Scruples

[white belt]

Anyone here see or have a problem with the following? A website for a TKD school/s where the Instructor has posted a State or National 1st place title and they don't attend USTU or AAU competitions.

white belt

 

[Zepp]

In my book, claiming a competition title you didn't compete for is worse than claiming a rank you didn't earn.

Care to give us a link to the site?

Edit: I agree with TW below. We really do need more info. to make the call. But to speak generally, what you seem to have described is fraud.

 

[TigerWoman]

Not enough information. How do you know he doesn't have the title? He could have competed long ago and now doesn't go to state and national tournaments possibly if he has no eligible (good) students...have you asked him? Does he have certification from USTU- a WTF dan rank? Only masters-4th dans can test and promote students according to the WTF/USTU rules. So, :idunno: TW

 

[white belt]

Put "Stellhorn ATA" in your search engine and see if you can pull up a school headed by a Ms. Beddow for one. She claims STATE AND WORLD titles. Saw some Mcdojang claims posted about ATA schools in other threads and I finally got curious. Heard some firsthand negatives around the Midwest about ATA but this is bordering on spitting in the direction of WTF, ITF and AAU legit titleholders. Not good press for good TKD.

whitebelt

 

[Zepp]

From www.stellhornata.com:

Chief Instructor
Ms. Penny Beddow
4th Degree Black Belt

[email protected]

Regional Chief of Publications 2001, 2002
World Silver Medal – Sparring 1997
World Top Ten – 95, 96, 97, 99, 01, 02
State Champ 2001, 2002
Protech Certified – SSJB, DSJB, SBME, DBME, Mid Range JB, Long Range JB, Knife Defense
Coventry Taekwondo - Opened December 1997

Doesn't say where her titles were earned. It's possible that these "World" and "State" competitions were within the ATA. If that's true, then it's not fraud afterall. (She still might be running another ATA McDojang, but that's a different issue.)

Unless there's some evidence you've found that indicates she's claiming to have won tournaments in other organizations... Haven't seen anything concrete yet...

 

[TigerWoman]

If she's ATA she wouldn't be a USTU member or attending their events. TW

I went to the AAU site, first time I saw that - a 1st dan at 8 yrs. old with 30 months of training-2-1/2 yrs.!! I could have been a 4th dan by now! NOT!

Dan Level
Min. Time Between
Total Combined
Minimum Age

1st Dan
30 Months
*--
8 Years Old

2nd Dan
1 Years
3.5 Years
10 Years Old

3rd Dan
2 Years
5.5 Years
13 Years Old

4th Dan
3 Years
8.5 Years
16 Years Old

5th Dan
4 Years
12.5 Years
20 Years Old

6th Dan
5 Years
17.5 Years
25 Years Old

7th Dan
6 Years
23.5 Years
31 Years Old

8th and 9th Dan
7 - 8 Years
*
38-39 Years Old

 

[white belt]

OK. Let's try this on for perspective. McDonalds holds a burger contest. Invites only other McDonalds from, say, Minnesota. The winner of the contest claims to have made the best burger in the state in a public way. McDonalds is the governing body of the contest AND owns ALL of the stores allowed to participate. The rubes then are led to believe that for all they know Wendys, Hardees, etc. attended and lost. Deceptive marketing for rubes 101. The USTU, AAU, etc. (Who don't own schools by the way) would be compared to a burger governing body that allows others besides McD's (Wendys, etc.) to compete for the championship. Now am I explaining my point a little better? It's fraudulent behavior. If I owned 10 schools and held a tournament for only THOSE schools and then advertised that one of my students was STATE or WORLD CHAMPION, someone legit should hand my @ss to me in my trophy cup.

white belt

 

[Zepp]

Now am I explaining my point a little better?

Crystal clear.

Yes, that's absolutely fraudulent behavior on the part of the ATA. I thought you were talking about Ms. Beddow in particular. I don't think we can really blame these paper champions, since most of them are probably also rubes.

It's sad and pathetic, but what can we really do about it? (Besides bring it up here?) I don't think the USTU, AAU, WTF, ITF, or other organizations have a legal recourse here in U.S. on this matter. But maybe I'm wrong.

 

[TigerWoman]

Yes, thank you, I had already gotten the picture. Champions of a limited pool and from what time the ranks require, not enough training IMO. Anybody can call themselves a black belt and anybody can call themselves a champion too- it doesn't take a tournament of same trained people. BTW, the AAU people who do come to our open tournaments do not do as well generally. TW

 

[TX_BB]

You can look at boxing and it's associations or even universities and their associations to see that all organizations and titles are not the same.

What it comes down to is what the public accepts as good competition and the willingness to accept outside challangers to their arena.

USTU, AAU, WTF AND ITF are pretty open organizations, they have their rules but going from one to the other is not that huge of an obstacle.

Endorsements from other renowed sports organizations (Olympic status, Pan American...) also lend to air of crediblity.

Me, I'm particularrly hard to impress if you don't have an Olympic Gold Medal, a couple World Championships where you needed to fight 5 or more matches. I'll probably say good for you for that tornament.

The only thing that any competion award shows me is that you have the courage to test yourself in front of your peers and that you prevailed.

It's always comes down to the person and that person talent and dedication.

 

[Shu2jack]

Sorry to chime in, but I personally know Ms. Penny Beddow and I feel the need to speak in her defense, since I feel she is being attacked with out her being here to defend her name.

Ms. Beddow earned her titles in the ATA. I have also had the privilege of sparring her and discuss various topics regarding the ATA and TKD in general. I find her to be a competent instructor, strict on her students, and a serious martial artist.

In a 300,000 member organization Ms. Beddow had to place in 5 regional tournaments, our World tournament, and a National tournament AND have the 10th most points in the entire organization for her competition division before she could compete against those 9 other "Top Ten" people for the title. While she did not compete against other TKD people from outside her organization, there is nothing stopping people outside the ATA from joining the organization and competiting. Most schools will allow you to keep your rank you previously earned outside the ATA.

Yes, it is a closed competition that she earned her titles in. Personally, I don't see what is wrong with it. I have gone to a few open tournaments and personally find closed tournaments to be ran to a higher standard, no offense to the other organizations. While our tournaments are open to the public, we do not tout our competitors as the best in the World and anyone attending our tournaments would easily see that they are all from the same organization. Ask anyone who earned the title and they won't make any false claims on where they earned it. No deception involved.

 

[NW Boiler]

Well said Shu2jack!!

 

[white belt]

When the ATA credentials such as "State" or "World Champion" are from an OPEN governing body (IOC, USTU, AAU, etc.) who is NOT ATA owned, you won't have to defend the credibility of such claims. It's that simple.

"Standing in fertilizer won't help the nut become a mighty oak any sooner"-David Carradine...or was it Richard Simmons?

white belt

 

[NW Boiler]

When the ATA credentials such as "State" or "World Champion" are from an OPEN governing body (IOC, USTU, AAU, etc.) who is NOT ATA owned, you won't have to defend the credibility of such claims. It's that simple.

"Standing in fertilizer won't help the nut become a mighty oak any sooner"-David Carradine...or was it Richard Simmons?

white belt

Just my humble opinion here. No one that know within the ATA feels the need to defend there credentials, they are their credentials and they have earned them. It is only those outside of the organization that feel the need to take pot shots and criticize. In my life experience, those that feel the need to take pot shots and criticize others (in most cases) are insecure with themselves and what they are doing in life. It is an indiivuals right to choose. If we all agreed, life would be very mundane. Maybe rather than worrying about what everyone else is doing and thinking, those that are concerned should focus more on their own life experiences.

Again just my humble opinion.

 

[TigerWoman]

Thank you for clarifying Mrs. Beddow's position for White Belt. No disrespect intended. I only know of ATA by who has competed in our tournaments. Those that put years of serious training into martial arts deserve respect for their accomplishment and dedication no matter what organization they may or not belong to. TW

 

[Shu2jack]

When the ATA credentials such as "State" or "World Champion" are from an OPEN governing body (IOC, USTU, AAU, etc.) who is NOT ATA owned, you won't have to defend the credibility of such claims. It's that simple.

I am not defending the crediability. I am defending Mrs. Beddow and clarifying how she earned her title. Frankly, I don't want a open governing body over our tournaments. If I want to compete outside the ATA, the ATA has no problem with it. If a black belt outside the organization wants to compete in our tournaments, then they can join our organization with their current rank, learn the Songham form for their level, learn our rules and customs, and compete.

If you don't like what the ATA does, that is fine. I'll concern myself with my own training and development and you can concern youself with yours. If you want to attack my training and accomplishments, that is fine. Don't attack one of my seniors or her accomplishments without her knowing it in a anonymous forum. If you have a problem with her, send her an e-mail. If you have a problem with the organization, send our HQ a e-mail and they will be happy to discuss our policys.

"Standing in fertilizer won't help the nut become a mighty oak any sooner"-David Carradine...or was it Richard Simmons?

Nor does spewing....fertilizer....help a nut, tree, oak, what ever, grow.

 

[white belt]

People who are familiar with the truth will always make known those who fabricate. It's called a "conscience". The other ATA related threads on this forum are what pointed me toward looking up what all the negativity was about. I investigated on my own before I passed judgement.

Miss whoever, Fred Flintstone, Phil in the Blank, etc. could all be very nice people. They might even bake me a cake. When they ADVERTIZE falsehoods on the internet, and someone like me spills the beans, they have VICTIMIZED THEMSELVES for taking the risk of getting caught. If they claim ignorance to intentional wrongdoing, it still does not validate the initial claims or justify making those claims.

IOC,USOC,USTU, AAU. The WTF (Korea) formed the USTU in the U.S. from the already assembled AAU TKD program. The USOC then eventually recognized the USTU as THE NATIONAL GOVERNING BODY FOR ALL ELITE TKD COMPETITORS REGARDLESS OF WHO OWNS THE SCHOOL OR SYSTEM! The AAU kept part of their base, steadily rebuilt it, and are continually working at reasserting themselves for eventual consultation status (on par with the USTU from which it was formed) within the USOC concerning STATE, NATIONAL AND OLYMPIC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS. The ATA and other such "franchise" organizations keep away from these open organizations because it jeapordizes their efforts at monopolizing a segment of the commercial marketplace. McDonalds can't truthfully claim WORLD CHAMPION HAMBURGER status if it holds the championship and invites only restaurants OWNED BY McDONALDS. This is why the NATIONAL GOVERNING BODY is "OPEN" and not "OWNED". If the N.G.B. were owned by a franchiser, it would be in common legal terms called a "potential conflict of interest" and subject to extreme bias. If the N.G.B. were a franchise as well, and only allowed ITS schools in the Olympics, etc. I don't have to tell anybody how corrupt that would be. The aforementioned IOC, USOC, etc. allows the TRUE "NATIONAL" or "WORLD CHAMPIONS" to step forward regardless of what school they own or train in.

All of what I just explained is common knowledge and public record to those who have taken the time to investigate the current competitive structure within the U.S.A. The bad franchises steer their prospects away from seeking out this info. to protect their intere$t$. It's Amway style marketing run amok in an expensive Dobok.

Look at the other ATA threads, I am not alone in this perspective. If you got a bad haircut, don't blame the freakin' mirror pal!

Whheeeeeeee!!!!........I mean kia!, etc.
white belt

 

[NW Boiler]

I am curious. Have personally ever set foot in an ATA Dojang, or had a chance to converse with an ATA instructor. Or do you believe all that you read and take it for truth. I am in no way kicking anyone here, but rather than take anything at face value, I would suggest that you truely do your homework and have first hand knowledge. If in fact you have, than so be it! You are most intitled to you opinion and I for one respect that.

However, I would suggest toning down the attitude, it is most unbecoming!

 

[Shu2jack]

People who are familiar with the truth will always make known those who fabricate. It's called a "conscience". The other ATA related threads on this forum are what pointed me toward looking up what all the negativity was about. I investigated on my own before I passed judgement.

I highly suggest you investigate further by seeking more than internet opinion and looking at one or two ATA schools. I also suggest you become greatly familiar with our tournament ranking system, our internal structure, our policys, and our instructors before you pass judgement.

Miss whoever, Fred Flintstone, Phil in the Blank, etc. could all be very nice people. They might even bake me a cake. When they ADVERTIZE falsehoods on the internet, and someone like me spills the beans, they have VICTIMIZED THEMSELVES for taking the risk of getting caught. If they claim ignorance to intentional wrongdoing, it still does not validate the initial claims or justify making those claims.

Someone like you spill the beans? I also suggest that you get over yourself. There was nothing false about Ms. Beddow's or any other instructor's claims. In a competition open to ATA, WTTU, and STF members in various countries Ms. Beddow and other instructors beat out the competition and earned our title. Not your title. Not ITF's title. Not the olympic title. But the title for our organizations, using our set rules, judged by our certified judges, using our curriculum. She won OUR World Title. The Olympics have their own world champion titles and your organizations have their world titles.

IOC,USOC,USTU, AAU. The WTF (Korea) formed the USTU in the U.S. from the already assembled AAU TKD program. The USOC then eventually recognized the USTU as THE NATIONAL GOVERNING BODY FOR ALL ELITE TKD COMPETITORS REGARDLESS OF WHO OWNS THE SCHOOL OR SYSTEM! The AAU kept part of their base, steadily rebuilt it, and are continually working at reasserting themselves for eventual consultation status (on par with the USTU from which it was formed) within the USOC concerning STATE, NATIONAL AND OLYMPIC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS.
The ATA and other such "franchise" organizations keep away from these open organizations because it jeapordizes their efforts at monopolizing a segment of the commercial marketplace. McDonalds can't truthfully claim WORLD CHAMPION HAMBURGER status if it holds the championship and invites only restaurants OWNED BY McDONALDS. This is why the NATIONAL GOVERNING BODY is "OPEN" and not "OWNED". If the N.G.B. were owned by a franchiser, it would be in common legal terms called a "potential conflict of interest" and subject to extreme bias. If the N.G.B. were a franchise as well, and only allowed ITS schools in the Olympics, etc. I don't have to tell anybody how corrupt that would be. The aforementioned IOC, USOC, etc. allows the TRUE "NATIONAL" or "WORLD CHAMPIONS" to step forward regardless of what school they own or train in.

Look, I am not going to argue this whole thing out with you. There are lots of other little points I would love to touch on. We are getting in a heated discussion over a title, a pretty trophy, and a fancy certificate. Your governing body recognizes who they recognize. They hold their competitions and give out their titles. Our organization feels we are better off governing ourselves and we will hold our own competitions and give out our titles.

Why are your titles more valid than ours? ANYONE can compete in our tournaments just like ANYONE can compete in yours. We just require more out of competitors outside of being able to spar. I have watched the Olympic TKD sparring. I find it to be a joke. I don't want a title in that method of sparring or system. For the most part I like the ATA's system and I wouldn't mind earning a title in the system.

You need to remember that TKD is not just one system. It is many different systems. Just like how Karate organizations, UFC, Pride, boxing, K-1, etc., etc., each have their own ways of fighting, own systems, and own titles, different TKD organzations who have different ways of doing things will have their own titles. The USTU is recognized by a great many people. They will compete by their rules and system and pass out titles to the champions of their system. Thats is excellent. The ATA has it's own rules and system and will hand out titles to the champions of their system. You have World champions for the world champions of your system. We have World champions for the world champions of our system.

So I ask you again, why is our title less valid? Because you don't like the ATA? Because you don't like "closed" tournaments? Because you like to pick a fight? Because you see others picking on a organization and you wanted to take a swing too?

All of what I just explained is common knowledge and public record to those who have taken the time to investigate the current competitive structure within the U.S.A. The bad franchises steer their prospects away from seeking out this info. to protect their intere$t$. It's Amway style marketing run amok in an expensive Dobok.

Right.....

Look at the other ATA threads, I am not alone in this perspective. If you got a bad haircut, don't blame the freakin' mirror pal!

Apparently the majority of the country is also against same-sex civil unions and marriage to the point they are willing to take away other's civil liberities and allow the government to tell the churchs who they can and can not marry.

I did not say this with they intent of starting a political debate, but I just want to illistrate the point that what is a bad hair cut is a matter of opinion and that other people are willing to tear down others because they do not like what they are doing.

I ain't blaming the mirror. I like my hair cut and you remind me of the school bully who is just going around being a jerk.

 

[Zepp]

In a competition open to ATA, WTTU, and STF members in various countries Ms. Beddow and other instructors beat out the competition and earned our title. Not your title. Not ITF's title. Not the olympic title. But the title for our organizations, using our set rules, judged by our certified judges, using our curriculum. She won OUR World Title. The Olympics have their own world champion titles and your organizations have their world titles.

That's the whole point. When these ATA championships are listed on websites under instructors' credentials, it's not mentioned anywhere that they are ATA championships.

I like my hair cut and you remind me of the school bully who is just going around being a jerk.

You're right Shu2jack, this disscussion is getting heated. Let's try to avoid getting this thread locked down if we can.