Ryukyu Kempo.

[Kempojujutsu]

I don't want to take anything away from Mitose, or Chow and how Kempo got to America. But the founder of Okinawan Kempo, Shigeru Nakamura had several students who could of developed it here in the U.S. Seiyu Oyata, Seikichi Odo. Shigeru Nakamura's Uncle Teiichi Nakamura also emigrated to United States. He was one of Shigeru teachers. Shigeru Nakamura was probaly one of the first to use the word Okinawan Kempo. But this may have developed much earlier with Motobu Ryu. Most of this infomation is from the book Okinawan Karate by Mark Bishop. One small note there is nothing about Mitose or Chow in this book. Makes me wonder.:asian:

Bob Thomas

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by tigerstorm

my only question now is how is it that Chow has a more factual history. I am not bashing him either my lineage is traced back to him, but how can you find out alot about a man who didnt have a social security number, nor true police record. He was as much a ghost as Mitose.
Also if Mitoses system is all bull, how did this art come to America? Id like to know how the art Kempo/Kenpo got here if Mitose had never taught it in Hawaii, I suppose that Chow would have done exactly the same things having never studied with Mitose. Also I didnt see anyone say that Mitose was Chows mentor, so how is that word at all in relation to the conversation.

Does Chow claim that Mitose was his soul teacher? I've heard a
lot of different statements on this subject. I've also heard loads
of claims that Mr Parker, and a lot of the current "kenpo gods"
weren't impressed one iota with Mitose. That's pretty amazing,
for an art to be improved on so much, in just 2 generations.

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by tigerstorm

I dont mean to step on any toes and I am by no means trying to go in that direction, but I have to ask this:
If Mitose was the last of the Kosho line than there would be no Kempo/Kenpo in the U.S. today right?
He did teach William K.S.Chow, who went on to teach Ed Parker.
The last of his family line is another question. His Son Thomas (Barro) Mitose is carrying on the family art, however, he did not receive a lifetime of training from his father.
Nimr Hassan, and with no disrescpect intended I believe was taught a variation of the Kosho art. I say this because James Mitose broke the teaching of Kosho into 3 parts, if I remember correctly, Hassan learned the jiu jitsu or nervous system variation.
Also I believe that it was William K.S. Chow who changed the letter from M to N in order to seperate the two men, the N was to show the Chinese influence on his branch.
Respects Tigerstorm

Tigerstorm, please go to this website and learn the real truth about Mitose in the article entitled "The First American Kenpo Master" and read the other articles. This website belongs to Soke William Durbin; of Kiyojute Ryu Kempo Bugei. Here you will be able to see Mitose's true magic as a martial arts master. The teachings here are based on his art of Kosho Ryu Kempo. The url is http://www.kiyojuteryu.org/ Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Chiduce

Tigerstorm, please go to this website and learn the real truth about Mitose in the article entitled "The First American Kenpo Master" and read the other articles. This website belongs to Soke William Durbin; of Kiyojute Ryu Kempo Bugei. Here you will be able to see Mitose's true magic as a martial arts master. The teachings here are based on his art of Kosho Ryu Kempo. The url is http://www.kiyojuteryu.org/ Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

No offense Chiduce, but you, nor the author have any basis of
saying this is the "real" truth about Mitose. To quote the author,
"All conclusions in this article are mine". This is the truth as he
saw it, and it's very opinionated. There's no proof there, other
than words. He claims this "truth" from speaking with people,
whom the author leads ME to believe were his followers.

Now don't take this the wrong way, I'm merely saying it to prove
a point. I could get quite a few people on this forum to say
you're an *******. It doesn't mean they feel that way, nor does it
mean it's true. I need more proof than "this is what I believe" or
"this is what a lot of people told me"

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by Kirk



No offense Chiduce, but you, nor the author have any basis of
saying this is the "real" truth about Mitose. To quote the author,
"All conclusions in this article are mine". This is the truth as he
saw it, and it's very opinionated. There's no proof there, other
than words. He claims this "truth" from speaking with people,
whom the author leads ME to believe were his followers.

Now don't take this the wrong way, I'm merely saying it to prove
a point. I could get quite a few people on this forum to say
you're an *******. It doesn't mean they feel that way, nor does it
mean it's true. I need more proof than "this is what I believe" or
"this is what a lot of people told me"

Kirk, anyone could do the same including myself. Dr. Durbin does not have what you called followers followers or the like. He is a martial arts historian and his conclusions are based on sources of reliability or the most reliable for the time. Since you are not a historian and myself either; we cannot even come close to the conclusions that these practioner's come up with. They are the most reliable sources of information that we have as practitioners to the puzzles whic exist wthin our art! I take it also that you are not a soke or founder of a system of your own. Open-mindedness is a part of virtue to learn as much as we can according to the martial way in which we choose to take. Dr. Durbin is also a minister. I'am prone more to trust in the information which a minister has to offer than a non-minister concerning such a delicate issue such as this. You have your own opinion, yet opinions are like assholes, everybody and has one! The fact that Dr. Durbin also, is in alliance with Menkyo Nimr Hassan also provides a glimpse into the world of Master Mitose's Kosho Ryu! So, i would look fruther if i did not believe or agree and contact these people through e-mail or phone etc, and see what info, that they have to offer. Still the conclusion is yours and no one elses. Also, you had to be told about your style, teacher and founder. So, believing the masses does not always mean that you are getting the truth also. The original story from one person to the other will always be twisted to fit the person telling the story's needs. Yet, making presumptions is just that. Even in court the person is suppose to be innocent, until proven guilty! Not, guilty by reason of someelses and your own opinions. Sincerely, In Humility;Chiduce!

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Chiduce

Kirk, anyone could do the same including myself. Dr. Durbin does not have what you called followers followers or the like. He is a martial arts historian and his conclusions are based on sources of reliability or the most reliable for the time. Since you are not a historian and myself either; we cannot even come close to the conclusions that these practioner's come up with. They are the most reliable sources of information that we have as practitioners to the puzzles whic exist within our art!

Okay, where to begin? Does Dr Durbin claim a lineage to Mitose?
Is Dr Durbin the only M.A. Historian to research Mitose? Do all
M.A. Historians agree with Dr Durbin's conclusions about Mr
Mitose?

The use of the word "followers" was in reference to those he
claimed to interview about Mr Mitose. He stated they were those
closely associated with Mitose ... followers.

I take it also that you are not a soke or founder of a system of your own.

What does that have to do with anything? I'm merely stating
that you claimed in your previous post that the article given was
the "REAL" story about Mitose. You didn't state that it was the
real story, "in your opinion". The point is, that the article,
although well written, and authoritative provides no proof, other
than "I interviewed people who have a close association with
Mr Mitose" which to me are biased people in the first place.

Open-mindedness is a part of virtue to learn as much as we can according to the martial way in which we choose to take.

YEP!

Dr. Durbin is also a minister. I'am prone more to trust in the information which a minister has to offer than a non-minister concerning such a delicate issue such as this.

No offense to you sir, or Dr. Durbin, but there's quite a few
sexually molested altar boys who have been prone to trust a
man of the cloth as well.

The fact that Dr. Durbin also, is in alliance with Menkyo Nimr Hassan also provides a glimpse into the world of Master Mitose's Kosho Ryu!

Okay, that means nothing to me. Smells a lot like a personal
lineage to Mitose though! This is a bias, plain and simple. I'm
an EPAK student, I instantly put more faith into a learned, ranking
EPAK'ist ... I admit bias, but ALWAYS try to have an open mind.

So, i would look further if i did not believe or agree and contact these people through e-mail or phone etc, and see what info, that they have to offer.

No need .. I'm only disagreeing with you saying it's the "REAL"
story of Mitose. You don't know, I don't know, there's no proof.

[B Also, you had to be told about your style, teacher and founder. So, believing the masses does not always mean that you are getting the truth also. The original story from one person to the other will always be twisted to fit the person telling the story's needs. Yet, making presumptions is just that.[/B]

I never said that I was getting the truth .. but again, I admit my
bias as well. I never said what was true and what wasn't. My
PERSONAL belief is that Mitose was a con man. And everytime I
say anything like that .. I say "this is what I heard" or "this is my
opinion" ... I never say "the REAL truth is that Mitose is a con
man" .. EVER!!! I don't presume to know a bloody thing. I know
nothing! But I believe those around me, that care to give me
whatever knowledge they possess, and treat me with decency.
It's not everyday that men of high caliber spend their time feeding
me information via the net, on the mat, on the phone, whatever.
The information I've recieved was just as plausible and well
said/written as Dr. Durbin's. And plenty of these people claim to
have researched it as well. It's the EXACT SAME as you, only
we're loyal to different sides of the fence. The only difference, is
I've never presented something as the absolute truth ... you did.

Even in court the person is suppose to be innocent, until
proven guilty! Not, guilty by reason of someone elses and your
own opinions.

Well in reference to Mitose, which is what I think this is all about ..
he was proven guilty, wasn't he?

Sincerely, in biasedness,
Kirk

 

[Goldendragon7]

The gentlemen in question (Dr. Durbin) may very well be a skilled martial artist (I salute him) however....... statements like........

"Dr. Sacharnoski awarded my Kaiden, indicating that I was a master of all traditions"

Well, I know of Dr. Sacharnoski (JJBBFA) and his sidekick, now deceased, Professor DeFleece (could be misspelled - sorry) and even tho he is a very talented Martial Artist......... who anointed him with all this power to appoint such ranks?!

Mr. Parker starred in "Buckstone County Prison" along side Sacharnoski and had many good things to say about him, he even had him do a demonstration at the Long Beach Internationals. But as an all powerful "SOKE promoter"........ well, it lacks credibility as does Durbins "Real Truth about Mitose" it is his opinion and that is fine but there are others out here that had contact and watched Mitose as well....... don't try to pass off partial truths and change the real history.

:asian:

 

[Chiduce]

Kirk you may be right about we are loyal to different sides. Yet, i can be just as biased as the next person if i choose to be. Like i said before, you have your choice and i have mine. You will not change my understanding and i probably will not change yours. I'am not looking for middle ground here in this discussion. Point-counterpoint, yet we will not know the complete truth unless a few people come back from the dead to tell us both. That is not going to happen so to each his own! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Zeke]

Wincefuess said in an early post:”Why is there no Kosho-Ryu in Japan? Has anyone there even heard of it?”
and this was the reply:

Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi



I agree with that there is a good chance that Mitose came up with “Kosho-ryu” himself, but you are mistaken if you think there is no kosho-ryu in Japan. As a mater of fact, I have found reference even in Okinawa and Japan.

The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, written by Watatani Kiyoshi and Yamada Tadashi, that list all of the ryus, or schools, of Japan, lists a Kosho-ryu (written “old pine tree”) and identifies it as a karate system. This is the most respected and reputable book of it’s kind in Japan.

The book doesn't say anything else about it, which usually indicates that the editors either couldn't find any information other than the name or dismissed whatever information the school itself provided as completely fantastic, but it is listed in Japan.

Sanxiawuyi

:asian:

This is the only post that have dealt with the facts regarding Mitose and Kosho-ryu! The rest is just claims. No matter what anyone says on any website, magazine or book. there are NO FACTS that support Mitose' claims regarding his connection to the style of Kosho-ryu .
I am sorry if some people feel insulted by this opinion but as long as nobody can prove me wrong I'll stick with it
Take care
Zeke:asian:
(Who will now go in hiding waiting for the flames to begin )

 

[arnisador]

Speaking of William Durbin, I was looking at his "Mastering Kempo" book in the bookstore this evening and I noticed that he lists two types of kata: Freestyle and the more common Prearranged. What is Freestyle kata? Martial arts shadow-boxing?

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by arnisador

Speaking of William Durbin, I was looking at his "Mastering Kempo" book in the bookstore this evening and I noticed that he lists two types of kata: Freestyle and the more common Prearranged. What is Freestyle kata? Martial arts shadow-boxing?

Arnisador, it is listed in his text on page 160 as "Freestyle Form, the original method of form training"! One of the 70 articles at http:www.kiyojuteryu.org/ site soke articles. I will look through several and let you know which one it is. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Chiduce]

He did teach his sister Clara or Fusae Mitose. The name may not be correct. Would not she be included in the lineage also? Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Blindside]

Regarding the whole kenpo lineage thing.

I used to debate this alot, but then I found out that I could be more productive if I put a metal garbage can on my head and allowed my stick training partners to bang on it alot.

At least they got some training out of it.

Lamont

 

[Zeke]

Well I guess I'll have to try that some day instead....NOT
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Take care
Zeke