, (and I would suggest not, it may be better to refer him to another school etc) then you must while you are training him, detach yourself from your friendship i.e. leave the friendship outside the door when training begins and dont pick it up until training ends. The reason I believe you must do this that if you are to train him effectivly and raise his abilities to deal with violent situations, you need to be able to push him, and draw that agressivenes out of him (note I didn't say violence, there is a difference) and for that you need to put on your teachers hat, there are no friends inside the training hall neither are their enemies there is simply training.

 

[Gin-Gin]

While I understand the concern for your friend, I agree with the others on this matter. IMHO, I think that rather than getting involved, you should seek out the advice of someone, such as your instructor, the police, etc., who can offer you some professional advice. Having him fight with his mothers boyfriend, is not going to help matters, but instead make them worse. Chances are they'll both end up getting arrested.-Mike

Ditto! :ultracool