Relaxed fighting and sparing in the flow state.

[Tony Dismukes]

It's not uncommon to find high-level athletes and fighters who can consistently access this flow state, whether you call it "Mushin" or just "being in the zone." It doesn't mean they aren't focused on winning. It just means they get their conscious mind out of the way of the process of doing so.

What Lerdsilla does is more unusual. He does operate in the flow state, but he does so with playfulness, having fun and being creative. In Muay Thai, Lerdsilla and Saenchai are prime examples of this mindset. In MMA, Genki Sudo used to have a similar mindset. In BJJ, Jeff Glover would be the prime example. In western boxing, Emanuel Augustus sometimes worked in a similar state, although I don't think he was as light-hearted as Lerdsilla or Glover.

 

[TSDTexan]

I like to go by what MMA displays and proves, today....rather than go by obscure single stories, whether true or untrue, a long, long, long, long *** time ago. Like Boxing is even 1/10th of what it has evolved to, today.

You can watch recorded videos of MMA fights every week and make way better assessment for what works better to best, vs. stories. Where are all the great Japanese fighters in today's MMA? They don't like world wide glory for their family name, their school, their style(s), their country and a lot of $$$$$$$$?

The Japanese were doing MMA before the UFC existed. And still are...
The All Time Greatest Japanese Fighters in MMA history | Tapology MMA Rankings

If you look on that list 4 of them have upcoming fights.

But you are deliberately ignoring the past... and that's a bit shortsided. But what works for you isn't what works for everyone.

Human bodies haven't changed. The human body can only attack so many different ways.

The classical methods work for their intended purpose.

What is a failing, is that that the competitive combative sports dont solve all forms of conflict on the street.

Lyoto Machida teaches karate, but has added BJJ to his karate curriculum. He still uses forms. He isn't from a long long long long time ago.

Wonderboy Thomson still teaches traditional karate kata....

Kyokushin dojos all over the world use kata... but they are acknowledged as legitimate because they have added full contact karate to their training methods.

 

[TSDTexan]

It's not uncommon to find high-level athletes and fighters who can consistently access this flow state, whether you call it "Mushin" or just "being in the zone." It doesn't mean they aren't focused on winning. It just means they get their conscious mind out of the way of the process of doing so.

What Lerdsilla does is more unusual. He does operate in the flow state, but he does so with playfulness, having fun and being creative. In Muay Thai, Lerdsilla and Saenchai are prime examples of this mindset. In MMA, Genki Sudo used to have a similar mindset. In BJJ, Jeff Glover would be the prime example. In western boxing, Emanuel Augustus sometimes worked in a similar state, although I don't think he was as light-hearted as Lerdsilla or Glover.

It's that playfulness that I love about Lerdsilla. He is genuinely having fun. There is no ill-will, no anger or rage, or hate. Even while kicking ***.

Sure, you wont find anything Tony, that you have said here that I can disagree with.

 

[paitingman]

It's been my belief that "Zen" martial arts such as Karate and it's offshoots are partially or almost entirely training for a "flow state" in execution of its techniques.

Styles such as Karate and Taekwondo are very technical and use techniques that are very difficult to master. It's a bag of some seriously high precision tools. The calm, Zen, flow state would be very conducive to using these tools.

 

[_Simon_]

Can't be bothered getting into another anti-kata argument. Kata is a very valuable tool. Of course it's not fighting. It's a tool. And it develops alot of skills for that are useful in fighting. Sure it's not necessary, of course. It's a tool. Saying kata is useless for fighting simply because it's not fighting is... hmm.

It's been my belief that "Zen" martial arts such as Karate and it's offshoots are partially or almost entirely training for a "flow state" in execution of its techniques.

Styles such as Karate and Taekwondo are very technical and use techniques that are very difficult to master. It's a bag of some seriously high precision tools. The calm, Zen, flow state would be very conducive to using these tools.

Well said

 

[FriedRice]

The Japanese were doing MMA before the UFC existed.

I didn't say they weren't. That's like saying being old means something significant and better.

And still are...
The All Time Greatest Japanese Fighters in MMA history | Tapology MMA Rankings

https://www.tapology.com/rankings/747-the-all-time-greatest-japanese-fighters-in-mma-history

You do know that Tapology is not the best place to get rankings, right?

If you look on that list 4 of them have upcoming fights.

I did say, where are all the great Japanese fighters, though.

But you are deliberately ignoring the past... and that's a bit shortsided. But what works for you isn't what works for everyone.

I certainly am, when you're counting some olden day, Japanese guy's Boxing record vs. mostly other Japanese Boxers. Since when has Japan been really known for Boxing in modern times.

And when was the last time some Japanese fighter won a title in the UFC, or even Bellator?

Human bodies haven't changed. The human body can only attack so many different ways.

The classical methods work for their intended purpose.

Then prove to me that during the time of this Boxer, Tsuneo "Piston" Horiguchi, there existed the Peek-A-Boo guard. If not, the you're wrong as they've had limited knowledge of techniques back then as compared to now.

What is a failing, is that that the competitive combative sports dont solve all forms of conflict on the street.

Then why did you bring up some dead old guy Boxer and his Boxing record for? Chopsocky can't stop ten 9mm bullets neither, so what's your point?

Lyoto Machida teaches karate, but has added BJJ to his karate curriculum. He still uses forms. He isn't from a long long long long time ago.

And also one of the most boring fighters ever, that gets booed during his fights and usually afterward. Thank God he's no longer in the UFC.

Wonderboy Thomson still teaches traditional karate kata....

Speaking of boring fighters. Notice how he doesn't Karate chop like the way he trains kata when he fights for real?

Kyokushin dojos all over the world use kata... but they are acknowledged as legitimate because they have added full contact karate to their training methods.

What's the point if you don't punch the face. And why do Fighters rarely, if ever train kata? Maybe when they were a kid, and mommy needed some alone time and the dojo needed to pay rent. Karate is great for little kids, but when it's time to fight, they seem to change over to Kickboxing and learning how to Wrestle + BJJ.

 

[Anarax]

The Japanese were doing MMA before the UFC existed. And still are...
The All Time Greatest Japanese Fighters in MMA history | Tapology MMA Rankings

Interesting. I was going to start a thread about Shinya Aoki's style and approach

 

[Anarax]

And also one of the most boring fighters ever, that gets booed during his fights and usually afterward. Thank God he's no longer in the UFC.

Machida left the UFC because Bellator gave him a better offer for a multi-fight contract. Here's the link. The UFC then matched Bellator's offer, but Machida being a man of his word still joined Bellator. Not liking his style is one thing, but he's a pro fighter that had one multi-billion dollar company and one multi-million dollar company bidding trying to get him to sign. He has a huge following and an enormous fan base. Most of the boos happened when the fans didn't like the judges decisions on some of his fights, something he has no control over.

 

[TSDTexan]

Machida left the UFC because Bellator gave him a better offer for a multi-fight contract. Here's the link. The UFC then matched Bellator's offer, but Machida being a man of his word still joined Bellator. Not liking his style is one thing, but he's a pro fighter that had one multi-billion dollar company and one multi-million dollar company bidding trying to get him to sign. He has a huge following and an enormous fan base. Most of the boos happened when the fans didn't like the judges decisions on some of his fights, something he has no control over.

First he didn't like old dusty stories like choki Mutobu etc so I point at modern era Karate fighters who train with kata methods.

Rather then staying on point, he goes into criticism about my offerings that aren't related to the subject matter at hand.

Frankly he had nothing to say about kata for all his words.

I get that he doesn't care for it.

But he really didn't add anything here, other then poopoo on a lot of stuff. Nonsubstansive poopoo.

Would have been nice if he could have pointed to a study that showed bad effects from kata use, or some peer reviewed material showing kata vs non kata groups in developing any subset of skils... and showing why one was better then the other.

 

[FriedRice]

Machida left the UFC because Bellator gave him a better offer for a multi-fight contract. Here's the link.

I know, and very glad he's gone from the UFC.

The UFC then matched Bellator's offer, but Machida being a man of his word still joined Bellator. Not liking his style is one thing, but he's a pro fighter that had one multi-billion dollar company and one multi-million dollar company bidding trying to get him to sign. He has a huge following and an enormous fan base. Most of the boos happened when the fans didn't like the judges decisions on some of his fights, something he has no control over.

His style is running around all day, looking for that perfect, usually SINGLE countering potshot. There are Boxers who do this in Boxing, and they're boring as hell too and rarely gets any fights. He rarely commits to an exchange unless he go trapped while running....or it's around at the last 30 seconds when the horn's about to blow so if he gets taken down, he'd be saved. This is generally why people boo him, unless he knocks someone out. He generally gets booed constantly while he's fighting.

Of course Machida's going to tout his Shotokan Karate, that's his family's legacy. He's not going slap his father & family name in the face. But it doesn't mean that new, aspiring fighters are going to flock to Shotokan Karate in order to become great fighters. They go to Boxing, Wrestling, BJJ, and Muay Thai, in general. Children's Karate classes are what pay the bills, but it doesn't mean that people want to watch that.

 

[FriedRice]

First he didn't like old dusty stories like choki Mutobu etc so I point at modern era Karate fighters who train with kata methods.

Rather then staying on point, he goes into criticism about my offerings that aren't related to the subject matter at hand.

Frankly he had nothing to say about kata for all his words.

I get that he doesn't care for it.

But he really didn't add anything here, other then poopoo on a lot of stuff. Nonsubstansive poopoo.

Would have been nice if he could have pointed to a study that showed bad effects from kata use, or some peer reviewed material showing kata vs non kata groups in developing any subset of skils... and showing why one was better then the other.

Would have been nice if you pointed out which Karate fighters use Karate Kata during their fights.

I refuted what you posted, line by line, and I guess that was too much for you to handle? Kata sells memberships and colored belts; to pay the bills and you know it....because most people aren't up to fighting for real or even spar for knockouts and just want to earn belts.

 

[TSDTexan]

Would have been nice if you pointed out which Karate fighters use Karate Kata during their fights.

I refuted what you posted, line by line, and I guess that was too much for you to handle? Kata sells memberships and colored belts; to pay the bills and you know it....because most people aren't up to fighting for real or even spar for knockouts and just want to earn belts.

you say:
Would have been nice if you pointed out which Karate fighters use Karate Kata during their fights.

My response:
This is moving the goalposts.

And your claim about kata selling memberships, is complete BS... because I don't charge tuition. And their have been a lot of instructors who haven't.

You didn't refute line by line. You stated a lot of person opinions. Facts, and logic, that are on point.

You can cite opinions on point... which doesn't refute.
or
You can cite facts, or employ logic but create strawman arguments and go off point... which also fails to refute.

Of these you have done both, and thus refuted nothing.

 

[TSDTexan]

Would have been nice if you pointed out which Karate fighters use Karate Kata during their fights.

Sometimes, people really misunderstand what kata is, and how it is applied. Kata without understanding it.... is nothing but pretty dancing, or a catalog of techniques, arranged in a long drill. or to quote a old master.

“Kata without bunkai is like a shamisen (3 stringed Okinawan guitar); Nice sound, but empty on the inside.” – Choki Motobu

Proper use of kata teaches Range, Tactics, Targets, Strategies, Body movements (taisubaki) and techniques. But without the two man drills, which are essential... people misunderstand, and thus miss the point.

Kata is Karate, Karate is Kata.
Why do karate people step to the 45° and counterattack?
Because it is taught by the kata. Does it work? Yes, it shows up in mma and its effective.

You criticize Machida as a boring fighter, but my only concern is whether or not its practical and effective.

Karate has demonstrated that it is effective.
Unlike Aikido in MMA (No disrespect to aikido)
while Karate isn't meant for combative sport... it was for defense of self, or others.... it has done well.
Dispite it's old school training methods.

A contributing art to karate is Muy Boran... which uses forms. Not everyone uses them, but they are part of the art.


You are free to criticize that which you don't understand, or dont like, or find boring... but you expose yourself to appearing poorly informed in doing so.

 

[Anarax]

I know, and very glad he's gone from the UFC.

You're glad, but the UFC organization that makes money from his bouts isn't glad. They know the numbers and money he brings in, for many people like seeing him fight.

His style is running around all day, looking for that perfect, usually SINGLE countering potshot.

Having elusive footwork isn't running around, he positions himself in the most advantageous position for himself and the least advantageous for his opponent. Nearly half his fight he's won by KO.

There are Boxers who do this in Boxing, and they're boring as hell too and rarely gets any fights.

Machida gets plenty of fights though, again multi-billion and multi-million dollar companies were fighting over him. He wouldn't be receiving those offers if he wasn't making them money.

He rarely commits to an exchange unless he go trapped while running

He's a counter-fighter. Using footwork when cornered is what many styles teach. Standing there in the pocket and letting your opponent set the tempo isn't a good idea. He fights intelligently by minimizing damage to himself while inflicting damage on his opponent.

He generally gets booed constantly while he's fighting.

That's not true at all. Some fans booed earlier in his career and sometimes when they didn't like the judges decision.

But it doesn't mean that new, aspiring fighters are going to flock to Shotokan Karate in order to become great fighters. They go to Boxing, Wrestling, BJJ, and Muay Thai, in general.

That's not the point I'm making. I'm saying that techniques in kata are used in MMA and there are already pro MMA fighters that use Karate. Have a look at the videos below.

 

[marques]

Masters throughout Korea, Okinawa, and Japan say this is the desired or optimal state for combat.
Sometimes they don't speak on point but in a roundabout veiled manner.
Such as Hwang Kee here.
View attachment 21652

But Flow State is kind of like the place at which the challenge is so high that to succeed, one must have a highly developed skill set under total focus in the moment of now.

There is only so much bandwidth for the brain to process events with.

When the challenge is really extreme, a lot of things get turned off by necessity. The future, the sense of identity, goal settings... winning or losing. They become ghosts forgotten.

And the body is running on intuitive pattern recognition, and responding with a huge amount of muscle memory pathways.

All the countless repetitive drills and movements simply fire off when they match up.

_______

Mushin No Shin or the "Mind of No Mind" state.

The legendary Zen master Takuna Soho said:
The mind must always be in the state of 'flowing,' for when it stops anywhere that means the flow is interrupted and it is this interruption that is injurious to the well-being of the mind. In the case of the swordsman, it means death.
When the swordsman stands against his opponent, he is not to think of the opponent, nor of himself, nor of his enemy's sword movements.
He just stands there with his sword which, forgetful of all technique, is ready only to follow the dictates of the subconscious. The man has effaced himself as the wielder of the sword. When he strikes, it is not the man but the sword in the hand of the man's subconscious that strikes.

Mushin is achieved when a person's mind is free from thoughts of anger, fear, or ego during combat or everyday life.

There is an absence of discoursive thought (chatter) and projections of values or judgment, so the person is totally free to act and react towards an opponent without hesitation and without disturbance from such thoughts.

At this point, a person relies not on what they think should be the next move, but what is their trained natural reaction or what is felt intuitively.

It is not a state of relaxed, near-sleepfulness, however. The mind could be said to be working at a near full capacity of bandwidth, but with no intentions, plans or direction.

In Japanese zen analogy: a clear mind is compared to a still pond, which is able to clearly reflect the moon and trees.

But just as waves in the pond will distort the picture of reality, so will the thoughts we hold onto disrupt the true perception of reality.

A martial artist would likely have to train for many years to be capable of maintained mushin.

This allows time for combinations of movements and exchanges of techniques to be practised repetitively many thousands of times, until they can be performed spontaneously, without conscious thought, thus changing your natural reactions to be more effective in combat or whatever else you may be doing.

If he is capable of truly listening to his teacher, however, he could attain this level in only a few years. Of course it requires a teacher who understands this.

Some masters believe that mushin is the state where a person finally understands the uselessness of techniques and becomes truly free to move. For the first time.

In fact, that person will no longer even consider themselves as "fighters" but merely living beings moving through space.


View attachment 21653

Voilà! This is what I can’t find in other than martial arts or combat sports; and this is why I can’t forget it. Other sports or whatever, not even close. But even in martial arts... hard to find that good place, really.

Anyway, thanks for this, TSD.

 

[_Simon_]

... karate just for kids, kata is just for making money and selling belts, kata being useless in a fight because it's not fighting, bringing up the ol no face punches in Kyokushin...

There's so much narrowness and ignorance here that I just can't take it seriously. Almost feels like a gag.. ? Are ya havin' us on bro?

 

[FriedRice]

you say:
Would have been nice if you pointed out which Karate fighters use Karate Kata during their fights.

My response:
This is moving the goalposts.

How is it moving the goalposts when you don't fight the way you train with your kata?

And your claim about kata selling memberships, is complete BS... because I don't charge tuition. And their have been a lot of instructors who haven't.

Well obviously I was talking about schools with more than 10 students that have to pay rent.

You didn't refute line by line. You stated a lot of person opinions. Facts, and logic, that are on point.

You can cite opinions on point... which doesn't refute.
or
You can cite facts, or employ logic but create strawman arguments and go off point... which also fails to refute.

Of these you have done both, and thus refuted nothing.

I disagree.

 

[FriedRice]

Would have been nice if you pointed out which Karate fighters use Karate Kata during their fights.

Sometimes, people really misunderstand what kata is, and how it is applied. Kata without understanding it.... is nothing but pretty dancing, or a catalog of techniques, arranged in a long drill. or to quote a old master.

“Kata without bunkai is like a shamisen (3 stringed Okinawan guitar); Nice sound, but empty on the inside.” – Choki Motobu

Proper use of kata teaches Range, Tactics, Targets, Strategies, Body movements (taisubaki) and techniques. But without the two man drills, which are essential... people misunderstand, and thus miss the point.

Kata is Karate, Karate is Kata.
Why do karate people step to the 45° and counterattack?
Because it is taught by the kata. Does it work? Yes, it shows up in mma and its effective.

You criticize Machida as a boring fighter, but my only concern is whether or not its practical and effective.

Karate has demonstrated that it is effective.
Unlike Aikido in MMA (No disrespect to aikido)
while Karate isn't meant for combative sport... it was for defense of self, or others.... it has done well.
Dispite it's old school training methods.

A contributing art to karate is Muy Boran... which uses forms. Not everyone uses them, but they are part of the art.


You are free to criticize that which you don't understand, or dont like, or find boring... but you expose yourself to appearing poorly informed in doing so.

I was referring to all the fluff in kata that hardly anybody uses.

 

[FriedRice]

You're glad, but the UFC organization that makes money from his bouts isn't glad. They know the numbers and money he brings in, for many people like seeing him fight.

Didn't sound like they cared that much if they only matched Bellator's offer and didn't try to beat it by a lot to get the contract.

Having elusive footwork isn't running around, he positions himself in the most advantageous position for himself and the least advantageous for his opponent. Nearly half his fight he's won by KO.

That's also called running around.

Machida gets plenty of fights though, again multi-billion and multi-million dollar companies were fighting over him. He wouldn't be receiving those offers if he wasn't making them money.

The UFC is desperate and not making good money. But he still wasn't worth them offering a lot of money. Good riddance.

He's a counter-fighter. Using footwork when cornered is what many styles teach. Standing there in the pocket and letting your opponent set the tempo isn't a good idea. He fights intelligently by minimizing damage to himself while inflicting damage on his opponent.

So is McGrogor, but he doesn't run around all day.

That's not true at all. Some fans booed earlier in his career and sometimes when they didn't like the judges decision.


That's not the point I'm making. I'm saying that techniques in kata are used in MMA and there are already pro MMA fighters that use Karate. Have a look at the videos below.

How many other fighters get boos often for running around all day? Him and other Karatekas, like Wonderbread, what a coincidence.

 

[paitingman]

Didn't sound like they cared that much if they only matched Bellator's offer and didn't try to beat it by a lot to get the contract.



That's also called running around.



The UFC is desperate and not making good money. But he still wasn't worth them offering a lot of money. Good riddance.



So is McGrogor, but he doesn't run around all day.



How many other fighters get boos often for running around all day? Him and other Karatekas, like Wonderbread, what a coincidence.

What's bad about running around besides the entertainment factor?