Scraping Hoof

[jfarnsworth]

I'm posting this to see if we can spark some interest and/or exchange ideas on this technique. All change-ups, variations, and such are all welcome.

SCRAPING HOOF (full nelson)
1. Step your left foot towards 9 o’clock (into a modified horse) strike directly backward with both of your fists towards the attacker’s face.
2. While still in a full Nelson, thrust both of your fists toward the ground as you straighten your knees, back and neck.
3. Immediately bend your left knee as you deliver a right back side heel kick to opponent's left inside knee. Then with the knife-edge of your right foot, kick to opponent's right side of knee, shin and scrape the shin on the way down and stomp the opponent's right instep with the heel of your right foot.
4. Repeat the same process on the left side remembering to utilize the principle of gravitational marriage while executing both of your stomps.
5. Front crossover cover out towards 10:30.

 

[ob2c]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
SCRAPING HOOF (full nelson)
1. Step your left foot towards 9 o’clock (into a modified horse) strike directly backward with both of your fists towards the attacker’s face.

I originally learned this as a double center knuckle strike to his metacarpals, then step out as you...

2. While still in a full Nelson, thrust both of your fists toward the ground as you straighten your knees, back and neck.

I learned that the head strikes back to help break the hold and possibly get a strike to the face, or maybe at least a reaction.

3. Immediately bend your left knee as you deliver a right back side heel kick to opponent's left inside knee. Then with the knife-edge of your right foot, kick to opponent's right side of knee, shin and scrape the shin on the way down and stomp the opponent's right instep with the heel of your right foot.
4. Repeat the same process on the left side remembering to utilize the principle of gravitational marriage while executing both of your stomps.

I was told that one of the main reasons for the kick and scraping stomp to both legs is that, due to position of his feet, you may not get all the strikes in good. May miss some all together. If you do miss, just keep going.

Also, I originally learned this technique with an extra move here. The left arm continues to pin, but the right releases as you reach across with your right hand and grab his right wrist with your palm up. Now step around front to 9:00 with your right foot, levering his right arm back over your pinning arm and take him over backwards to the ground.

5. Front crossover cover out towards 10:30.

If you take him down, it is much more fun to stay and stomp on him .

One other point I saw someone make at a seminar (if I could remember his name I'd give him credit). On the pin, the muscles that do most of the work are very short. You can see them stand out just above the triceps when someone does this move. So position of the arms is critical on the pin. You have to thrust straight down and the fists must end up just in front of the outside edge of your thighs in order to break and pin correctly. He demonstrated on a short, stout brown belt. He first had the guy do it wrong a few times, and each time he easily pulled out of the pin. Then he had the guy do it right and hold the pin. He pulled and pulled, and then picked the guy up and shook and spun him. But the hold held.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Maybe we should ask what the purpose of a full nelson is. So, what is it? Oh sure, the answer is "to control you," but then the next question would be, how do they plan to control you.

A Full Nelson serves as either a means to pick you up, fold you over, or hold you while someone else kicks the crap out of you. Now if your in the two man situation and you do this tech, You're screwed. If you allow them to pick you up, which seems to follow the old adage of what goes up must come down, you are probably about to get face planted (actually when I saw this happen it was the bouncer who was doing the lifting, sweeping, and planting). If you allow them to crank the head downward into your chest, then it's just about over.

I would suggest that you straighten your back and kick your head back hard, roll your shoulders forward and fire your hands not straight down but at about a 30 degree angle off your legs.

I won't get into it here, but I hate the grab from behind techniques. Everybody seems to teach them as the end result, uuuuuhh someone grabbed me...... scary. When they are more likely to be followed by one of the three scenarios I mentioned above.

If you take him down, it is much more fun to stay and stomp on him .
[/qoute]

I've got a stack of Cat Scan printouts of broken faces because someone thought it would be fun to stay and stomp. Most of these people required several surgeries and thousands and thousands of dollars in medical treatment (hell the Cat Scan alone was about 5 grand). It's great that you are having fun, but let's try to keep things in perspective.

 

[ob2c]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo I've got a stack of Cat Scan printouts of broken faces because someone thought it would be fun to stay and stomp. Most of these people required several surgeries and thousands and thousands of dollars in medical treatment (hell the Cat Scan alone was about 5 grand). It's great that you are having fun, but let's try to keep things in perspective.

I stand corrected. (Unless you are training to follow up, or it is 'That Kind of Fight')

Maybe we should ask what the purpose of a full nelson is...

Yes, and what you said about it is true. You raise some interesting points, and realistically it would be good to train the technique with these applications you mention. It's one reason I like the center knuckle strikes to the backs of his hands. You allways know where they are without looking, and they are allways available, no matter what else he's doing.

The technique is usually drilled so that you react before the lock occurs and the first double strike is deleted, which is ideal for many obviouse reasons. But if it does lock, you need to know how to break it.

In a single attacker scenario I still prefer to run this technique prety much as written, if possible. If you thrust your arms out at @30', you may break the hold. But you still have an uncontroled opponent behind you.

Head butts- they are great if they work. But I once did a sort of a study on them. I had people grab me from behind like they would if they meant it without telling them what I was doing. Not surprisingly, I didn't get a single 'dojo style' grab with the feet planted square and the head behind me in position to get butted. Nothing wrong with trying it, but don't count on a solid hit, and you'll probably have to angle the head strike to get anything at all. They do tend to get a reaction, though. He'll probably move it, which will have some effect on his ballance, though who knows how much.

With more than one opponent, and assuming you get this before he locks the hold, I'd delete the center knuckle strikes and the kicks and go straight to the arm bar. But instead of taking him down, continue to move around behind him and use him as a shield. Just one possibility. Who can say where the dynamics of a fight will take you. The point is that these techniques weren't meant to be run verbatim each time. They can be modified any number of ways depending on the situation.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
I'm posting this to see if we can spark some interest and/or exchange ideas on this technique. All change-ups, variations, and such are all welcome.

SCRAPING HOOF (full nelson)
1. Step your left foot towards 9 o’clock (into a modified horse) strike directly backward with both of your fists towards the attacker’s face.
2. While still in a full Nelson, thrust both of your fists toward the ground as you straighten your knees, back and neck.
3. Immediately bend your left knee as you deliver a right back side heel kick to opponent's left inside knee. Then with the knife-edge of your right foot, kick to opponent's right side of knee, shin and scrape the shin on the way down and stomp the opponent's right instep with the heel of your right foot.
4. Repeat the same process on the left side remembering to utilize the principle of gravitational marriage while executing both of your stomps.
5. Front crossover cover out towards 10:30.

I learned it the same way with the exception of a few things.

1: after bringing the arms down, follow up with the head butt.

2: dont do the kicks again with the left leg, only the right.

IMO, I think that this tech works best prior to the completion of the actual grab. I would think that it would be very hard to do much of anything if the person grabbing has you in the hold. Actually, I would think that as soon as you feel the hands coming around, forget about the first strike and just pin his arms. By bringing your arms up, it might aid the attacker in getting a better hold on you.

Mike

 

[jfarnsworth]

I'm not sure why the headbutt wasn't in the description but I'll add it in now. Kind of weird but I thought I went over each tech. 1 by 1. Oh well.

I do like the discussion of the original full nelson grab. Does anyone train with the idea of picking you up, folding you over, or maybe someone will step in front of one of your legs to throw you down on the floor face first? Kind of curious because I've practiced it as bending forward only to a certain point and picking you up.

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by MJS
I learned it the same way with the exception of a few things.

1: after bringing the arms down, follow up with the head butt.

2: dont do the kicks again with the left leg, only the right.

IMO, I think that this tech works best prior to the completion of the actual grab. I would think that it would be very hard to do much of anything if the person grabbing has you in the hold. Actually, I would think that as soon as you feel the hands coming around, forget about the first strike and just pin his arms. By bringing your arms up, it might aid the attacker in getting a better hold on you.

Mike

I like , and always teach what you said in the last paragraph. :asian:

 

[ob2c]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Does anyone train with the idea of picking you up, folding you over, or maybe someone will step in front of one of your legs to throw you down on the floor face first?

I have trained it with several different moves like this, though not for some time. If he gets the lock, you sometimes just get slammed, bounced, rammed, or whatever he wants to do. The important thing is to stabilize your base as soon as possible- at least that's what I found. No base, no ballance, and no chance to counter. You could allways do the old grab a finger and peel, but then you are out of this technique. (Obviously this all assumes you've blown it and he got the hold applied.)

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by ob2c
I have trained it with several different moves like this, though not for some time. If he gets the lock, you sometimes just get slammed, bounced, rammed, or whatever he wants to do.

I'm too small to be bounced around by someone huge.

The important thing is to stabilize your base as soon as possible- at least that's what I found. No base, no ballance, and no chance to counter.

This is why I'm waiting for Dr. Chapel to give his insight into this.

You could allways do the old grab a finger and peel, but then you are out of this technique.

Yes, Ripping on fingers will work in almost any situation & don't forget finger thrusts to the eyes.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Seems you guys forget there are three techniques that deal with this type of attack.

Scraping Hoof -If you keep your arms down they can't get them up to your head and neck, that's the design of the tech.

Repeated Devastation- designed so if they manage to get your arms up they feed the strikes to the eyes or head.

Twirling Sacrifice- designed so if they manage to get you in the full nelson and start to pull you down.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Michael Billings]

When you step to the left, push the left heel out a little, so the left toes point closer to 1:30. This allows your hips to rotate clockwise a little further without binding. The force of the heel kick is much stronger and you get a buckle even when you miss the left knee.

Initial move: If bringing arms down in front of you, I like to insert the head butt, after the attempted strike back to their face. The arms going forward definitly put more of a strain on your own neck, even when you thrust back and up with your head. If the grip has loosened then this technique is very effective, and you have pre-positioned the hips to execute a rear heel hook kick with the same force, as provided through rotation, that you get when executing Captured Twigs. I also use the same step here so as you rotate to the cat stance, you have more torque.

If the grip does not loosen then I like to strike back and down with the elbows to their biceps (as in Repeated Devastation) ... think of a wide lat pulldown. The leverage points change and it pulls their arms away laterally, hence the fingers, which are attached ... go with the arms, out and away.

In re-reading this, it is clear as mud, unless you have done it, it may seem awkward ... but it is actually easier by pre-configuing the stance, you have anatomically positioned yourself for more power structurally.

I know ... I know, "Feeling is believing." I have felt it done on me, and done it on my students, so I know this works, just not sure how clear I am explaining.

-MB

 

[Michael Billings]

Not sure if everyone has all these to see the progression however, so I did not address the "Attemptedness" of Scraping Hoof. Not everyone learns it this way.

 

[MartialArtsGuy]

I remember a time, a few years ago, when this guy put me in a full nelson, we were in a fight and his intent was to control me.

Anyway, he was a few inches taller than me and no matter what technique I tried, I could not get out of it at all.


I finally got out because I realized the lockers behind me had jagged edges sticking out. (the lock thing) Well, being that he was behind me, I kept ramming his back into these jagged metal things untill he let go to tend to his wounds or whatever he let go for. I then ran like hell.

Man that guy was strong. I dont think I could have stopped him from locking it in. He was just too strong.

Freakish strength is a scary thing. My little brother is a state champ power lifter and when we wrestle or spar, I have to keep my distance because if he grabs me, it's over. It's like being stuck in a vice. I have 50lbs & 5 inches on him and he throws me around like a rag doll.

I think it's possible to out grapple someone stronger than you, using your own strength and good technique, but there just comes a time that if someones strength is just too much, theres little you can do but go for soft targets.

I hope no one here ever has to deal with anyone like that. It's like going hand to hand with the terminator.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Scraping Hoof -If you keep your arms down they can't get them up to your head and neck, that's the design of the tech.

Repeated Devastation- designed so if they manage to get your arms up they feed the strikes to the eyes or head.

Twirling Sacrifice- designed so if they manage to get you in the full nelson and start to pull you down.

Just so everyone can be on the same page.

Scraping hoof- See Above

From www.kenponet.com
Repeated Devastation (Full Nelson)
1. An attacker at 6 o'clock grabs you in a full nelson.

2. Step your right foot to 3 o'clock into a narrow horse stance as you strike over and back of your head with both of your hands, putting fingers in your attacker's face and loosening the grip.

3. Utilize marriage of gravity and drop into a horse stance as you execute two outward overhead elbows to your attacker's biceps. Immediately thrust both fists towards the ground as you straighten your body. Note: This should break their grip and the thrust should pin your attacker's arms against your body.

From kenponet
Twirling Sacrifice (Full Nelson)
1. An attacker at 6 o'clock puts you in a full nelson.

2. Stiffen your body and force your neck back. (This will cause your attacker to concentrate on keeping your head forward.) Take advantage of this by stepping your right foot to 3 o'clock into a horse stance facing 12 o'clock.

3. Slide your left to your right into a transitional cat stance. Immediately step your left foot to 7:30 behind your attacker's right leg. As you bend over borrowing your attacker's force, have your arms directly grab to the back of your attacker's knees. (Right to right, left to left).

4. Turn counterclockwise as you lift your attacker's legs off the ground. You will step your left foot to 4:30 followed by your right foot to 6 o'clock followed by your left to 7:30.

5. Cross out to 1:30. Note: There is a reason this is nicknamed the Nothing Technique.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Now admittedly I don't know Twirling Sacrifice, but I have a hard time believing that while you are being folded like a pretzel that you would be able to step behind your opponent and grab his legs. The only reason I say this is because I've had training partners do this to me and their is no way I could have stepped behind them to grab their leg. With some grabs you could do a forward roll and trap the leg, but I don't think you could do this against a full nelson.

Maybe someone with more experience would care to comment

 

[ob2c]

JF, "I'm too small to be bounced around by someone huge."

I'm small too, and if he gets the lock, sometimes doo-doo occurs. Like MAG said, "It's like going hand to hand with the terminator" when someone bigger and stronger gets control on you.

MB, those were some good details you listed!

PK, could you explain some about Twirling Sacrifice? How does it work if the attacker is bigger/stronger than you and if he moves his feet so that you don't get leverage for the grab? Also, he may not bend you over far enough to allow a good grab.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Now admittedly I don't know Twirling Sacrifice, but I have a hard time believing that while you are being folded like a pretzel that you would be able to step behind your opponent and grab his legs.

Or possibly the attacker has stepped in front of yours to shove you face down into something. I personally like Twirling Sacrifice much better than I do Repeated Devestation because I think T.S. is a much more realistic technique.

 

[don bohrer]

I would add this thought on Full Nelson and Twirling Sacrifice. When you drop the elbows (wide lat pull down as MB put it) trap your opponents arms by pinning with your arms. This adds a measure of control and allows you time to gather your wits. This has worked for me.

I have worked both these techs in the dojo and found them to work even againts stronger, bigger opponents. However if they've snatched me off the canvas I found myself in trouble. Once off the ground I tried to hook their leg with one of mine. A headbutt would work well here too. I don't know why my school doesn't teach it with one?

Getting your base and bending forward at the waist also helps prevent from being picked up. I like to think of it this way. It's easier to hold up a medicine ball while it's close to the bodies center. So bending at the waist moves your weight farther from the opponents center and makes it harder to be picked up.

Full Nelson A.
We do it the same except we punch up and away from our opponent to get full extension of the arms before dropping the elbows fast and hard. We do not incert a headbutt.

I hope it's not a bucktoothed red neck that ever grabs me. If his mouth looks like a can opener the back of my heads in trouble.

Twirling Sacrifice (Full Nelson B)
Instead of grabbing the leg we drive a left elbow into the opponents face to knock them over our leg, and hammer fist the groin as he topples over.

 

[Doc]

Well I have to side primarily with Kenpo Yahoo here in that he approaches the technique from the attacker’s perspective and examines intent first by asking the right questions. He states:

” . A Full Nelson serves as either a means to pick you up, fold you over, or hold you while someone else kicks the crap out of you.”

I might also add that it may be used to “move” or transport you to another rather immediate although secluded location, or to a vehicle with the possible assistance of additional attackers.

With this in mind, now we must determine how the assault will occur, and determine how to do what we call: “Survive the Initial Assault.” This includes, from a Sublevel Four Kenpo Perspective a mandate that the technique may not be practiced as an “attempt” under any circumstances.

There are those that suggest you should be “ready” and circumvent the attack before you are grabbed, but of course this precludes you from learning any extrication skills, which is the purpose of the exercise. I am not advocating that in reality you should wait to be grabbed, but to do otherwise in training is to practice swimming without getting wet. When the water hits your butt, it’s a completely different story. While it is true when you arms are down it is more difficult to apply a Full Nelson, anyone experienced enough to try it will probably utilize additional mechanisms to cause you to raise or lift your arms enough to make the attack possible. One that I have seen used on the street is a “friendly” slap to the back of the head causing a person to instinctively “shrug” their shoulders and bend their head forward raising their arms.

This technique also comes under the heading of what I call “Mugger Huggers.” This is important because the one element rarely accounted for in these techniques is assailant Body Momentum. Attacker’s move aggressively and surreptitiously to place you in a “full nelson,” therefore their body momentum is a factor. It was suggested further you must regain your balance first or forget the rest. This too is quite correct. When you are “bumped” you must move immediately to Survive The Initial Assault by:

1. Absorbing the momentum.
2. Regain/retain your balance.
3. Re-align your body creating “Positive Posture.”
4. Misalign your attacker’s body creating “Negative Posture.”

HOW this is accomplished must be physically taught. All of these things, once completed, will place you in position to counter the assault. If you cannot perform these four functions than you will in all probability fail to “Survive.” A note that “grabbing the fingers” is an almost impossible task because, when the nelson is applied properly, strength and mobility is removed from the arms and hands.

Next comes more specific footwork that I rarely have seen used, but was taught to me by Mr. Parker for this situation. The footwork is specialized and is called “Splitting and reverse Splitting.” When incorporated into this technique it resembles a “hop straddle hop,” or “jumping jack” movement. I in particular would like Mr. Billings to explore this in his interpretation of the technique.

When a “Mugger Hugger” attacks you and Body Momentum is factored in, stepping to one side without additional mechanisms becomes counter productive and virtually impossible to do and retain/regain balance.

Then the suggestion to:

“… straighten your back and kick your head back hard, roll your shoulders forward and fire your hands …”

I find quite correct, although the proper methodology must be physically taught as part of the “Survive The Initial Assault” component. The hands should go straight downward in front of the body, “rolling” and torquing your fist as if executing twin “inverted vertical punches” finishing with your thumbs pointing toward you, etc. SubLevel Four Kenpo Interpretations.

When executed properly, a person will be unable to sustain a full nelson assault with skeletal manipulation and alignment, even when you allow their hands to come together on the back of your neck.

11. SCRAPING HOOF:

ATTACK: Starting from behind your attacker at a moderate distance, bringing BODY MOMENTUM, quickly grab and apply a full nelson.

1. SURVIVE THE INITIAL ASSAULT of the full nelson and execute an OUTWARD SPLIT as you double punch or finger whip your attacker's face back over your shoulders.
STUDY PARTNER: This action will cause you to loosen your grip, and turn your head and lean backwards to avoid additional strikes.
2. Then REVERSE SPLIT as you thrust both of your fists toward the ground to break your attacker’s grip, and PIN his arms to your body. With this action, straighten your knees, back, and neck into a full upright position and backward head-butt your attacker's face.
STUDY PARTNER: This action will cause you to completely loose your grip, force your hands down, and they will be pinned to his body with his arms. The head butt will stun, as you are pulled off balance unable to move from being misaligned. PAUSE
3. Reach under his left arm and over his right and PIN both arms as you grab your attacker's right wrist with your left hand palm down.
STUDY PARTNER: This action will lock you to his body and you will be unable to move when it is done properly.
4. Turn your hips so they face toward 1:30. Then deliver a right back heel thrust kick to your attacker's left inner knee and plant with a PAM toward 1:30 in a forward bow. STUDY PARTNER: This action will severely sprain your left leg and cause your hips to move to the left. STOP PAUSE
5. Move your left foot to 1:30 into a forward bow stance. SLAP-CHECK BAM your left shoulder as you pivot back toward your attacker into a neutral bow facing 7:30, and strike the bend of his upper forearm with a right hammering fist, and BRUSH your forearm forward and down toward 6 o’clock..
STUDY PARTNER: This action will cause you to place all your weight on your right leg as your arm is driven downward, bringing your head down and turning to your right.
6. Pivot immediately into a right forward bow stance toward 7:30 as you execute a right outward elbow to your attacker's head, pulling your attacker's right hand with your left hand SEIZING the FIRE-RING.
STUDY PARTNER: This will force your head to your left and your knees to buckle, as your height, depth and width are controlled
7. Now punch into a forward bow stance to 1:30 and continue your momentum and cross out with your right foot to 1:30 and cover out facing your attacker on guard, and ALIGNMENT PAM your forward foot.
Timing & Breathing Signature: 12 P 34 P 5,67 C

 

[Michael Billings]

I will attempt to play with this tonight. However the "Outward & Reverse Splits" are not a terms I have heard before.

This looks like a more like variation of Repeated Devistation (sans extension) with the Scraping Hoof initial movement Grafted as a prefix. But that is just me trying to put it in a framework I know.

Interesting suppressing check to disturb his base and ensure the load bearing leg is unable to kick, and the utilization of Borrowed Force by disturbing the height zone vis-a-vis the same check, for the elbow strike (#6). Is this a continuous action from the downward postion when you "Brushed" the "Study Partner's" arm down? I envision a downward horizontal forearm "Brushing" then without any loss of motion, changing the orbit to an outward motion for the elbow. Somewhat of a Figure 8 for a slight downward component with the elbow?

If it is not one thing it is another. I always have to "THINK". Geez, like I have nothing better to do with my time.

MB :asian: