Respectfuly declining a rank advancement?

[faerie2]

Is there any interest from your kids to start class with you? My wife and one of our daughters go.

Oh, absolutely! We put our 3 year old daughter in the 'tots' program, and she LOVE it!! Our son... well Grandmaster is pleased with his kiap, but he's only 5 months old

 

[faerie2]

Personally, and this is just my opinion, I believe you should trust your instincts. This is particularly true if there is a testing fee involved, or if you are expected to perform an increasing amount of gratis work around the school, such as teaching classes for free at a certain rank. If pretty much every student tests on a regular schedule, like every quarter (suspiciously around the time that the school's taxes are due, for example), and practically (or literally) everyone who tests is promoted, I think you have a point.

Regardless of what kind of reasons you're given, if you're doing something that you feel strongly is wrong, you should be firm. If you're being compelled against your better judgement to do something you aren't comfortable with, you should do what you think is right. Any activity for which you are paying should not make you feel uneasy. That's the very definition of dysfunction.

Personally, I would (and have) left a school for reasons like this. While some will tell you it's a lack of respect for your instructor, I believe that it's quite the reverse, a lack of respect for YOU. I want to be clear that I'm not suggesting that this is universal. I'm speaking largely based upon my own personal experience. This sort of situation is one of several reasons that ultimately led to my leaving my old school and looking for a system that I believe has more integrity.

Well this is the thing, when they want you to test, they give you a test request form, which you return with the amount of $ indicated (higher amount for higher rank). I didn't return the form, and didn't pay the fee. THey didn't charge me for the double promotion last time either. They have made very little money from me considering how far I have advanced. They certainly don't ask me to teach - they know I'm somewhat overextended as it is between two kids and a home business - never mind that I am the lowest rank in the class I am in.

I don't believe I was doing anything wrong, just not as good as I believe I should be for 4th gup.

...again, I'm not sure that it was even a real test, I just wanted to know in advance how to decline it if blue belt was offered.

 

[faerie2]

It is your job as a student to accept your instructor knowledge that they actually know what they are doing. Then you accept the tesy and go on with your training. Now if you do not believe your instructor is good enough to judge who should test find someone else. Have a wonderful day.

Er, wow. Thanks for making my situation so simplistic This is a rather disrespectful way of responding to someone asking for advice on how to be respectful. I realize that you are "ultimate post whore extreme", but that doesn't mean that being rude/non constructively blunt is helpful.

 

[Laurentkd]

Er, wow. Thanks for making my situation so simplistic This is a rather disrespectful way of responding to someone asking for advice on how to be respectful. I realize that you are "ultimate post whore extreme", but that doesn't mean that being rude/non constructively blunt is helpful.

I know Master Stoker (Terry) can respond to this himself, but I am here now so I thought I would step in. To go along with Iceman's point, Master Stoker has 40 years of experience just by himself and he was trying to give you a constructive comment.... and he is often pretty blunt with his posts which I think is a good thing!
He is just trying to tell you that you have accepted this person as your instructor so stop sweating the small stuff (and in the long run even this will be "small stuff" to you on your martial arts journey). You walked into this dojang and thought "this instructor is really good, I really like how he teaches, I think he can teach me what I want to know, I am going to become his student". At that point you stop questioning his methods on teaching. Now, if you decide you don't like how he teaches, you don't think he is a good instructor, or you don't think he can teach you what you want to learn, then leave and find another school. That is your right as the consumer. But you can't claim someone is your teacher and then question the how of his teaching. Now, we all come here and discuss things that our instructors do or our students do just to get other's opinions or viewpoints. But when it comes down to it, you either go with what your instructor says you should do or you find a new instructor. You don't get to tell him how you want things to go. That's my opinion at least, take it if you want.
Have a wonderful day.

 

[Twin Fist]

Terry couldnt be ride if he wanted to

When it comes to rude, that's MY job.

LOL

anyway, there is no way to be respectful and turn down a promotion your instructor feels you deserve.

you turn it down, you are saying "you dont know what you are talking about."

no way to do that respectfully.

Er, wow. Thanks for making my situation so simplistic This is a rather disrespectful way of responding to someone asking for advice on how to be respectful. I realize that you are "ultimate post whore extreme", but that doesn't mean that being rude/non constructively blunt is helpful.

 

[faerie2]

Feedback and opinions are exactly what I was hoping to get from posting this question here. I like that this community is made up of people who love Taekwondo from all over - not just one dojang, city, province/state, country.

Clearly, I am new to Taekwondo and want to get the most out of my training. Reading the comments that you all have given has helped me to gain a different perspective on the whole situation. I suppose I should have expected more people being rude in the guise of being "blunt" - as this forum is predominantly male and competitive. Blunt and concise are appreciated. Condescending comments - whatever your Martial Arts experience, age, rank, post count etc. may be is unproductive. I practice Taekwondo to learn, and I came here to learn too.

 

[Laurentkd]

this might sound blunt and condescending, and if so I am sorry.

But when you come here looking for opinions from "people who love Taekwondo from all over" (which is exactly what we are!) you are going to get different types and responses, different opinions, and different ways that people present their opinions. Take the opinions you like, ignore the ones you don't.

So just relax a little and enjoy the ride :ultracool: I don't know if this forum is predominately male, but it is definitely not competitive. This forum could be a really good tool for you choose to stick around. You get enough people talking about one subject and there are going to be opinions you don't like. But the good by far outweighs any negative. Everyone here is only posting on this thread because you asked and because they want to help. I hope you see that.
Happy posting and good luck with your training.

 

[Svart]

This is a community faerie. Like every other community in the world, there are nice people, rude people and blunt people.
You'll figure who's what ;D

 

[faerie2]

this might sound blunt and condescending, and if so I am sorry.

But when you come here looking for opinions from "people who love Taekwondo from all over" (which is exactly what we are!) you are going to get different types and responses, different opinions, and different ways that people present their opinions. Take the opinions you like, ignore the ones you don't.

So just relax a little and enjoy the ride :ultracool: I don't know if this forum is predominately male, but it is definitely not competitive. This forum could be a really good tool for you choose to stick around. You get enough people talking about one subject and there are going to be opinions you don't like. But the good by far outweighs any negative. Everyone here is only posting on this thread because you asked and because they want to help. I hope you see that.
Happy posting and good luck with your training.

Thanks! Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all comments - rude, polite, condescending or respectful. They all help me to see things from a different angle.

 

[IcemanSK]

You also mentioned that others outside of TKD were commenting on your quick rise thru the ranks. I really don't mean to be glib, but perhaps you shouldn't bring it up to them much. It's one of the unfortunate things of martial arts, people outside of them think that rank is everything (Ok, some inside MA think so, too). Talk about class, what you're learning, how much fun it is, how ya got booted in the head (or how ya booted someone in the head), tests etc., but rank doesn't need to come up.

Folks outside of MA say things like "you're STILL X rank?!" as easily as they say, "weren't you just X rank?!" Few of them know what it takes to get there. If you were doing a spin class or boxing (something without rank belts) & doing well, friends wouldn't have that comparison of the BB they know or their 9 year old nephew who is a brown belt.

Just a thought.

 

[faerie2]

You also mentioned that others outside of TKD were commenting on your quick rise thru the ranks. I really don't mean to be glib, but perhaps you shouldn't bring it up to them much. It's one of the unfortunate things of martial arts, people outside of them think that rank is everything (Ok, some inside MA think so, too). Talk about class, what you're learning, how much fun it is, how ya got booted in the head (or how ya booted someone in the head), tests etc., but rank doesn't need to come up.

Folks outside of MA say things like "you're STILL X rank?!" as easily as they say, "weren't you just X rank?!" Few of them know what it takes to get there. If you were doing a spin class or boxing (something without rank belts) & doing well, friends wouldn't have that comparison of the BB they know or their 9 year old nephew who is a brown belt.

Just a thought.

That's a really good point. Some friends will ask about it because they know it's a huge interest of mine, but I can easily steer the conversation away from belt tests/rank, etc to the training. I'm sure they would much rather hear about how I fell on my butt after attempting a high double kick than being advanced another rank

 

[JWLuiza]

LOL! Athletic, maybe. Young... not so much. I'm 33 and started 8 weeks after having my second baby. Granted, I'm the sort of person who walks/runs 10km every day rain, shine, snow, etc - pregnant or not - I even did 10km walks the day before giving birth both times. I weight train and have spent years doing nonsense like TaeBo (phear my mad Billy Blanks skillz :ultracool) so yeah, athletic, I suppose. I guess I loose sight of my conditioning because I feel like I have started Taekwondo so ... late.


You didn't come across as harsh at all

I just turned 30 myself. Of course, I haven't had two children. But I am capable of being athletic. Maybe in less shape then you since I don't run/walk everyday.

You are probably exciting to have as a student. Able to do most things and mature enough to have a deeper understanding than the teenagers. In the grand scheme of things underbelt rank and how long you spend there is kind of meaningless. I know many of the people on this board are underbelts and it seems SOOOO important how long you are X color belt for. But you will be a black belt for a much greater length of time than as a color belt, that the time frame become irrelevant. I've been a black belt for twice as long as I was a color belt. Right now you are learning how to be a student. Chodan, Shodan, First degree. Lowest of the degrees. The first full step in your learning.

 

[Svart]

I just turned 30 myself. Of course, I haven't had two children. But I am capable of being athletic. Maybe in less shape then you since I don't run/walk everyday.

You are probably exciting to have as a student. Able to do most things and mature enough to have a deeper understanding than the teenagers. In the grand scheme of things underbelt rank and how long you spend there is kind of meaningless. I know many of the people on this board are underbelts and it seems SOOOO important how long you are X color belt for. But you will be a black belt for a much greater length of time than as a color belt, that the time frame become irrelevant. I've been a black belt for twice as long as I was a color belt. Right now you are learning how to be a student. Chodan, Shodan, First degree. Lowest of the degrees. The first full step in your learning.

Exactly. As I see spoken in so many places, coloured belts are your ABC, black belt is learning to read and write.

 

[Steve]

You walked into this dojang and thought "this instructor is really good, I really like how he teaches, I think he can teach me what I want to know, I am going to become his student". At that point you stop questioning his methods on teaching.

I agree with 90% of Lauren's advice. But this is a little alarming. You should never, in my opinion, stop questioning authority. Respect it, sure. But never subjugate your own good sense, your own intuition or instincts to someone only because they are in a position of authority. That's how cults start. That's how Abu Graib's occur.

Always approach every situation from a position of healthy skepticism. Now, I'm not saying that you should be paranoid. I'm saying that, in this situation, I would look for ulterior motives that might be... less altruistic. It sounds like you're okay and you're just trying to be challenged by your instructor.

Does anyone ever fail a testing? And does everyone test every cycle, regardless of skill?

Now, if you decide you don't like how he teaches, you don't think he is a good instructor, or you don't think he can teach you what you want to learn, then leave and find another school. That is your right as the consumer. But you can't claim someone is your teacher and then question the how of his teaching. Now, we all come here and discuss things that our instructors do or our students do just to get other's opinions or viewpoints. But when it comes down to it, you either go with what your instructor says you should do or you find a new instructor. You don't get to tell him how you want things to go. That's my opinion at least, take it if you want.
Have a wonderful day.

I agree with this sentiment, but it might not even be this simple. I liked a lot of things about my old school. I liked the instruction. I liked the people. I liked a lot of things. It was difficult to make the decision to leave.

I guess I'd recommend thinking of it like this. The question is, are the idiosyncrasies of your school things you can accept? If so, let them go and just go with the flow. If not, better to leave and find a more compatible school (or even switching styles). I have been much happier in the last 2 or so years since moving to my current school.

 

[Kacey]

That's a really good point. Some friends will ask about it because they know it's a huge interest of mine, but I can easily steer the conversation away from belt tests/rank, etc to the training. I'm sure they would much rather hear about how I fell on my butt after attempting a high double kick than being advanced another rank

Faerie2, from one woman to another - there are people who are always going to be shocked by your advancement, not because of the speed, but because of our gender. I started TKD in 1987 - and every year someone else finds out about my involvement, asks what rank I am (I'm a IV Dan - but most people don't discriminate between ranks of BB unless they're in a martial art) and I get the same response every time: "Really? You don't look like a black belt!" I've never figured out just what I'm supposed to look like - but the descriptions I get either come out to a short Asian, or someone tall with a swimmer's physique - and either way, the expectation is that BBs are male.

As I said before - if you trust your instructor, then trust that he has a reason (or reasons) for moving you through the ranks faster than most. Remember that you are training 2-3 times more than most people, and that you are in better shape than most people - those two factors are both relevant in the speed with which you advance; many instructors look at total hours in training as much as they do the time since the last testing; someone who trains 6 times a week for 90 minutes will sometimes advance faster than someone who trains 2 times a week for 90 minutes, and sometimes not - it depends on how you're training as much as how often.

Remember, too, that you may not feel you're good enough - but that doesn't mean you haven't met the standard, just that there's still room for improvement.... and there's always room for improvement, no matter how long you've been training.

Either you trust your instructor's judgment - in which case you should trust the speed with which he's advancing you - or you don't, in which case you really need to sit down and consider why you don't trust it, and then discuss it with him. If you feel that you can't discuss it with him - that should tell you something as well.

Good luck, and keep us up on how it's going.

 

[faerie2]

Exactly. As I see spoken in so many places, coloured belts are your ABC, black belt is learning to read and write.

AHA! Thank you for saying this, I thought this was the case, but so many people make such a massively huge deal about how long one spends as which colour belt (especially if you exceed where they dropped out of their training). I hope to continue for as long as I can, and I'm assuming that most of that time will be spent as a back belt.

Does anyone ever fail a testing? And does everyone test every cycle, regardless of skill?

I have seen students not advance after a testing, the most recent was a kid testing for his black belt (poom). Not everyone is asked to test every time. There are a few people who do attend 90% of classes, like myself who are asked to test each time but it's certainly the exception.

Another question for those who are of the mind to never question your instructor:
Would a student then be obliged to accept every belt test request the instructor gives?

 

[Kacey]

Another question for those who are of the mind to never question your instructor:
Would a student then be obliged to accept every belt test request the instructor gives?

Have I questioned my instructor's opinion of my readiness? Yes and no... there have been times when I've had to work my butt off to be ready when I was told I was testing - but those who feel truly ready to test generally aren't, for one reason or another; those who feel somewhat nervous about testing are usually the ones who do the best. This is, of course, a generality - but if my students ask me if they are testing, the answer is no. Testing is at the discretion of the instructor - not the student. I don't "request" that my students test - when a testing approaches, I tell those students who are ready to test that they are testing. Likewise, I test when my instructor tells me to do so. It's a different mindset than is common in the US - it's much more Asian in flavor. In the US it is common to question - in many Asian countries the cultural norm is to do as you are told when you are told, and ask questions later (if at all).

 

[Laurentkd]

I agree with 90% of Lauren's advice. But this is a little alarming. You should never, in my opinion, stop questioning authority. Respect it, sure. But never subjugate your own good sense, your own intuition or instincts to someone only because they are in a position of authority. That's how cults start. That's how Abu Graib's occur.

Always approach every situation from a position of healthy skepticism. Now, I'm not saying that you should be paranoid. I'm saying that, in this situation, I would look for ulterior motives that might be... less altruistic. It sounds like you're okay and you're just trying to be challenged by your instructor.

Thanks Steve.
I knew someone would bring up the "tail side" of my coin. I saw it as I was writing it but thought rather than make my post even looooonger (I feel I always have long posts) I would let someone else discuss the moderation that is needed (and is needed in all things in my opinion)

 

[Laurentkd]

I would say that you are right where everyone else has been... you don't feel you are "good enough" for your rank. I bet if you asked anyone here 99% would say the same thing. I know that when I had the feeling that it was soon going to be time to test for my 3rd dan and then again my 4th dan I basically sat and told my instructor all the reasons why I didn't think I was good enough. Then he told me I was testing anyway. At that point there was no option to "talk him out of it". He said it, so I did it(as he had already had my 100% trust).
I guess what I am saying is, don't feel bad or weird if you don't feel you are good enough for your rank. That is actually really normal. But, if you trust your instructor's judgment, then know that he must think you are good enough and it is really his opinion that matters as he has the expertise in the field. And then just train your butt off so that you DO feel you deserve the rank you are at (and I bet right about then it will be time to test again!)

 

[Deaf Smith]

(psst, I'm a chick )

faerie2,

Ops... but chick or no, I think spinding time training is more important that what belt one wears. One of the things I like about JKD is no belt rank! On the other hand there is my ego...

How about this. Take the test but don't spend a bunch of time training for the test. Just do what you feel you need to train at and the test can just take care of itself.

Deaf