Scruples

[Shu2jack]

You are right Zepp, I need to calm down and I apologize for getting fired up.

I can see where people unfamiliar with the ATA or martial arts can get confused about the World Champion title under a instructor's credentials. I kind of just took it for granted because I know that TKD and other activities have various champions for the same activity. Perhaps myself, or anyone on the forum, should write an e-mail to any instructor from any organization who forgets to clarify the exact title he/she earned and from what organization he/she earned it from.

 

[pakua]

And who competes in the World Series might I ask

I guess words like World, National, State etc are pretty free to bandy around, and so IMO it's important to include an indication of whose rules were in place.

Look at professional boxing for example.... there are lots of World Champions and so they always say stuff like IBF World Heavyweight Champ etc. That way, anyone versed in the sport can say "Ok, the IBF rules are blah blah blah, while the WBF rules are yadda yadda, so therefore I will consider this champinship to mean what what what." Those not in the know, will in anycase get the info that since the championship's name is qualified as IBF, then there presumably are other championships around.

Unless they do use appropriate qualifications of the title name, they are least vague, and possibly guilty of passing off.

Interesting thing to think about, all this....

 

[Mark70Z]

Shu...I might as well chime in since we're "again" discussing the ATA. Since I do have personal knowledge, since my son was in the ATA up till February of this year (He was in the ATA 6 years).

I think when someone says something negative about you, you have to ask yourself a question. Is it true? If it is, work on it to make it better...if not, forget about it. Same in this instance. As you know I have many issues with the ATA, but I consider myself one who would really like to see this organization do better since it does have a lot of potential (many good instructors, good cirriculum, just a lot of good people). I think the ATA gets bashed a lot, and some of it is definitely deserved.

Now...on the "World Champion", or "State Champion"...oh...least we should forget "National Champion". Also, don't forget, this would include World Champion in sparring, or forms, or weapons...same with the state champion (I guess that would be the same for National Champion also?). Anyway, I personally think the State Champion is a joke (IMO). All you have to do is go to a lot of tournaments; really doesn't matter if it's in your state or not. Also, my son was competing in Orlando at the National ATA tournament, and we were talking to a lady next to us who's son was in my sons group. We noticed her son had a State Champion patches on his gi. So we asked her about it...she said he only competed in two tournaments that previous year, and did not win in either one...hmm. Just a matter of points. I'm sure in some states you'd only have to place in one tournament and still win the State Championship. Other states you would just have to go to a lot of touraments.

As far as the World's go. For most groups you "really do" have to be good. My only beef is that they call themselves "World Champions", and really aren't. They are "ATA World Champions", and they really need to put this in their credentials. It's my view that when people hear they are World Champions "most" think it's just what it says...Champion of the World, not Champions of the ATA.

One note...the ATA has "closed" tournaments, you have to be a "member" to compete. In "open" tournaments, anyone can compete.

 

[white belt]

I was hoping an ATA supporter would have come to the conclusions that Zepp and Pakua did by now. Posting WHOSE championships (governing body) that the credentials came from would display more integrity in ATA advertizing. That is the whole point. Not doing so smacks of deceptive business practice. I am not pointing at any particular ATA school or student. I am pointing at the general ATA business practice pointed out above. Letting people know UP FRONT that you don't compete with the larger segment of the TKD population would show honesty. Then possibly some of the negative publicity would diminish.

Yes, I have been to an ATA class and watched. So have some of my students and other friends. We all came away realizing that you guys, for the most part, push people through the ranks way too quickly. Are all guilty of this? I would expect not. The chain seems too successful to make this a commonality. The pricing for most everything is higher than the average school to. This happens in ALL systems and areas of the country and it is nothing new. Commenting on it is redundant and I apologize for being redundant. I was asked if I had contact with the chain and at the risk of being redundant I had to echo some others opinions on the forum. Just being honest. Different schools / systems all have their way of doing things. I say go for it. But don't display ambiguous advertizing concerning credentials and cry foul when people have the common sense to question it. That would be more akin to "bullying" than anything I have pointed out on this thread.

On the subject of "bullying". Anyone remember the "ringer" method of ferreting out paper tigers? Back in the 60's and 70's around L.A., Chicago, etc. practioners with a mean streak would target an Instructor or school who made grandiose claims in this or that. They would walk in and pose themselves as a novice. Once on the mat they would "pull out all of the stops" and hand the target their butt right in front of the students they were bilking out of time and money. I abhore that kind of practice.....but, I understand how it could happen. Let's hope that trend doesn't come back in vogue. Now THAT'S bullying!

If any ATA business owners or students are concerned about their being future flack concerning titles, etc. have the director of marketing, or whomever, correct the omission evident in the advertizing concerning WHOSE championships they have won! Then people like myself won't be able to take legitimate issue. Until then, good luck.

white belt

 

[Shu2jack]

I think when someone says something negative about you, you have to ask yourself a question. Is it true? If it is, work on it to make it better...if not, forget about it. Same in this instance.

Normally I would agree with that, however, I was, strongly, responding because of the fact that I felt an ATA member whom I respect was having their name disrespected. If Mrs. Beddow or any of the other instrutors were on this forum, well, they are adults and they can take care of themselves.

As for ATA state champions, I think the program needs a bit of work and that color belts need to be removed from the program. There are a lot of black belts who are very talented, but for one reason or another can not accumilate the points needed to make the "Top Ten". I think having individual state champions is a good thing if implemented correctly.

And ANYONE can compete in ATA "closed" tournaments. Mr. Chat entered our organization as a 4th degree upon testing at our World tournament. Other black belts from other styles have entered our system with their black belt by testing into the system. ATA tournaments are schedule about a year in advance and they are all listed on the ATA web site. If somone wants to compete they can sign up at any ATA school, test in, and compete when the tournament hits. We do this in order to maintain quality control. If we have any problems with a competitor we can black list him and take care of the instructor who allowed him in in the first place. Sure it takes a lot more effort to enter our "closed" tournaments, but if you really care about competing in our tournaments and taking a shot at our title, then I would expect someone to at least partially commit to our organization or take the time and energy to fully become familiar with our customs, rules, regulations, and ways of doing things.

I was hoping an ATA supporter would have come to the conclusions that Zepp and Pakua did by now. Posting WHOSE championships (governing body) that the credentials came from would display more integrity in ATA advertizing. That is the whole point. Not doing so smacks of deceptive business practice. I am not pointing at any particular ATA school or student. I am pointing at the general ATA business practice pointed out above. Letting people know UP FRONT that you don't compete with the larger segment of the TKD population would show honesty. Then possibly some of the negative publicity would diminish.

I honestly do not believe any ATA member was purposely trying to deceive anyone. When ATA people talk about State, World, or National champs to other instructors or students everyone knows we are referring to the ATA. It is just part of our lingo which spills out when listing creditentials or talking about tournaments.

I must apologize on behalf of the organization and take more care in listing our accomplishments. Also, I must ask that others do not automatically assume foul play. Our certificates say "World Champ", our uniforms say "World Champ", we announce it as "World Champ" and since we have closed tournaments everyone knows what the title means. It is short for ATA World Champ. So when we talk about it, what do we say a lot of the time? World Champ, not ATA World Champ.

 

[Mark70Z]

Shu: First of all, I was speaking "when someone says something negative about YOU", you should ask the question. I didn't say there was anything wrong with defending another persons character.

Secondly, do you think Mike Chat entered the ATA to compete in tournaments?!? I can assure you that the ATA has invested a lot of money in the XMA, and I'm sure they are expecting a "BIG" return on their investment. I knew it was just a matter of time before the ATA would jump on the XMA bandwagon. I'm not saying that to be altogether negative; it's my opinion that they are looking at this as being a "HUGE" money making proposition.

So, I walk into an ATA school and say I want to sign up, test in, then I can go to the ATA tournaments. Is this what your saying? Remember we were in the ATA for "six years". We stopped going in February of this year. "SIGN UP"...how much is that going to cost me?? "Open" tournaments, you go...any style is welcome.

Your right. The state champ thing needs to be revisited. Also, I don't see how a person can be in the top ten without forking over major money to make it happen.

 

[white belt]

Thanks to all who contributed their views on the topic. There is always something of value I learn when I walk away from this forum. Omitting data, when marketing, can appear underhanded even if unintentional. Curious now to see if any data changes for clarities sake.

white belt

 

[Marginal]

I must apologize on behalf of the organization and take more care in listing our accomplishments. Also, I must ask that others do not automatically assume foul play. Our certificates say "World Champ", our uniforms say "World Champ", we announce it as "World Champ" and since we have closed tournaments everyone knows what the title means. It is short for ATA World Champ. So when we talk about it, what do we say a lot of the time? World Champ, not ATA World Champ.

Still, if I placed first in a school tournament, and was awarded a gold medal, would it make sense to bill myself as simply a "Gold medalist" on my marketing material, or might the inferences drawn be wildly different than what I'm trying to claim?

 

[Mark70Z]

Marginal: Your right. There needs to be something that states ATA World Champion, not just World Champion. I remember when we first joined the ATA and I saw that one of the members was a "World Champion", I was like WOW. Then eventually found out that these were World Champions within the ATA, not really the World. I'm not saying these people are not talented, they are, but when marketing the school, or product they need to be more clear, and not make inferences so people will not make assumtions.

Shu: Just remember, the certificates for "World Champ" have ATA all over the certificate. The uniform with "World Champ" has ATA posted across the front and back of the gi. When you announce "World Champ" your at an ATA event. So I think this is clear, but when you advertise and say your are a "World Champ" you need to let the rest of the world know your an ATA champ. I think your wrong with the assumption that "everyone knows" even if your in the ATA, not everyone does, I didn't and the people who joined at the same time as I didn't. I'm sure there are plenty that don't, but they'll eventually figure it out.

I'm hopefully correct in saying "most" of these people who list this under their credentials don't do it to deceive people. If they market this to deceive individuals to get people to think of them above what they are, then it's plain wrong. Hopefully they are not doing it to get more people to join and train under a "World Champ".

 

[hardheadjarhead]

When the ATA credentials such as "State" or "World Champion" are from an OPEN governing body (IOC, USTU, AAU, etc.) who is NOT ATA owned, you won't have to defend the credibility of such claims. It's that simple.

"Standing in fertilizer won't help the nut become a mighty oak any sooner"-David Carradine...or was it Richard Simmons?

white belt

I'm no fan of the ATA, but they have every right to have their own championships and their own titles. They're a huge organization...granted, a business franchise...but they can easily field a large number of competitors and can justify state/regional/national championships. As for world championships...I didn't know they were international.

As for her not stating that she is ATA "world champion," I don't necessarily believe she's being disingenuous. ATA people don't think out of the box much, from what I've seen. To her, that may be her martial arts "world." She could be a perfectly honest woman who doesn't look at things the way many of us do.

I've seen worse done with smaller organizations...and I've seen this done for thirty years. My seniors have seen it going on for longer than that, I don't doubt. I recall an "Indiana State Championship" tournament that was nothing more than an open invitational tournament. The name was an attempt to draw people. There was no hosting organization...just an instructor.

Come to think of it...I went to two Indiana Tae Kwon Do championships in one year that were hosted by different instructors.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Shu2jack]

Secondly, do you think Mike Chat entered the ATA to compete in tournaments?!?

I know why Mr. Chat entered the ATA, but he entered the ATA as a senior rank, which shows that the ATA will honor your previous rank in another style, or test you into the organization based on your skill level and experience in the martial arts.

Remember, not every ATA school is the same. I allow my students to sign up for 2 month periods instead of 2 years. If a black belt from a different style wants to join my school for the sole purpose of competing in our tournaments, I have no problem with it as long as he meets a series of requirements. Many instructors feel the same way.

Still, if I placed first in a school tournament, and was awarded a gold medal, would it make sense to bill myself as simply a "Gold medalist" on my marketing material, or might the inferences drawn be wildly different than what I'm trying to claim?

I see your point and I agree. Clarification would reduce confusion. How ever, by posting a vague claim like, "Gold Medalist" people will inquire about the award just like how people on this board were inquiring about some of the "World Champ" titles. If anyone on this board wants to e-mail Mrs. Beddow or any other ATA about their title you will receive an honest answer on how they got their title, who gave them their title, and what the requirements were in order to acheive the title.

I agree with you guys in this thread, people should use more exact wording and clarification of a title. What I was fighting against was that I thought people were questioning the validity, thus integrity, of a title of a person I greatly respect.

As for world championships...I didn't know they were international.

I have had the privilage of competing against gentlemen from both Brazil and Korea. While it is not as common since the ATA is the larger of the organization and world travel is quite expensive.

ATA people don't think out of the box much, from what I've seen. To her, that may be her martial arts "world." She could be a perfectly honest woman who doesn't look at things the way many of us do.

Out of curosity, what makes you come to that opinion and what exactly are you referring to by "thinking out of the box"? Look at what things the way many of you guys do?

 

[Mark70Z]

Shu: I guess I said it before, but if the ATA schools in FL were like the one your at, then I'm sure my feelings would be totally different. I think it's great that you let individuals sign up for short periods of time, instead of what is common place down here, which is at least two years (at least from our experience). Hopefully, with you, and those like you within the ATA organization, the view of the organization should improve.

Just so you know I wasn't questioning whether the ATA will honor a rank, I was just saying that you have to "join" the ATA and in joining down here that is a major money investment. By the way, how much do you think it cost Mr. Chat to join the ATA? I think it would be a safe bet to say $0. What's your view of the XMA within the ATA, or is it called ATA Xtreme?

 

[Shu2jack]

By the way, how much do you think it cost Mr. Chat to join the ATA?

It depends on who Mr. Chat enrolls under. If he was to enroll through my school he would pay $40/mo. He he enrolls under some schools it may be $100. If it was under our Grand Master, I would be willing to pay every spare dollar I had. (Which really isn't much. :idunno: )

What's your view of the XMA within the ATA, or is it called ATA Xtreme?

I don't really know what the ATA calls it. It hasn't hit my region yet. Personally I feel XMA has no place in a "traditional" martial art. As an instructor I am supposed to help train the minds and bodys of my students not only so they have the tools to defend themselves, but the tools to succeed in life. I am NOT supposed to train them to be movie stars.

Honestly, even if the ATA wants to make it a totally seperate thing from the ATA curriculum, I think it is counter-productive. We are supposed to teach things like humility, yet we are teaching young students to be flashy, show off, and we are training their bodies to do techniques in such a way that will not work on the street. Other people see awesome technicians performing gravity-defying stuents. I see young people going around pretending to be tough, angry, and just yelling a lot.

Sorry to rant about that. XMA in the ATA is something I feel strongly about and, well, you accidently opened the can.

 

[Mark70Z]

Shu: Actually that's what I "thought" you would feel about the XMA within the ATA. Just from reading your posts I received that impression. I don't know why Taekwondo within the ATA can't stand on it's own as a MA, but I guess that's just not going to happen. What does your senior feel about the XMA and what happens when it does hit your region? Do you feel like this is just a money making idea? I just don't see how you can be proficient in traditional taekwondo and XMA at the same time...

Had one more question about the ATA uniform. It's starting to look like a billboard, with all types of patches, and stripes. Where will it stop? Are the pants going to be used as billboards next? Also, I'm sorry to say this but the XMA uniform looks like my moms quilt...(by the way, my mom's quilt is UGLY).

 

[Mark70Z]

Oh...one more thing Shu. Did you happen to view the XMA website, under What is XMA?, and watch the video. It has Mr. Clark talking about the XMA, and shows the ATA kids in an XMA class or probably a seminar. May want to view to see why they have it within the ATA.

 

[Shu2jack]

What does your senior feel about the XMA and what happens when it does hit your region? Do you feel like this is just a money making idea? I just don't see how you can be proficient in traditional taekwondo and XMA at the same time...

I am not too sure what my instructor feels about the program, I have never asked about it due to lack of interest. I think it is possible to do both, but I think it is counter-productive to a developing student. People like Mr. Chat are old enough, talented enough, and have in the martial arts long enough to seperate XMA from fighting. A 11 year old isn't. A color belt is still trying to develop good basic technique, so why mess that up with XMA technique?

I am not sure if it is just a money thing. Before our late Grand Master died from cancer, he wanted our organization to help people accomplish some things. Maybe XMA is part of it.

Had one more question about the ATA uniform. It's starting to look like a billboard, with all types of patches, and stripes. Where will it stop? Are the pants going to be used as billboards next? Also, I'm sorry to say this but the XMA uniform looks like my moms quilt...(by the way, my mom's quilt is UGLY).

I do wish the ATA would standardize ALL of the patches. They are supposed to signify certifcations in certain things, but some schools go over board. I personally would be happy with just the instructor collar, judging certifcation, and organization patch.

Oh...one more thing Shu. Did you happen to view the XMA website, under What is XMA?, and watch the video. It has Mr. Clark talking about the XMA, and shows the ATA kids in an XMA class or probably a seminar. May want to view to see why they have it within the ATA.

Do you have the web address?

 

[Matt]

OK. Let's try this on for perspective. McDonalds holds a burger contest. Invites only other McDonalds from, say, Minnesota. The winner of the contest claims to have made the best burger in the state in a public way. McDonalds is the governing body of the contest AND owns ALL of the stores allowed to participate. The rubes then are led to believe that for all they know Wendys, Hardees, etc. attended and lost. Deceptive marketing for rubes 101. The USTU, AAU, etc. (Who don't own schools by the way) would be compared to a burger governing body that allows others besides McD's (Wendys, etc.) to compete for the championship. Now am I explaining my point a little better? It's fraudulent behavior. If I owned 10 schools and held a tournament for only THOSE schools and then advertised that one of my students was STATE or WORLD CHAMPION, someone legit should hand my @ss to me in my trophy cup.

white belt

Yes, these situations occur any time there is a 'closed tournament'. For example, hypothetically, say a baseball organization made up of franchises, holds a tournament, but only teams from that league can enter. Say the season leads up to a final set of games, let's call it the 'world series' for argument's sake, and the team that wins prints up a bunch of merchandise proclaiming themselves 'world champion', even though the league includes only the United States and Canada. Are they commiting fraud? When was the last time a Brazilian or Japanese team was ever even invited to play in the playoffs, much less won the world series.

Even if you win the aau, does that constitute 'world championness'? How about the UFC? Is that a better measure? What are we measuring?

Matt

 

[Mark70Z]

It's www.xmaevolution.com and then What is XMA? I think with MA you can train your whole life; with the XMA it's not that way. I think once a person is in their mid 20's or so you'll have to give it up. Not too many older individuals will be able to do flips and such once they get a bit older. I'd like to get your view on why you think it's counter productive? Don't they use MA techniques, or do they alter them also?

I'm with you, the gi's should be standardized. Just another personal opinion...it's my view that the State Champion, National Champion, and World Champion should not be posted on the back of the gi. I personally take it as kind of bragging, and just self glorification. Isn't it enough to accomplish those awards instead of posting it for all to see. It lacks a bit of humility in my view.

I understand there are negatives to any organization. I'd just like to see the ATA make their perception better, and have the view of other MAist being more positive. It's my view that they need to improve a lot of things, but it's possible if they don't let the money get in their way.

 

[Shu2jack]

I'd like to get your view on why you think it's counter productive? Don't they use MA techniques, or do they alter them also?

I think the idea of XMA is counter-productive to a traditional art. We teach student humility and not to show off, yet what is XMA? Showing off flashy moves for show. A traditional martial art should be something anyone can do for life, yet XMA is something that not everyone can do and those who can will not be doing it forever. I have no problem with XMA in itself, but I don't think Traditional and XMA is a good mix.

As for altering techniques, I am not sure if they do. I have heard all they do is take "regular" technique and make it "dynamic". I also find that counter-productive to a traditional art. If you are still young to TKD, then you need to focus on proper techinque. If you are a young person I want to make sure you don't mix up good technique with show. Besides that, they won't be able to do all those fancy techniques in a decade or so, not that you would use them outside the dojo anyway.

I'm with you, the gi's should be standardized. Just another personal opinion...it's my view that the State Champion, National Champion, and World Champion should not be posted on the back of the gi. I personally take it as kind of bragging, and just self glorification. Isn't it enough to accomplish those awards instead of posting it for all to see. It lacks a bit of humility in my view.

I am on the fence with the championship uniforms. I personally wouldn't wear one because I would just feel weird and I know that everyone would be gunning for me. Not that I am anywhere close to the top of the standings to worry about it anyhow. I have no problem with others wearing the uniform because I think it is an accomplishment worth recognition.

Thanks for the link btw!

 

[TigerWoman]

I think humility in a martial artist is one of the most admirable traits, way above a contest award. The other being integrity. But, true humility is truly an accomplishment that is hard to achieve. Pride is the direct opposite.

I met a gentlemen in an audience of a tournament (WTF) and had a really nice chat. He was very open, very friendly, very down-to-earth. When we donned our uniforms, I was surprised to learn he was a 6th dan. I guess he put the "grand" into what I think a grandmaster would be. I respected him much more than the uniform he put on. Further embellishments are not necessary. Those that do put those on only cheapen themselves by having to exclaim "I'm a champion" in my opinion. A champion of a lesser value, pride. TW