Resistance

[ejaazi]

Do you think that resistance in Aikido training, when you are the uke, is sometimes a good thing? I don't mean as a way to show someone that you can resist, but as a means to show the person proper technique or to use their hips more. I do this from time to time, and more so with senior students. So far, I have been thanked for "helping" the person correct what they were doing wrong. Maybe that's because I'm in my own dojo. At seminars, where you train with people you don't know, not everyone is as receptive to this kind of training. Keep in mind that I don't do it every single time, but rather once or twice so that the person can see it, feel it, and then continue to work on it throughout their training. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[charyuop]

It depends on who you have in front of you and what you mean as resistance. I give you an example.
Let's take an iriminage as example. I attack Nage and he enters behind me. From there if Nage is an experienced Aikidoka would make no sense in me putting my head on his shoulder, go round and round and the lie down for him. He would learn nothing from it, or better he wouldn't improve his Aikido.
When I do Uke for Sensei or Senpai (very experienced) I do put resistance in my role...of course if I can since they are so good compared to me that it is hard to actually "get them". But they have actually to move my head and have me walk, otherwise I stay there (well more than stay there, turn and attack them). When they start moving me around I try to run away, not that I ever manage to. When they place the other arm in front of me I use my hand to try and block their arms giving them as much resistence as I can. As I said, not much success because they are way too experienced for me to give them what I would like to.
When the technique arrives to the end and I lost all my balance and I feel I am going down, well then I take Ukemi...no use in resisting there (even tho Sensei says I wait too long and I wait for the pain to come before taking Ukemi...and maybe he is right...gotta work on that).
When I work on another guy who is more or less the same level as me I start easy. When I see that he can manage rather well the technique, I start "creating" him some problems. If it is too much, he himslef will ask me to tone it down a little bit...and the same works for him when he is my Uke.

Apart from the fact that if Uke gives you something to work on puts in the practice alot of fun, it is useful too. We all like a Uke that is 100% Uke, but he has no use for our purposes, which is to learn. If Uke tries to block you the technique will no longer go smooth and that is when you tend to start becoming "the hulk" and using all your muscles. An Uke who opposes resistance is the Uke which will force you not only to learn a technique, but to learn to actualle blend with Uke and adjust your position/movements to let the technique flow smooth and not use muscles.

If Iriminage is called the "20 year technique", I think Uke should be called "the lifetime technique". Becoming a good Uke, help perfectly your Nage (not too easy, but not too hard so that Nage won't learn anything), avoiding to get hurt, keeping your center and feeling the whole action to be able to counter...and why not, make very graceful and "good looking" Ukemi is as much a hard task as being a good Nage (if not harder).

 

[Xue Sheng]

I do not nor have I ever trained Aikido but I have spared a few people that did and I can always tell when they have trained with resistance or not.

Those that didn't were fairly ineffective those that did were rather effective.

 

[ejaazi]

The resistance that I speak of, is designed to help people not to develop bad habits that I see spreading in Aikido. I do not resist everytime, and I do not use muscle. I merely show them things like using their hips instead of their arm, or not going directly into the uke to try and throw them. I also give a little resistance just to show the person that they either didn't take my balance, or took it and then gave it back before trying to throw. Too many times, people train with a very compliant uke and develop a false sense of security about their technique. Then, when they work with someone who gives them a little something to reall try to deal with, they can't and they get frustrated. But because they have done the same thing the same way for so long, they don't really understand what the problem is. This is a grwoing problem and the reason why Aikido is not taken seriously.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm not talking muscle either I am talking more along the lines of the uke that jumps or moves to help them do what they are trying to do. Therefore they do not get the feeling of resistance to what they are trying to do which in turn means they have no idea if they are in the right position or not to do the move they are attempting to do.

 

[jks9199]

I suspect part of the lack of joyful acceptance has to do with timing & expectations. When you train with a partner, there should be some agreement between the two of you on the nature of the resistance to expect. If you suddenly start resisting "to show things", especially if you're not the instructor, I may not be very appreciative. Or if you're going along, and then suddenly change the rules without telling me, I may get perturbed.

There is an art to being a good training part in any style. You have to add enough resistance or difficulty without either overwhelming and frustrating me or being too easy. Ideally, it should be a gradual progression, not a series of sudden stair-steps or hurdles.

 

[amir]

Being a GOOD UKE is extremely difficult. Counter to the thoughts of some people , a good Uke is NOT always compliant. A good Uke adjusts his behavior to assist Tori in learning. This means Uke should be better then Tori.

What type of resistance should be applied?
Take me for example, as a rather advanced student (>15 yrs), I can counter almost any attempt of a beginner to employ his techniques, I would hardly need force for that. Is this type of resistance productive? Or will it only frustrate the students to think they are learning inefficient techniques (illogical - I have learnt the same things and they would find it very difficult to avoid my or anothe Sempai employing the same technique....)
Same goes for a very week person practicing with someone who weighs twice as much, and has 30cm or more on him. (I once practiced with such a person in Randori, he kept resisting and I kept letting go for safety, at one point I did not give up, and he held his elbow for the next weeks, but at the time I had practiced 4 or 5 times as long as that guy, and it was very difficult for me).
Should the resistance be at the same speed as the rest of the practice (often slowed down for safety reasons)? or may the resisting person jump up the speed, and what would happen if Tori follows and Uke then can not keep up safely?

Resistance is not a simple thing. Which is the reason I prefer beginners not to practice it amongst themselves. It can be a good practice when employed by a deductive advanced student to a beginner (taking consideration of the beginner limitations), or a beginner resisting with everything to an advanced student, who knows failure is an option, injury is not, provided the teacher watches such practice closely, from experience, the beginner sometimes throws himself into dangerous situations without knowing.


Your descriptions give me the feeling you were writing more about resistence, prior to suffcient pratice. This happens often when practicing with beginners: one of the common situations is them trying to "test the system" by trying to give me hardship. Those beginners often completely miss the situation for the technique, and create a state much better suited to something else. Knowing their need to feel "aikido works", I normally give them a taste of that, often selecting some more "interesting" variation

But the after this "first test", I will explain to my Uke that he has changed the situation, and that I would like to practice as sensei instructed, so would he mind to get back on course.
In some cases, too much force is such a change. For example, if one practices a technique that is only suited to early release from side neck hold, and due to inexperience, the technique is not practiced in a dynamic situation, but rather Uke grabs and then the technique starts. If Uke were to resist with strength, the early release technique would not work, it is not suited to this situation, and a different technique would be called for.
P.S. Personally I love this testing, and definitely prefer it to those who fall to the belt (I can stand and do nothing; they fear the BB around my waist and so throw themselves at the floor anyhow, as if the belt ever did anything).

Amir

 

[ejaazi]

I am not talking about beginners. I am talking about someone who has been training for a little while. I am also not talking about the kind of resistance where you "bear down" on the person. But many times you see people just rushing through the technique and they more or less are just going through the motions. For many people, this has become a normal way of training. Proper resistance can be a tool that wakes up the nage and can help to fix many things, such as them not using their hips, not extending ki, and not using their whole body as one unit. Again, I say that I am not speaking of resisting each and every time, but just enough to call the nage's attention to a particular point of practice that they may to correct.

 

[amir]

I am not talking about beginners. I am talking about someone who has been training for a little while. I am also not talking about the kind of resistance where you "bear down" on the person. But many times you see people just rushing through the technique and they more or less are just going through the motions. For many people, this has become a normal way of training. Proper resistance can be a tool that wakes up the nage and can help to fix many things, such as them not using their hips, not extending ki, and not using their whole body as one unit. Again, I say that I am not speaking of resisting each and every time, but just enough to call the nage's attention to a particular point of practice that they may to correct.

Just going through the motions, without paying attention, is not a good way to practicing. But, is it your role to correct your partner? Only if you are the Sensei or Sempai, otherwise, it might be better if you let them comment.

As I tried to explain earlier. The concept of resistance is wrong, one should be a good Uke, that means giving Tori the best feedback for Tori to progress.
Resisting with strength is only one very limited way of doing that, suitable only for very specific cases. When resisting, one should be sure his response is appropriate to the situation (adjusting the strength to the situation including Kuzushi and Atemi).
Another way of correcting as Uke is being "extremely light", moving with each minute movement of Tori, letting him find out the forces he applies on you actually send you in different directions then the ones he wishes for.
A third way would show Uke his opening by utilizing Keashi-Waza and reversing the situation, or at least letting him see his openings for Atemi.
In other cases, the best feedback Uke can give is to actually lead Tori into a correct technique execution, in this case Uke is not a passive receptacle, he is very active and responsive.


To be a good Uke to someone, you must be significantly more experienced then him, or have about a decade of experience (when being Uke to someone of about equal skill).
Otherwise, it would be best for you not to invent resistance. As I tried to explain in previous posts, most cases of resistance I have seen, from less experienced students, were situations in which Uke actually interfered with the learning process. In some such cases, Uke resisted in a way which altered the entire situation, calling for a different response of Tori, in other cases, Uke resistance actually made him extremely vulnerable to Tori doing anything but the current technique (open for any strike).
One of the worst things I have seen, is beginners, who do not know the techniques well enough, already try to correct each other, and passing judgment on another’s technique, too often based on wrong notions. I have seen students resist when they are out of balance, but since Tori is inexperienced, he froze from the resistance instead of throwing Uke like the stiff they become.


Amir

 

[theletch1]

Resistance, IMHO, is essential to aikido training. The thing is that the resistance must be matched to the type of training and the level of skill of nage. Now, having said that I'd like to make what may not be a very clear cut point. As an experienced aikido-ka I have a good idea where nage is heading the moment we make contact. If I use my knowledge of the technique to resist THAT technique then I'm doing my nage a dis-service. My wife and I will work mostly locks here at the house (not much room for ukemi in the living room) and every once in a while I'll flow ki to keep her from effecting the lock. She knows what's going on and has to change technique. The ONLY reason I was able to stop the technique was because I knew what was coming and gave the specific resistance for that technique. If you're going to give resistance (when it's appropriate) you should give the resistance that an attacker would give if they didn't know what was coming. Your resistance will help your training partner when it is pure resitance, not the tempered with your prior knowledge of what's a second or two in the future.

 

[ejaazi]

Just going through the motions, without paying attention, is not a good way to practicing. But, is it your role to correct your partner? Only if you are the Sensei or Sempai, otherwise, it might be better if you let them comment.

As I tried to explain earlier. The concept of resistance is wrong, one should be a good Uke, that means giving Tori the best feedback for Tori to progress.
Resisting with strength is only one very limited way of doing that, suitable only for very specific cases. When resisting, one should be sure his response is appropriate to the situation (adjusting the strength to the situation including Kuzushi and Atemi).
Another way of correcting as Uke is being "extremely light", moving with each minute movement of Tori, letting him find out the forces he applies on you actually send you in different directions then the ones he wishes for.
A third way would show Uke his opening by utilizing Keashi-Waza and reversing the situation, or at least letting him see his openings for Atemi.
In other cases, the best feedback Uke can give is to actually lead Tori into a correct technique execution, in this case Uke is not a passive receptacle, he is very active and responsive.


To be a good Uke to someone, you must be significantly more experienced then him, or have about a decade of experience (when being Uke to someone of about equal skill).
Otherwise, it would be best for you not to invent resistance. As I tried to explain in previous posts, most cases of resistance I have seen, from less experienced students, were situations in which Uke actually interfered with the learning process. In some such cases, Uke resisted in a way which altered the entire situation, calling for a different response of Tori, in other cases, Uke resistance actually made him extremely vulnerable to Tori doing anything but the current technique (open for any strike).
One of the worst things I have seen, is beginners, who do not know the techniques well enough, already try to correct each other, and passing judgment on another’s technique, too often based on wrong notions. I have seen students resist when they are out of balance, but since Tori is inexperienced, he froze from the resistance instead of throwing Uke like the stiff they become.


Amir

I want to try and be very clear, that I am talking about reistance that is designed to awaken the nage's movements. It is not a way of showing the nage how strong I can be or that I can resist their technique no matter what they do. But at a certain level, I use it to show them that they need to use their hip more in trying to execute the technique. Other times it is used to demonstrate how not being in the proper posture, even if just slightly out of place, can weaken a technique.

Once the correction is made and the technique starts to take its proper form, then as uke, I join with the nage and receive the technique in order to avoid injury. Too many times, I have seen senior students who have not worked on these small things throughout their entire time in Aikido. Now we have many Yudansha, who may be Nidans or even Sandans, who can do correct techniques if attacked really hard because they have no tai sabaki, use a lot of muscle, and expect things to just happen because that's all that they are use to. I may grab very tightly or offer minimum resistance at first, but once that has been broken, then I go along for the ride. If you can't get past that first stage, then that is something that needs to be worked on. and for many Aikidoka today, that is something that they have been missing in their training.

 

[amir]

I want to try and be very clear, that I am talking about reistance that is designed to awaken the nage's movements. It is not a way of showing the nage how strong I can be or that I can resist their technique no matter what they do. But at a certain level, I use it to show them that they need to use their hip more in trying to execute the technique. Other times it is used to demonstrate how not being in the proper posture, even if just slightly out of place, can weaken a technique.

Once the correction is made and the technique starts to take its proper form, then as uke, I join with the nage and receive the technique in order to avoid injury. Too many times, I have seen senior students who have not worked on these small things throughout their entire time in Aikido. Now we have many Yudansha, who may be Nidans or even Sandans, who can do correct techniques if attacked really hard because they have no tai sabaki, use a lot of muscle, and expect things to just happen because that's all that they are use to. I may grab very tightly or offer minimum resistance at first, but once that has been broken, then I go along for the ride. If you can't get past that first stage, then that is something that needs to be worked on. and for many Aikidoka today, that is something that they have been missing in their training.

Well, you are again describing just one possible way of resistance, resistance at the starting point of the technique. A good Uke could apply his skills throughout the technique execution.

For example: some technique variations have multiple Kuzushi points, a good Uke might regain his balance and resist if Tori misses any of those points. Or, if you prefer the over-power side: Tori can apply excessive force, and push a soft and sensitive Uke away and out of a technique, instead of achieving the Kuzushi.


Amir

 

[Yari]

Resistance, IMHO, is essential to aikido training. The thing is that the resistance must be matched to the type of training and the level of skill of nage.

I agree

Your resistance will help your training partner when it is pure resitance, not the tempered with your prior knowledge of what's a second or two in the future.

I agree


/yari

 

[charyuop]

I wounldn't underhesitmate the validity of resistance for Uke. If I put some resistence on my Senpai, much more experienced of me, and he needs to adjust to carry out the technique, I can feel on myself what he does. I think that is a learning tool too.

 

[theletch1]

I wounldn't underhesitmate the validity of resistance for Uke. If I put some resistence on my Senpai, much more experienced of me, and he needs to adjust to carry out the technique, I can feel on myself what he does. I think that is a learning tool too.

Very true. One of my instructor's favorite sayings is that he can tell more about a student's technique by feeling it than watching it. I have found that being uke is a great tool for learning technique. Now and then you just have to be a little on the sneaky side with the senior folks and try a little resistance or an ura and see where you land. How else are you gonna learn all those neat little counters?:wink:

 

[morph4me]

Do you think that resistance in Aikido training, when you are the uke, is sometimes a good thing? I don't mean as a way to show someone that you can resist, but as a means to show the person proper technique or to use their hips more. I do this from time to time, and more so with senior students. So far, I have been thanked for "helping" the person correct what they were doing wrong. Maybe that's because I'm in my own dojo. At seminars, where you train with people you don't know, not everyone is as receptive to this kind of training. Keep in mind that I don't do it every single time, but rather once or twice so that the person can see it, feel it, and then continue to work on it throughout their training. What are your thoughts on this?

Not only is it a good thing, but it's essential in the deelopment of good aikido. You have to be able to feel resistance in order to understand how to yield to it and overcome it. I always appreciate being shown where I need improvement, and resistance does just that.

 

[Yari]

... You have to be able to feel resistance in order to understand how to yield to it and overcome it. .....

No resistence = no life = no problem = no situation.

Resistance shows us life, and give "energy" to be able to make a result inbetween parties (the result doesn't have to be nice...).

/Yari

 

[theletch1]

No resistence = no life = no problem = no situation.

Resistance shows us life, and give "energy" to be able to make a result inbetween parties (the result doesn't have to be nice...).

/Yari

Great post. The ability to feel resistance in physical technique is what we practice in the dojo every day. The ability to feel resistance in verbal communication is even more subtle but just as important to ending conflict. Humans are emotional creatures and we react based on the emotions that drive us. With proper training of the mind in the concepts of aiki we can learn to control our own emotions as well as redirect the emotions of others and end the conflict to our satisfaction before we ever have to go to technique.

Your post, Yari, and Tom's before it would be a great start to a thread on just how important it is to be a good uke to learn techniques... although much of that was already touched on at the beginning of this thread.

 

[Hawke]

When I am the Uke I try to forget the technique (both you and the Nage already know what's going to happen) so that I can learn from the technique as well.

For beginners (I know that you didn't mean beginners) I will go along so they can have a feel/idea of what the technique should accomplish.

If I had a partner that changed the scenario, I will change the technique to match that scenario but then we will be doing something different instead of the technique we should be working on.

I do believe resistance is good and necessary as you practice. I also think your partner needs to know this will happen in practice (maybe not the first 3 or 5 times, but will happen).

Among friends (not during class time) I will pull out a rubber knife when we train. This also changes things so we have to adapt to the new situation fast.

When I practice I want my partner to benefit.

 

[Yari]

I came to think about when I teach I sometimes meet students that try and resist 100%. If they try and hold me, I usally say: "thank you", now there is no danger, because all movment has stopped, and I'm stable". This is only true in the situation, but the idea does hit them (mostly ....)

/Yari