Ryukyu Kempo.

[arnisador]

The description of this forum is:

Kempo (Kosho Ryu, Ryukyu), Kenpo, American Kenpo and Kajukenbo

I know that most of those listed above share some connection, but is Ryukyu Kempo at all related to kenpo and the rest? It seems to be to bear the name only coincidentally as another transliteration of chuan fa and to be much more closely related to Okinawan karate.

 

[Sanxiawuyi]

arnisador:

but is Ryukyu Kempo at all related to kenpo and the rest?

Why would Ryukyu Kenpo not be related to the rest?? By the way, the RyuKyu's are a small chain of islands located between Japan and China. The largest and most famous of these islands is Okinawa.

Japanese Kenpo
Okinawan (Ryukyu) Kenpo
American Kenpo
Etc…..

In Japanese, the Kanji (Japanese word for Chinese written ideograms or characters) for Quan fa is pronounced Kem Po (spelled Kenpo). There are many styles or systems of Kenpo, as Kenpo/Quan fa is a generic term describing martial arts with Chinese influence.

Okinawan Kenpo Tode is directly related and influenced by Chinese Quan fa (Ch’uan fa), just as is Kosho-ryu, American Kenpo, Tracy’s Kenpo, Shorinji Kenpo, Uechi-ryu, etc….

I have also heard rumours that Kosho-ryu’s James Mitose may have intentionally put clues in his Kenpo as to the "true" origins of his system of Kenpo, and that the Kosho-ryu and the Kosho monk he spoke of may have been the Chinese Gong fu (Quan fa) master Kusankun (also known as Koshokan and Koshankun). This would explain the Okinawan connection, i.e. Motobu, makiwara training, etc., as well as the Chinese influence.

So, there are numerous “connections” tying all of these “systems” together, on many levels. You can see it in the Kata. The Ryukyu kata Naihanchi has bunkai (techniques) which are exactly the same as techniques in American and Tracy Kenpo! They "all" hold their roots in China.

Sanxiawuyi

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi
The Ryukyu kata Naihanchi has bunkai (techniques) which are exactly the same as techniques in American and Tracy Kenpo!

I did not know that! Interesting. I also don't know much about Kosho-ryu. Is it still taught, or did it entirely disappear into kenpo? Sorry, I know something about the Ryukyuan arts but very little about kenpo.

 

[Sanxiawuyi]

Originally posted by arnisador


I did not know that! Interesting. I also don't know much about Kosho-ryu. Is it still taught, or did it entirely disappear into kenpo?

Since the passing of James Masayoshi Mitose there have been many people claiming to be the inheritor of Kosho-ryu Kenpo, and I have my own personal opinions on the whole thing, which I won’t get into, but the following say they teach “Kosho-ryu”:

1. Thomas B. Mitose was born in 1940, Honolulu, Hawaii. He was James M. Mitose’s first, child. Thomas B. Mitose teaches and passes on his family’s art of Kosho-ryu at his dojo, "Mitose's Kosho-Ryu Karate Kenpo Academy", in Antioch, CA.

2. Bruce Juchnik is versed in many styles of martial arts, including Tang Soo-do, Arnis, Gong fu, as well as being a Black Belt in the Tracy’s System of Kenpo. Bruce Juchnik studied with James Mitose from 1977 to 1981. His studies only consisted of verbal instruction because of James Mitose's incarceration at the time.

Bruce Juchnik founded the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai International (S.K.S.K.I.). The Kai was developed to carry on and preserve the teachings of James Masayoshi Mitose.

3. In the early 1970s, James M. Mitose came out of retirement and accepted one student for training and instruction in his family's system. Nimr Hassan (Terry Lee) was selected over other candidates to become the "ichi deschi" (disciple/only student) of Mitose.

Nimr Hassan continues to teach at his dojo in Philadelphia, Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo Association of Philadelphia.


Sanxiawuyi

:asian:

 

[vincefuess]

Okay- this post will not be popular. Whn I first started learning about Kenpo, I was led down the path of the Kosho-Ryu and the Mitose clan. Was James Mitose the last of his family?? Why is there no Kosho-Ryu in Japan? Has anyone there even heard of it?

Every other martial art still has a legacy at it's root origin, even the art of "stealth" ninjutsu! Has anyone ever thought to ask the question- WHY IS THERE NOT A KOSHO RYU SYSTEM IN JAPAN- where it came from. More Mitose mystery. I call a a waddling, quacking creature a duck. What did Mitose call it?

I believed in the Kosho-Ryu for many years. I honestly feel today that it is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. Someone give me some HARD evidence (not hearsay) to the contrary. I have no agenda- I CAN be swayed if thre evidence is valid. But as I sit here, I say the Kosho Ryu was invented by James Mitose.

 

[Sanxiawuyi]

Originally posted by vincefuess
WHY IS THERE NOT A KOSHO RYU SYSTEM IN JAPAN- where it came from. More Mitose mystery.

I agree with that there is a good chance that Mitose came up with “Kosho-ryu” himself, but you are mistaken if you think there is no kosho-ryu in Japan. As a mater of fact, I have found reference even in Okinawa and Japan.

The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, written by Watatani Kiyoshi and Yamada Tadashi, that list all of the ryus, or schools, of Japan, lists a Kosho-ryu (written “old pine tree”) and identifies it as a karate system. This is the most respected and reputable book of it’s kind in Japan.

The book doesn't say anything else about it, which usually indicates that the editors either couldn't find any information other than the name or dismissed whatever information the school itself provided as completely fantastic, but it is listed in Japan.

Sanxiawuyi

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi
I agree with that there is a good chance that Mitose came up with “Kosho-ryu” himself, but you are mistaken if you think there is no kosho-ryu in Japan.

I don't have access to the reference you cited, but I cannot find the style at www.koryu.com which would likely list it if it was an old style. This does not necessarily contradict what you wrote--what is the copyright year on the book by Watatani Kiyoshi and Yamada Tadashi?

 

[Sanxiawuyi]

Originally posted by arnisador
I don't have access to the reference you cited, but I cannot find the style at www.koryu.com which would likely list it if it was an old style. This does not necessarily contradict what you wrote--what is the copyright year on the book by Watatani Kiyoshi and Yamada Tadashi?

I am not sure why koryu.com does not list kosho, but they use the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten themselves to find info on different ryu and their linage!? Maybe try doing a search at Koryu.com for the book!?

As for copyright; Watatani, K. and T. Yamada. 1978. Bugei Ryuha Daijiten (Dictionary of Japanese Martial Art Traditions). Tokyo: Tokyo Kopii Shuppanbu

It has been updated with newer editions over the years, to current time, and is well over 1,000 pages of small type and has yet to be fully translated into English. You can find it in Japan, but it will cost you a few hundred dollars.

Hope this helps.

:asian:
The Kenpo Exchange

 

[donald]

Is'nt George Dillman the dude, when it comes to this system in the states? Was'nt he one of Oyata Sensei's top guys? I for one am very interested in all the kenpo/kempo systems, and enjoy keeping abreast of the different goings on...

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by vincefuess
Okay- this post will not be popular. Whn I first started learning about Kenpo, I was led down the path of the Kosho-Ryu and the Mitose clan. Was James Mitose the last of his family?? Why is there no Kosho-Ryu in Japan? Has anyone there even heard of it?

Every other martial art still has a legacy at it's root origin, even the art of "stealth" ninjutsu! Has anyone ever thought to ask the question- WHY IS THERE NOT A KOSHO RYU SYSTEM IN JAPAN- where it came from. More Mitose mystery. I call a a waddling, quacking creature a duck. What did Mitose call it?

I believed in the Kosho-Ryu for many years. I honestly feel today that it is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. Someone give me some HARD evidence (not hearsay) to the contrary. I have no agenda- I CAN be swayed if thre evidence is valid. But as I sit here, I say the Kosho Ryu was invented by James Mitose.

Kosho Ryu also gave rise to our modern day arts of Dragon Kempo-Jiu Jitsu Dan Con Ryu or Raydan Kempo , Koga Ha Ninjutsu, And Kyojute Ryu Kempo Bugei! Hanshi Nimir Hassan ( Teaching the Koppo and Kosho-Ryu Hammer) as well as the other jutsu of the system. While Kiyojute Ryu Kempo Bugei by Soke Dr. William Durbin includes most of the ancient skills of the ninja; such as hichojutsu, karumijutsu, aiki flowing, ashisabaki taisabaki, butoku etc,. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[vincefuess]

Hi Chiduce!

Thank you for the response, but could you define the various lineages more clearly (IE: exactly where and how these arts were spawned from Kosho-Ryu)?

In re-reading my post, it seems a bit inflammatory and it was not intended so. It's just that I keep asking the same question and never receive a clear answer. I know there are a great many martial arts and artists who attribute their arts to the Kosho Ryu, but other than those who were associated with Mitose there seems to be little other legacy (at least that has been defined as such to me).

Was Mitose in fact the LAST remaining member of the original Kosho-Ryu? It seems logical that many more members of the Kosho-Ryu would have developed in other areas, and would likely still have strong roots in Japan (as do most other traditional martial art systems).

I would be greatly appreciative if you (or anyone else) can trace a lineage for me, outside of Mitose, to the Kosho-Ryu. I would also greatly appreciate any information on any branch of the Kosho-Ryu still operating in Japan.

This has been a quest of mine for some time- for no other reason than for my own personal knowledge.

Thank you for your time!

Vince

 

[Rob_Broad]

A simple answer to the complex question of how Ryu Kyu Kempo relates to American Kenpo. Ryu Kyu employs wide stances and uses the traditional Okinanwan Kata. Ask any Dillman follower and they can spout of all the katas. American Kenpo is down and dirty what ever works.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Just wanna add this. I came across this I believe in William Durbin's Kempo Book. They stated that Mitose's art of Kenpo was misspelled by the publisher. It should had been spelled Kempo. Mitose didn't have the money to correct this and he wanted to separted it from kempo. How many of you kenpo guys have heard this?

Bob Thomas

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Just wanna add this. I came across this I believe in William Durbin's Kempo Book. They stated that Mitose's art of Kenpo was misspelled by the publisher. It should had been spelled Kempo. Mitose didn't have the money to correct this and he wanted to separted it from kempo. How many of you kenpo guys have heard this?

Bob Thomas

I agree. I think that i came across the same information on the Tracy Kenpo site also. I have the Mastering Kempo Text also. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi

There have been many people claiming to be the inheritor of Kosho-ryu Kenpo, the following say they teach “Kosho-ryu”:

1. Thomas B. Mitose was born in 1940, Honolulu, Hawaii. He was James M. Mitose’s first, child and teaches and passes on his family’s art of Kosho-ryu at his dojo, in Antioch, CA.

2. Bruce Juchnik studied with James Mitose from 1977 to 1981. His studies only consisted of verbal instruction because of James Mitose's incarceration at the time. He founded the Kosho Shorei Kai International which was developed to carry on and preserve the teachings of James Masayoshi Mitose.

3. In the early 1970s, James M. Mitose came out of retirement and accepted one student for training and instruction in his family's system. Nimr Hassan (Terry Lee) was selected over other candidates to become the "ichi deschi" (disciple/only student) of Mitose.

Nimr Hassan continues to teach at his dojo in Philadelphia, Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo Association of Philadelphia.

Sanxiawuyi :asian:

Question is......... on #3 if Mitose only had one student since the early 70's who was it...... his son, Juchnik or Hassan, if he could only have ONE STUDENT OR DISCIPLE - Who was it?

Seems to be contradictory to me, and very confusing.

:asian:

 

[Zeke]

Yes , very confusing indeed!
(Somehow I don't think you find confusing at all )
Take care
Zeke

 

[tigerstorm]

I dont mean to step on any toes and I am by no means trying to go in that direction, but I have to ask this:
If Mitose was the last of the Kosho line than there would be no Kempo/Kenpo in the U.S. today right?
He did teach William K.S.Chow, who went on to teach Ed Parker.
The last of his family line is another question. His Son Thomas (Barro) Mitose is carrying on the family art, however, he did not receive a lifetime of training from his father.
Nimr Hassan, and with no disrescpect intended I believe was taught a variation of the Kosho art. I say this because James Mitose broke the teaching of Kosho into 3 parts, if I remember correctly, Hassan learned the jiu jitsu or nervous system variation.
Also I believe that it was William K.S. Chow who changed the letter from M to N in order to seperate the two men, the N was to show the Chinese influence on his branch.
Respects Tigerstorm

 

[vincefuess]

Given the barrage of claims and semi-facts with little or no clear subsantiation available, one has to draw conclusions based on an overview of what is known and what is presented.

1. Mitose was not Chow's mentor. Chow trained with Mitose, and by a conglomeration of accounts, "tapped out" the well of Mitose's guidance. Chow maintains a more verifiable, less tarnished reputation, both in provable fact AND folklore- so I see Chow as the more credible source.

2. Mitose made it a point to deceive people, actually a career. Further erosion of credibility.

3. The fact that Kosho-Ryu is only credited in tiny footnotes in reputable texts of the martial arts of Japan/ Okinawa, with apparently no definable "base", leads me to the conclusion that Mitose was aware of this at some point in time and used the Kosho-Ryu name as his tradition, because no one was around to dispute it.

4. It is also my understanding that Chow spelled the word KeNpo to seperate what he was doing from the rest.

5. There are a great number of Okinawan based Kempo arts, all with substantiated origins- Ryukyu and Shorei-Ryu to name two.

These are just conclusions that I have drawn based on years of research from innumerable sources, they are not cast in stone. My research into these subjects is ever growing and changing, and I would greatly appeciate some more input on the subject.

 

[Goldendragon7]

You nailed it ALL on the head! Great Post!

:asian:

 

[tigerstorm]

my only question now is how is it that Chow has a more factual history. I am not bashing him either my lineage is traced back to him, but how can you find out alot about a man who didnt have a social security number, nor true police record. He was as much a ghost as Mitose.
Also if Mitoses system is all bull, how did this art come to America? Id like to know how the art Kempo/Kenpo got here if Mitose had never taught it in Hawaii, I suppose that Chow would have done exactly the same things having never studied with Mitose. Also I didnt see anyone say that Mitose was Chows mentor, so how is that word at all in relation to the conversation.