self defence for a friend

[Tony]

I have been training in my current kung fu style for 6 years and have recently got my brown sash so I am at teaching level now. I have a friend of mine who was involved in an incident with his mother and her boyfriend. Her boyfriend doesn't seem like a very nice person and attacked my friend so he called the police. This all happened over some minor incident with his mother and her boyfriend jumped to the wrong conclusion and i guess saw this as an excuse to attack him.

I think it might be a good idea if I just helped him out with some basic self defence techniques and even teach him how to strike. He doesn't even know how to make a proper fist. He is not a violent person so if he were attacked he would be easy pickings. I have offered to train with him over the weekend and in turn through teaching him I would improve my skills too.

What are your thoughts on this and how would you go about teaching a friend. I have a few ideas on some kind of training programme but woudl welcome your thoughts and ideas.

 

[searcher]

You are asking for trouble geting involved with domestics. If you teach him and he uses this, you are going to be held partly responsible. If your friend needs to be able to defend himself then he needs to sign up for a SD class. Don't take this on for anything. Tell him to keep the police informed and if possible move out.

 

[shesulsa]

I think you might consider bringing this up to your instructor, given the legalities that could arise as searcher pointed out. The absolute best thing to do right now is to make sure you find out where he can stay if he needs to - such as a half-way house or something, or friends - get him your phone number where he can reach you, and encourage him to report incidents when he's ready to be out of the house in a flash.

> Do not - I repeat - DO NOT attempt to fight his battles for him.

> Do seriously consider the ramifications before teaching him anything or taking him into your house.

>Do not take this lightly.

> Do always remember there is always more than one side to every story.

 

[MJS]

I have been training in my current kung fu style for 6 years and have recently got my brown sash so I am at teaching level now. I have a friend of mine who was involved in an incident with his mother and her boyfriend. Her boyfriend doesn't seem like a very nice person and attacked my friend so he called the police. This all happened over some minor incident with his mother and her boyfriend jumped to the wrong conclusion and i guess saw this as an excuse to attack him.

I think it might be a good idea if I just helped him out with some basic self defence techniques and even teach him how to strike. He doesn't even know how to make a proper fist. He is not a violent person so if he were attacked he would be easy pickings. I have offered to train with him over the weekend and in turn through teaching him I would improve my skills too.

What are your thoughts on this and how would you go about teaching a friend. I have a few ideas on some kind of training programme but woudl welcome your thoughts and ideas.

While I understand the concern for your friend, I agree with the others on this matter. IMHO, I think that rather than getting involved, you should seek out the advice of someone, such as your instructor, the police, etc., who can offer you some professional advice. Having him fight with his mothers boyfriend, is not going to help matters, but instead make them worse. Chances are they'll both end up getting arrested.

Mike

 

[shesulsa]

Having him fight with his mothers boyfriend, is not going to help matters, but instead make them worse. Chances are they'll both end up getting arrested.

... or worse.

 

[Flatlander]

Tony, I have to echo Shesulsa's sentiment here. You need to tread lightly here. If your buddy wants training, let him seek it out. As you know, a student will only absorb teaching if they truly want the teaching. Furthermore, you are proposing to engage yourself in a potential conflict of interest. Let your friend remain your friend - be supportive as best you can. Be an ear and a shoulder.

I also have to say here that if you, Tony, came to me with the problem that your friend has come to you with, I would be encouraging you to remove yourself from the situation and the hostile environment, not trying to help you prepare for the next incident. Know what I'm saying? :asian:

 

[MA-Caver]

I too echo the sentiments of the others that it's a sticky to get involved in another's domestic affairs.
You are an honorable friend that you desire to help him learn how to protect himself (and likely his mother) from an abusive situation. Yet the sticky is that if he doesn't do what you teach him properly then he'll either get hurt worse or he will hurt the BF worse than he intended. You know as well as the rest of us that (any) MA takes disicpline. Which takes a long time to develop and continual practice.
Check into it... maybe your hands will be tied and you can do nothing. But you can still be there as a friend to help him when it blows over. It's one of the things that makes life suck but one of the things that we sometimes have to accept and find other ways to help.

 

[Drac]

You are asking for trouble geting involved with domestics. Tell him to keep the police informed and if possible move out.

Amen to that post brother..Avoid all involvement in domestic matters at all costs. You will wind up on the losing end..

 

[arnisador]

Yes, get involved, but do it by helping him find the right resources, including the police, social services, school counselors if applicable, finding his own apt. if applicable, etc. Helping him find a competent self-defense instructor is great, but it could be awkward if you were the instructor.

 

[kenpochad]

Yes, get involved, but do it by helping him find the right resources, including the police, social services, school counselors if applicable, finding his own apt. if applicable, etc. Helping him find a competent self-defense instructor is great, but it could be awkward if you were the instructor.

I agree you cant just sit there and not help a friend

 

[still learning]

Hello, Lot's of good advice! One more to think about? There are good books on verbal communications, such as Verbal Judo, Tongue Fu, and so on. Plus I recommend reading any of "mac the animal books.

One will learn it is best to avoid any confrontations and best to descalate the situtions.

His mom and boyfriend has not grown up yet and knows only one way to deal with people.

Your friend needs to get away from the abuse and best to seek professonal help,

Fighting back will only make things worst......is that how wars get started?.........Aloha

 

[Sapper6]

i'd say help your friend in whatever manner you feel is best. don't go off what we say. we're not in the situation and we all know it's easy to call the shots from the sidelines. in saying this, i certainly don't mean you should teach him throat shots and bone breakers. just help him. call the cops for him. that doesn't mean it would necessarily work. if you were in his shoes, you would want the help, right?

to those of you who caution "tread lightly": why the need to be SO cautious and protective? as instructors in the martial arts, is there room for this kind of attitude toward the situation at hand? is this what you do with your OWN students? i wouldn't think so. :idunno:

even the simplest of technique could possibly save the guy's life someday, should it come to that...i wouldn't want to be apart of NOT helping him. :asian:

 

[MJS]

i'd say help your friend in whatever manner you feel is best. don't go off what we say. we're not in the situation and we all know it's easy to call the shots from the sidelines. in saying this, i certainly don't mean you should teach him throat shots and bone breakers. just help him. call the cops for him. that doesn't mean it would necessarily work. if you were in his shoes, you would want the help, right?

to those of you who caution "tread lightly": why the need to be SO cautious and protective? as instructors in the martial arts, is there room for this kind of attitude toward the situation at hand? is this what you do with your OWN students? i wouldn't think so. :idunno:

Well, you said it best in your above statement. We can all sit here and offer advice, however ultimately its the person getting that advice, that needs to process it, and decide for himself what to do. There are certianly better qualified people such as a counselor or Police Officer, who would be able to offer them advice on a professional level. Like any SD situation, doing your best to remove yourself from that situation should be first and foremost! If his Mothers BF is becoming violent, I would think it would be best to leave the apt. or house, go to a neighbors and call the Police, rather than sit there and trade punches. It is not my job to get involved with the personal affairs of students. I can offer them advice, as I already said. Anything that I teach them or advise them do to, could possibly come back to haunt me. There are some good lawyers out there.

even the simplest of technique could possibly save the guy's life someday, should it come to that...i wouldn't want to be apart of NOT helping him. :asian:

Why does helping him have to involve something physical? Whats to say that what he is taught is going to work? The arts do not turn people into Supermen. Something that may work well for me, may not have the same outcome for him. Again, I am helping by offering that he seek outside help.

Mike

 

[arnisador]

Why does helping him have to involve something physical?

There's the martial arts tunnel vision at work, yes. It's important to think in terms of self-defense here, not fighting as such.

Whats to say that what he is taught is going to work?

Yes, another risk. Too little knowledge can be dangerous.

If I was going to teach someone to defend themselves in an actual encounter, I'd want 6 months. You could teach some adequate boxing in half that time, but in a house a kitchen knife could easily come into play. In 6 months a person might learn enough to know what to do and have a chance, though I've been at it since 1979 and wouldn't want to face an untrained person with a knife.

 

[Tony]

Thanks for all your advice and I know I am not a qualified instructor but I do have 6 years of training under my belt (no pun intended !). I certainly wouldn't want him to inflict too much pain or end up killing someone. BUt I feel he is one of life's victims and I don't think he would consider joining a Martial Arts class as he would find that intimidating and he really isn't a sporty person at all. In fact he disliked most sports at school and his coordination isn't so good.

Atleast I could maybe help him feel better about himself by helping him to get fit. Now that i am at teaching level I think I would enjoy teaching people but only small groups of no more than 4/5. If I do teach him it may also help improve my skills too as i have some pads I want to work on and no one to hold them. I think that this kind of training or anything similar woudl help take his mind off his problems.

I do recall even before I starting formal training i had some minimal training and I used to teach this kid what I knew and I think he did misuse it, probably because of his age and wanting to intimidate would be bullies.

 

[proud beginner]

He doesn't even know how to make a proper fist. He is not a violent person so if he were attacked he would be easy pickings. I have offered to train with him over the weekend and in turn through teaching him I would improve my skills too.

Apart from the legal issues adressed by other posters, never try to teach him to make "a proper fist" !

This is the most stupid thing to learn if you wanna survive (not show your ego strength).

- Potential witnesses will register agressivity and help the opponent in a trial ;
- Your opponent will mimic your fist, make on more step to physical fight, what is to be avoided at all costs, even by wounding or killing the opponent ;
- If not trained to clench just before the impact, you'll loose 30% velocity, what means about 50% kinetic power (and much more time for the opponent to react) ;
- Your friend is likely to seriously damage his hand on a head bone (I guess he's not wearing sparring gloves...) ;
- The move of a fist is, most of the time, easy to see and anticipate ;
- The clenching of the fist prevents from attacking real targets (eyes, throat).

Looking like a "non alpha", your friend may enjoy surprise effect on a bully. Train him to attack real targets with fingers from outside the sights of the opponent. The most difficult is to finish this kind of moves, but defending one's mother may be a strong motivation.

One shot, one kill.

This will help him to restraint, feeling the craziness of any *real* fight and, may be, to defuse the situation.

 

[Loki]

Apart from the legal issues adressed by other posters, never try to teach him to make "a proper fist" !

This is the most stupid thing to learn if you wanna survive (not show your ego strength).

- Potential witnesses will register agressivity and help the opponent in a trial ;
- Your opponent will mimic your fist, make on more step to physical fight, what is to be avoided at all costs, even by wounding or killing the opponent ;
- If not trained to clench just before the impact, you'll loose 30% velocity, what means about 50% kinetic power (and much more time for the opponent to react) ;
- Your friend is likely to seriously damage his hand on a head bone (I guess he's not wearing sparring gloves...) ;
- The move of a fist is, most of the time, easy to see and anticipate ;
- The clenching of the fist prevents from attacking real targets (eyes, throat).

Looking like a "non alpha", your friend may enjoy surprise effect on a bully. Train him to attack real targets with fingers from outside the sights of the opponent. The most difficult is to finish this kind of moves, but defending one's mother may be a strong motivation.

One shot, one kill.

This will help him to restraint, feeling the craziness of any *real* fight and, may be, to defuse the situation.

Are you advocating not using a fist at all? I can understand the logic behind palm strikes, and using fingers to attack weak-spots like eyes, but a proper fist is essential for unarmed combat

"One shot, one kill" is a sniper motto, totally unfit for street fighting. In a fight you have to hit several times and be certain your attacker is down for the count.

And your second point makes no sense: wound or kill your opponent to avoid a fight?! Maybe I misunderstood you...

Addressing the main issue, it's been said before: don't fight other people fights for them. I made that mistake more than once, albeit on less serious issues, but the principle still applies. Check legalities and encourage your friend to start a SD class, even offer to go with him once or twice. My two bits.

 

[proud beginner]

Are you advocating not using a fist at all? I can understand the logic behind palm strikes, and using fingers to attack weak-spots like eyes, but a proper fist is essential for unarmed combat

"One shot, one kill" is a sniper motto, totally unfit for street fighting. In a fight you have to hit several times and be certain your attacker is down for the count.

And your second point makes no sense: wound or kill your opponent to avoid a fight?! Maybe I misunderstood you...

Addressing the main issue, it's been said before: don't fight other people fights for them. I made that mistake more than once, albeit on less serious issues, but the principle still applies. Check legalities and encourage your friend to start a SD class, even offer to go with him once or twice. My two bits.

Thanks for your answer and questions. I'll try to adress your points.

First of all, I do agree with you : using law anytime it's possible. My point was about when it is not.

Yes, I say and never insist enought that using fist when you are not an expert both in law and in hand fighting is the worse error one can do. I made a long list in my post about that, do you disagree with some of its content ?

Yes, one shot, one kill is the onliest way for normal people to have chance to get rid of a bully, when all psychological ways hadn't work. I do agree with you : with fists (if you're not Tyson or something), it's impossible. Poke an eye, crush a throat : Enditem.

It's why I say that normal people (and the guy the first poster intended to train is part of this class) must wire their mind on avoiding any fight, even by killing. If normal people fight with a bully, they loose, don't they ?

BTW, there's lots of limits to your "don't fight someone else fight". Would you look at a friend (or GF) being assaulted whitout trying to help ? I can't imagine that. And what about a rape attempt or something like that ?

 

[tradrockrat]

Well, I'll weigh in on this one. I'm somewhere in the middle of the argument here. Let answer your question by replying with what I would and have done.

Is this friend a TRUE friend? By that, I mean do you consider him family? If so, I would feel obligated to help him. I would of course approach from a standpoint that he should remove himself from the situation, but we all know this isn't always possible. We're not in grade school here. If he can, he should - otherwise it's time to get serious.

I don't know the whole situation and most likely you don't either. I WOULD FIND OUT!

I would do everything I can to solve the problem without violence! In the meantime, I would teach your friend the nastiest, dirtiest, most brutal tactics I know and let him know what he's getting himself into if he uses it. A little knowledge can be dangerous AND FALSLEY EMPOWERING! Don't let your friend start thinking he's the next Bruce Lee. He may very well go looking for the fight. Serious tactics call for serious consideration of when to use them. Brutality has it's own power to sober up the neophyte.
If all else fails, get involved for your friends safety. I know what I'd do, but that may not be right for you. I'd ask myself, "If you leave a brother behind, what kind of person are you?" I've stood behind a "brother" when the chips were down, and it's a scary thing, but it's the right thing IMHO.

As for those that say you may be responsible, I say yes you are - to your friend and to your selfrespect. Do the right thing because it's the right thing to do and be damned the consequences.

One of my favorite quotes of all time is:

"It is better to live one day as a Lion, than a life time as a sheep."


BTW - Don't forget to try to solve it without violence! Chances are you can, and that makes you a REAL warrior (again IMHO).

 

[Loki]

Yes, I say and never insist enought that using fist when you are not an expert both in law and in hand fighting is the worse error one can do. I made a long list in my post about that, do you disagree with some of its content?

One by one:

- Potential witnesses will register agressivity and help the opponent in a trial ;

Clenching a fist doesn't make someone a violent person. And physical self-defense is usually an aggressive act. A lawyer using that as evidence in an attempt to discredit someone is an idiot.

- Your opponent will mimic your fist, make on more step to physical fight, what is to be avoided at all costs, even by wounding or killing the opponent ;

Then you make the fist at the last moment before impact. This was your next point, I believe.

- If not trained to clench just before the impact, you'll loose 30% velocity, what means about 50% kinetic power (and much more time for the opponent to react) ;

I don't know if that's true or not, but that doesn't discredit the concept of the fist, it just means you should clench it just before impact.

- Your friend is likely to seriously damage his hand on a head bone (I guess he's not wearing sparring gloves...) ;

The best way to avoid that is to learn and practice how to make a proper fist. And I don't know about 'likely'. There have been debates about it on this forum which are probably worth checking out.

- The move of a fist is, most of the time, easy to see and anticipate ;

Not any easier to notice than any other arm movement.

- The clenching of the fist prevents from attacking real targets (eyes, throat).

The nose, side of the head, ribs are just as real of targets. An attempt to finger jab someone's eye is much riskier than a punch, as it's a smaller target and therefore less likely to hit, and a finger improperly impacting a hard surface can break very easily.

Yes, one shot, one kill is the onliest way for normal people to have chance to get rid of a bully, when all psychological ways hadn't work. I do agree with you : with fists (if you're not Tyson or something), it's impossible. Poke an eye, crush a throat : Enditem.

One shot one kill is the only way to guarantee getting killed yourself. Your odds of taking an attacker down are astronomically small. Assuming otherwise is either a testament to extraordinary skill or extraordinary arrogance.

I wasn't agreeing with you. Tyson didn't become Tyson by giving up on fists off the bat. He practiced a lot and turned them into formidable weapons, what every martial artist should aspire to do.

It's why I say that normal people (and the guy the first poster intended to train is part of this class) must wire their mind on avoiding any fight, even by killing. If normal people fight with a bully, they loose, don't they ?

What you're saying is contradictory and absurd. You should kill a person rather than fight him? How is fighting someone worse than killing him? And how do you kill someone who has the bravado to physically threaten you without a fight?

BTW, there's lots of limits to your "don't fight someone else fight". Would you look at a friend (or GF) being assaulted whitout trying to help ? I can't imagine that. And what about a rape attempt or something like that ?

The saying has exceptions, and is usually not taken literally. Of course you should beat the living hell out of the person who's trying to rape your girlfriend. The saying applies to interpersonal conflicts, not physical confrontations, like don't get in between your girlfriend and her boss if they're at odds. Advise her, but don't fight on her behalf.