rickson gracie

[Kenpojujitsu3]

This nonsense has got to stop. Many boxing fans and experts have a problem thinking of Marciano as a great fighter and he cleaned out his division and demolished multiple HOF fighters. Rickson was one of the better fighters of his era, but his legend comes out of matches in an era when he was beating Brazil's best streetfighters, not international elite athletes and modern world class fighters. Rickson never beat any of the major fighters that were available to him even in the mid 90s when he was young enought to still compete head to head, and few of those fighters are all that feared today.

True again, but the diehard fans will never listen. I'm a HUGE Rickson Gracie fan from the things I've seen of him. For that matter I'm a fan of the entire clan and their "family art". However, I can objectively put it in perspective. There is always the claim of "back it up and document it". All the backyard this and back in the day that is irrelelvant because it can't be proven. The stuff that CAN be proven is what I used and based my discussion on. ON PAPER (read: what can be proven and had been documented in text and film) there is no comparison for speculation. But the diehard fans will always go Rickson is the greatest because he wnet undefeated. Even if he fought 3 guys and was 3 and 0 there would be tons of fans saying he was undefeated and no one was ON HIS LEVEL. Rickson's most impressive accomplishment is his sport Jiu Jitsu record. His Sambo record includes a loss and his MMA record includes 10 victories over guys that lost to just about everyone they got in the ring with. That doesn't mean Rickson sucked...but beating 8 tomatoe cans including 2 of them twice doesn't prove greatness either. Unless you count his 2 victories over the "legendary" Zulu. Oh wait....Zulu's record isn't documented either except for two losses to Rickson, but I HEARD Zulu was a bad man....

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

It's easy to talk about a guy on top of his game. Rickson isn't fighting anymore. Fedor is in his prime right now. In 10 years a discussion can be made but until Fedor reaches the level Rickson is on it's not even close. Pride fans and some MMA fans know about Fedor.. All Martial Artists know about Rickson Gracie.. That's the difference..

I'd venture to say that most martial artists know both of them. All the martial artists I interact with know both names and that list spans the globe in one way or another. So that's really not a difference...

 

[Rook]

True again, but the diehard fans will never listen. I'm a HUGE Rickson Gracie fan from the things I've seen of him. For that matter I'm a fan of the entire clan and their "family art". However, I can objectively put it in perspective. There is always the claim of "back it up and document it". All the backyard this and back in the day that is irrelelvant because it can't be proven. The stuff that CAN be proven is what I used and based my discussion on. ON PAPER (read: what can be proven and had been documented in text and film) there is no comparison for speculation. But the diehard fans will always go Rickson is the greatest because he wnet undefeated. Even if he fought 3 guys and was 3 and 0 there would be tons of fans saying he was undefeated and no one was ON HIS LEVEL. Rickson's most impressive accomplishment is his sport Jiu Jitsu record. His Sambo record includes a loss and his MMA record includes 10 victories over guys that lost to just about everyone they got in the ring with. That doesn't mean Rickson sucked...but beating 8 tomatoe cans including 2 of them twice doesn't prove greatness either. Unless you count his 2 victories over the "legendary" Zulu. Oh wait....Zulu's record isn't documented either except for two losses to Rickson, but I HEARD Zulu was a bad man....

Makes sense. I don't have a problem with saying that Rickson was the best sport BJJ competitor for an extended period, although there are probably some who would object to that. I suspect that even if Rickson did have 400 wins and no losses (and he can't prove that and his own father mocks the idea in public), that they would virtually all be against virtual nobodies from Brazil. Zulu, while well known, had no formal training whatsoever, and at 220 lbs, was hardly a monster either. Neither Rickson nor Zulu had any known victories against major fighters, although both had squashed some trained ones.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Makes sense. I don't have a problem with saying that Rickson was the best sport BJJ competitor for an extended period, although there are probably some who would object to that. I suspect that even if Rickson did have 400 wins and no losses (and he can't prove that and his own father mocks the idea in public), that they would virtually all be against virtual nobodies from Brazil. Zulu, while well known, had no formal training whatsoever, and at 220 lbs, was hardly a monster either. Neither Rickson nor Zulu had any known victories against major fighters, although both had squashed some trained ones.

Ssssssssshhhh. Don't tell anyone about that interview.

 

[matt.m]

You know to make a comparison using the sport of bodybuilding. Arnold Schwarzenegger has pulled the wagon for that sport since the early 70's. They use him in BB pubs and for the cover boy to this day on a constant and continuous basis. No Mr. Olympia since Arnold has reached such popularity and fanfare. Not Frank Zane, Lee Haney, Dorian Yates, or Ronnie Coleman. I am only naming multiple Olympia winners.

He had 2 losses in his career onstage. However he wouldn't make it past the national level now. It is based on "What has this person done for our sport? Have they shaped and brought about a popularity surge? Has this person been a positive or negative?"

So it really isn't Fedor could kill Gracie or vice versa, this is really a popularity contest. By the way, for the record and the record books....a win is a win is a win. Who cares if you beat another competitor in the octogon/ring whatever whether it is Joe Smith or Tito Ortiz. They had to be at a certain level to be in the competition correct?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Different era's are always hard to compare in sports because the principals do not get a chance to compete against each other. Rickson was great in his day and now Fedor is great in his. The only thing we can say for sure is that the competition level is far superior now based on the quality of fighters being produced.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Pride fans and some MMA fans know about Fedor.. All Martial Artists know about Rickson Gracie.. That's the difference..

So you're saying all conclusions regarding a fighters ability should be based on the opinions of people who don't know much about the fighters in question, or the competitions they enter? Yes I can see how that would indeed result in an informed decision....

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

By the way, for the record and the record books....a win is a win is a win. Who cares if you beat another competitor in the octogon/ring whatever whether it is Joe Smith or Tito Ortiz. They had to be at a certain level to be in the competition correct?

Ummmmm no. I have to disagree here. There are many different skill levels in any athletic endeavor or league. In the 90's would you be more impressed if a basketball team dominated the Chicago Bulls (Pippen, Jordan, et all) or if they dominated the Los Angeles Clippers? By your rationale they had to be on or near the same level to be in the competition right? They were both NBA teams right?

For the records and record books...Fedor beat Several MUTLIPLE time champions. Rickson did not. and that's on PAPER. There are several boxers in history who were undefeated heading into their bout with the current champ. 9 out of 10 times the ones that were undefeated fighting guys with losing records lost to the champ in dramatic fashion. Especially in bouts were the standing Champ had fought and defended the title already.

Sorry but there are always levels within levels of any athletic endeavor. so the Joe Smith Tito Ortiz comment won't stand. It does make a difference who the competition is and a win is not a win.

 

[Odin]

Whats quite interesting is the different recoreds that different sites have on rickson

sherdog has him down as 11-0

Where as this site right here http://groups.msn.com/CHINESEBOXINGRINGRECORDS/ricksongraciesrecord.msnw has him down as 79-01

What I did find out is that Rickson has one documented loss against a man named Ron Trip in a match that lasted just 45 seconds ( it was a sambo compition tough he wasnt submitted)

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Whats quite interesting is the different recoreds that different sites have on rickson

sherdog has him down as 11-0

Where as this site right here http://groups.msn.com/CHINESEBOXINGRINGRECORDS/ricksongraciesrecord.msnw has him down as 79-01

What I did find out is that Rickson has one documented loss against a man named Ron Trip in a match that lasted just 45 seconds ( it was a sambo compition tough he wasnt submitted)

Problem is

1) There is no documentation of most of this

2) Check the names listed (Kung Fu Sensi?")

3) Since when are Sport Jiu Jitsu matches considered fights. If that's the case I have over 300 victories by way of point fighting and Ju Jitsu submissions.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Ummmmm no. I have to disagree here. There are many different skill levels in any athletic endeavor or league. In the 90's would you be more impressed if a basketball team dominated the Chicago Bulls (Pippen, Jordan, et all) or if they dominated the Los Angeles Clippers? By your rationale they had to be on or near the same level to be in the competition right? They were both NBA teams right?

For the records and record books...Fedor beat Several MUTLIPLE time champions. Rickson did not. and that's on PAPER. There are several boxers in history who were undefeated heading into their bout with the current champ. 9 out of 10 times the ones that were undefeated fighting guys with losing records lost to the champ in dramatic fashion. Especially in bouts were the standing Champ had fought and defended the title already.

Sorry but there are always levels within levels of any athletic endeavor. so the Joe Smith Tito Ortiz comment won't stand. It does make a difference who the competition is and a win is not a win.

As a student of Ricksons when he had his bouts in Japan...the Japanese promoters had, for national pride purposes, pressured him to throw the fights. Rickson did not. So, after he beat the shoot-fighter he faced in a documented ring, the Japanese sent over their NUMBER ONE SHOOT FIGHTING CHAMP of the day to beat Rickson in his own school. Rickson had kept very tight ownership of the tape.

Rickson came to class one night, and for those of us too stubborn and curious to leave, showed us the tape. A mass of Japanese press had followed the shootfighter. Luis called Rickson at home about the problem; a mass of Japanese press in the studio with some showboat, and Rickson went down there to deal with it...in his pajamas. He kicked out all but one camera, and proceeded to have his bout with the guy. For making him get out of bed and for disturbing his neighbor businesses in the strip mall, Rickson beat the crap out of the guy before choking him out. He let the press back in the door, just as the guy was waking up...so they could plaster pictures of their bloodied hero all over their sports mags. Even though annoyed, Rickson said he had a lot of respect for the figter, as he never quit trying.

That guy wasn't a tomato can; he was sent to recover the pride of Japan, lost in the vale tudo matches to what the Japanese called, "a south american banana-eating monkey" (referencing the Gracie diet). It's not a documented win. And if you spent any time around Rickson back then, this kind of thing happened literally several times a week, with most of the comers having some titles to back up their right to take a shot at the champ. We had Pan Am and Olympic wrestling & judo medalists FROM AROUND THE WORLD, kickboxing and karate champs from around the globe, and titled representatives from pretty much any contact martial art or sport you can name. We even had guys talk smack, boast in the papers, and not show up...so that Rickson would eventually bring the fight to them, and make them walk away in front of a crowd.

Dennis Alexio -- back then, the number one full-contact kickboxing champ -- kept bragging he could KO Rickson. He also kept holding out for a purse. Rickson got tired of the smack talking (the Brazilians don't really have a cultural reference for saying something, and not meaning it for the sake of ring publicity...you talk stink, they think it's on), and travelled to an exhibition bout Alexio was doing in Hawaii. He stood at the entrance Alexio used to get into the ring, and waited for him to come out. Alexio was show-boating his win as he sarted for the exit, and saw Rickson waiting for him with that pissed look. Alexio made for a different exit.

What made Rickson great was not the number of documented wins against guys with records...there was no big MMA movement back then outside of Brazil, as it was only starting in the US and Japan, so there was no huge pool of opportunity then for guys to get records. Back then, you simply showed up, agreed on terms (i.e., no eyes), and went at it. In Brazil, he was already a legend...he had already beat most of the up-and-coming either rolling on the mat in training, or at seminars, or in challenge matches. So, when they had a vale tudo match there, the guys in the know already knew..."oh yeah, Rickson trained the guy who trained the guy in the blue trunks, and slapped the guy in the yellow trunks around like a little beyotch in a challenge match at the Rio school."

That's how Rickson did business. 400 documented matches? Of course not...no documents. But you gotta figure...2 classes a week, with some bozo showing up to call him out at each class = 104 bouts a year. And these are fights, without referees, rules, purses. Many nights had guys lined up waiting for a chance. And he took all comers. Some were tomato cans; many were champions in their own rights. And, if you knew Rickson, you would know he would never brag about it. Unlike the noisier brothers and cousins, Rickson keeps his cards pretty tight to his chest. He'll show up, kick everyone out, beat the guy, then leave. If you ask him about it later, he'll just say "The two guys who need to know what happened know", and leave it at that. That's where being beer drinking buddies with his inner-circle guys with copies of the tapes comes in handy...you see some famous MMA guy show up for an interview with a shiner when there was no fight, and find out later that it's from a Rickson "sparring" session from an insider...he shows you the tape. Then you go to Rickson to confirm (without telling him you already know), and he gets obtuse, evasive, and zen-like in his replies. That's how you know.

Will his official record ever be as good as Fedors? Nope. There weren't that many MMA events back then, and he agreed to stay out of competition in the states so his brothers could have a chance to build some fame and cash. Has he only beaten chumps? Well, before he "got" the importance of fighters deserving better purses than they were getting, he didn't turn anyone down. In fact he went to get them if he needed to, just to put the rumors to rest and make his point. That was how Rickson did business, and that is why e will, to me, always be the champ. Beause his records were from sidewalks, bars, beaches, picnics, challenges at seminars, and anywhere his detractors could find him, or he could find them.

Regards,

Dave...once a student of Rickson before most of you even heard of MMA, and still an admirer having been in the room for many challenge matches.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

As a student of Ricksons when he had his bouts in Japan....

As much as I respect everything you just posted and most of what you have posted in the past (probably about 99.9% of it ) I keep saying ON PAPER. Everything you just mentioned about this challenge that challenge etc etc. is heresay and folk lore to any that didn't see it. It's a "I gotta take your word for it" deal. That's why I love speculative topics about this. All anyone can really do is speculate. The problem is when the speculations are based on speculative evidence. You say you've seen this stuff and I'll believe YOU on it. But many of the Rickson fans go off of what they HEARD about his legend. I'm versed in Ju Jitsu (don't get me started on the differences between Ju and Jiu and BJJ and Judo etc. that's another topic) and I'll be first to admit the way he executes his techniques is light years ahead of MOST that I've seen. But that's my personal experience. But you can't necessarily prove that sort of thing, it's my opinion based on my observations of 1) his mechanics, 2) others mechanics and 3) the "textbook" version of whatever I'm observing. Man I love a good circular discussion...as long as there are thinkers involved. But it'll keep coming back to...."he did what? prove it." On another tangent "Who knows how much behind Fedor has kicked behind closed doors." Rickson's "back alley" record always comes up during discussions like this but no one ever brings the other guy's "back alley" record into the discussion. Then again the other guy usually has the edge in documentation which is another reason why Rickson is such a legend. He's a mystery man to most and people love to hype the mystery man. How many tournament and MMA victories did Bruce Lee and Ed Parker have?.....exactly. Good stuff!

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

The thing I have always liked most about the Gracie family is their approachability on these things. Literally...if you came out to california and trained with his crew for a spell, you would eventually cross paths (unless you also surf, in which case you'd cross paths sooner). Then you could ask him yourself.

Rickson's just not a braggard. Prideful, yes. Boastful, no. And you're right...the circular nature of these discussions is often silly. My loyalty goes to the man for his exquisite technique. He can fine tune your mount, dismount, transitions, holds, escapes, etc., in a way that leaves you wondering why everybody doesn't know this/do this/go out of their way to find out about it and commit it to memory.

D.

PS - I'm willing to bet Fedor has his lion's share of alley matches, too. You just kind of get them when you're in this hobby for a living, and near the top. Thankfully, I'll never have cause to find out just how destructive he could really be.

PPS -- Since you're a fellow kenpoista...we had a guy show up one night, bragging on his kenpo credentials, and having "never been beat". Rickson tied him up in a crucifix in a blink. No cameras on. I bet the guy is still out there saying he's undefeated.

 

[Odin]

Problem is

1) There is no documentation of most of this

2) Check the names listed (Kung Fu Sensi?")

3) Since when are Sport Jiu Jitsu matches considered fights. If that's the case I have over 300 victories by way of point fighting and Ju Jitsu submissions.

POINT 3=> i think was what Helio was refering to in that interview.

Rickson seems to count them.

 

[Shogun]

on the topic of rickson's technique...as Kembudo-Kai Kempoka mentioned, it is simply amazing how he can also teach it. I am under Pedro Sauer who is a 6th degree black belt under rickson, and pedro's technique is known as the most technical in the world...even more technical than rickson. but according to pedro sauer, rickson's technique is simply flawless. he plans his assault 100 moves in advance an never misses a beat. his timing, breathing pattern, etc.

 

[rutherford]

Bruce Lee could kick both their asses at once! It's too bad he's dead!

:barf:

 

[Odin]

Bruce Lee could kick both their asses at once! It's too bad he's dead!

:barf:

lol!!

you ever heard the Bruce lee vale tudo stories?