Repeated Devestation

[satans.barber]

Hi,

I've been working through the techniques that I need for 1st Dan, and the only one I'm really struggling with is Repeated Devestation, which I'm having to try and learn off a tape that Sensei Cawood made years ago (my instructor has "forgotton" all his 1st dan techniques and I haven't seen the head instructor for 6 months now).

The problem is that when I pin and step out initially, whoever is attacking me is caused to step forwards as I do, since I'm pinning their arm. This seems like a perfectly natural reaction to me, I wouldn't expect the person attacking to simply lean forwards. As I understand it, I'm then meant to step back to my original position, and then forwards with my right foot, mirroring the first elbow strike, however, because I've invariably caused my attacker to step forwards, their left leg is pretty much right behind or close to my left leg at about 10 o' clock, so how can I step back when it's in the way?

On the tape I have, the attacker steps back as as the person doing the technique does to make room, but this doesn't look like a buckle of any kind it looks like piss poor dummying to me.

Is it meant to be a buckle? Am I meant to step around the leg somehow? Are they meant to come forwards at all?

I'm very confused about this one!

Thanks,

Ian.

edit: in teh interests of sourcing material, this is what I'm working off (DivX 5)

http://www.satansbarber.co.uk/files/repd.divx.avi

 

[rmcrobertson]

OK, well, I don't know if this'll help, but here's a) the technique as I first learned it; b) a sketch of common problems.

In response to an attempted "full nelson," attack from behind that has brought your elbows and hands about halfway up, let your hands continue up to deliver delivering two middle-knuckle strikes to the attacker's temples, then step left into a horse stance while dropping two elbows down on their forearms.

From that point, drag your left foot back in to a narrow horse stance while arching your back and executing two downward punches in order to pin the attacker's arms.

Step with your left foot to 1:30 into a left reverse bow, grabbing the attacker's right wrist with your left hand.

Turn to a right forward bow, while simultaneously pulling your left hand down until it is parallel to your left leg and executing a right outward elbow to the attacker's jaw or temple.

Step back into the narrowed horse stance and repeat on the other side.

Common problems include:

1) Mooshing this technique together with Scraping Hooves and Twirling Sacrifice. Long Form 3 helps here, as does keeping the dummy's attack separate for all three attacks: I was taught that the difference is that in SH that full nelson's just starting, in RD they've got your arms part-way up, in TS they've set the nelson and shoved your head down.

2) Not hitting the reverse bow/forward bow stances, or not coordinating the stance changes with pulling the arm down/elbowing.

3) Losing their arms after the first stance-and-elbow...it helps to keep one's elbows in, and to stretch their arm over your right arm, pulling down a little with your left hand, as you step back/then out.

Hope that helps a little...

 

[Thesemindz]

The problem is that when I pin and step out initially, whoever is attacking me is caused to step forwards as I do, since I'm pinning their arm. This seems like a perfectly natural reaction to me, I wouldn't expect the person attacking to simply lean forwards. As I understand it, I'm then meant to step back to my original position, and then forwards with my right foot, mirroring the first elbow strike, however, because I've invariably caused my attacker to step forwards, their left leg is pretty much right behind or close to my left leg at about 10 o' clock, so how can I step back when it's in the way?

Where I train this technique is taught on both sides, and performed that way in the air. However, when doing this technique on the body, we only perform one of the two elbow strikes, and then cover out. The deciding factor of which elbow strike to apply is whether the opponent is shiftiing our weight to the left or right with his full nelson. So if he is shifting my weight to my right, then I would step out with my left and perform the right elbow strike. Do you see what I'm saying? I can't step with my right foot because all my weight has been pre-shifted over that foot.

The nice thing about this technique is that if you time it right, the opponent should be falling into your elbow just at the point of contact. So you step out, causing him to fall forward like you described, and then you pivot your stance and execute the elbow strike, just as he lands. Thus getting an effect similar to two cars hitting head on, rather than one car hitting a parked vehicle.

We also teach that each of these full nelson techniques is against a nelson of increasing intensity, ie. attempted, applied, locked, just as Robert said.


-Rob

 

[dcence]

Hi Ian,

Learning from videos would be very tough.

You know, I don't know what was in Mr. Parker's mind on this technique, but for me a little common sense goes a long way. I would never, ever (well, maybe not ever -- but almost never) step my back into my opponent once I have moved away from them. To me, it makes absolutely no sense for me to get free of the hold, step out and elbow, just to step back into the clutches of my attacker. I would do one side or the other depending upon my best angle and then graft into something else (like 5 swords or Defying the Storm), or get the heck away. I am not going to step back into the guy with my back to him only to let him grab me again, if you know what I mean. This is besides your good point about the attacker's very probably reaction by stepping forward with you.

For me the repetition on both sides is for purposes of coordination and symmetry, not practicality. Take a key from Scraping Hooves, which in the extended version only does the base technique on one side. Some of the techniques teach some both-sidedness, but may not be best performed that way.

Just my thoughts.
Derek

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hi Ian,


For me the repetition on both sides is for purposes of coordination and symmetry, not practicality. Take a key from Scraping Hooves, which in the extended version only does the base technique on one side. Some of the techniques teach some both-sidedness, but may not be best performed that way.

Just my thoughts.
Derek

Amen to that brother. Theres no right way to do a wrong thing.
Sean

 

[jeffkyle]

We were taught also that you are to step out, then back in, then out again.
BUT we were also taught that you can just "cheat" and shuffle your feet into a quick twist stance and then merely unpivot out of the twist stance as you execute the other half of the technique. This looks silly in the air, but if you can make it work it should be effective.
Of course there are many different ways to "cheat" your feet. Play with what works best 4 u.
Hope this helps Ian.

Jeff

 

[Michael Billings]

An idea and the way I execute and teach the technique.

Control the depth of your action by where on the arm your pin is, that is the arm you are not pulling on to pull him into the elbow. Your rotation is within the circle of his arms, and not controlled by his arms. This also prevents his "sticking" to your back. Foot placement also has something to do with this on the initial step. Note: if you keep the left armed pinned where you originally trapped it, then he will stick to your back, as you are not allowing him to do otherwise.

-Michael

 

[satans.barber]

Hmm, I'm glad other people apart from me have struggled with this! Sounds to me like the technique is written just to show how you can go to either side as Derek said, in which case there's no reason for the dummy not to co-operate and step back.

As Michael said, you can lessen/worsen the effect by where you pin the arm, the optimal place seems to be right down at the wrist or fingers. The problem with this is firstly it's easier for the opponent to yank out their hand and secondly if you miss the pin there's less margin for error.

Still, I'll work on it a little more. I can see me adding it into my 'don't really like that, aren't going to fret about it' category next to Scraping Hooves, Encounter with Danger and Courting the Tiger!

Thanks guys,

Ian.

 

[jeffkyle]

Hmm, I'm glad other people apart from me have struggled with this! Sounds to me like the technique is written just to show how you can go to either side as Derek said, in which case there's no reason for the dummy not to co-operate and step back.

As Michael said, you can lessen/worsen the effect by where you pin the arm, the optimal place seems to be right down at the wrist or fingers. The problem with this is firstly it's easier for the opponent to yank out their hand and secondly if you miss the pin there's less margin for error.

Still, I'll work on it a little more. I can see me adding it into my 'don't really like that, aren't going to fret about it' category next to Scraping Hooves, Encounter with Danger and Courting the Tiger!

Thanks guys,

Ian.

U don't like Courting the Tiger? I think that technique is definitely not one of the worst ones out there. It is pretty effective i think.
:asian:

 

[Thesemindz]

Still, I'll work on it a little more. I can see me adding it into my 'don't really like that, aren't going to fret about it' category next to Scraping Hooves, Encounter with Danger and Courting the Tiger!

Duuuuude, Scraping Hooves is da bomb! Do it fast, and hard, and nasty, and I guarantee that your opponent will widen his base and loosen his hold. It hurts! Think about hurting that guy, and you will! I don't think of this particular technique as a strict combo to use, rather, I think it shows us several different points on the opponent's legs where we can strike and cause pain and a change of position to give us a chance to break the hold and counter. Have a friend, make sure it's a good friend or they might take this personally, apply the nelson and then wack him in the shins, heel hook the inside of his knees, and stomp on his feet. He'll loosen up, or your money back.


-Rob

 

[dcence]

A couple of ideas on Repeated Devastation:

(1) Do this technique without grabbing or stepping. Do the first part to thwart the full nelson, then just twist in place with one elbow and immediately turn the other way. Usually the guy will move his head away from the first elbow right into the second one.

(2) In the AKKI we do this -- we combine one half of Scraping Hooves with the other half of Repeated Devastation. Scraping Hoof with the right foot (kick, kick, scrape, stomp), grab their right wrist with your left hand, step out with the left foot, right outward elbow. Kind of combining the best of both worlds... Then I like to add the manipulation of Defying the Storm for good measure.

Derek

 

[Kenpomachine]

A couple of ideas on Repeated Devastation:

(1) Do this technique without grabbing or stepping. Do the first part to thwart the full nelson, then just twist in place with one elbow and immediately turn the other way. Usually the guy will move his head away from the first elbow right into the second one.

(2) In the AKKI we do this -- we combine one half of Scraping Hooves with the other half of Repeated Devastation. Scraping Hoof with the right foot (kick, kick, scrape, stomp), grab their right wrist with your left hand, step out with the left foot, right outward elbow. Kind of combining the best of both worlds... Then I like to add the manipulation of Defying the Storm for good measure.

Derek

Hey, we're not AKKI, but in the UAM, where I used to train, we do the same combination of both techniques.

 

[rmcrobertson]

For what it's worth, my advice is that you first do the technique the way it was written, and work on figuring out why you have difficulty making it work. Then, after that, fiddle, by all means.

 

[pete]

For what it's worth, my advice is that you first do the technique the way it was written...

seems like that depends on who had the pen...

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

seems like that depends on who had the pen...

Who do you think had the pen?

Dark Lord