reality of setting up the gooseneck.

Discussion in 'Security and Bouncers' started by drop bear, Apr 18, 2014.

  1. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    15,709
    Likes Received:
    3,538
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Look it is really hard when a person is fighting back.

    This one is possibly the best set up I have seen so far.

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DI9OmQtfUPU
     
  2. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,036
    Likes Received:
    939
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    As with everything, it depends on the context… the "gooseneck" (we call it Take Ori, or, in another system, Kote Hishigi… both interesting names in and of themselves, when you look at the intended application…) is most commonly used as a security "come-along" hold… which means that the set up here is unrealistic, as it's something that is set up before engagement/contact, rather than after. The set-up here is really done half-way through an MMA-style engage… which is not when such a technique is really used.

    A more realistic set-up would be the following:



    Really, it shouldn't encounter much resistance… it should be applied before you get to that point. If you're already "fighting", as in the clip previously posted, you've missed the timing for such a control. You might get back to it, but it's going to be fairly sub-optimal.

    For contrast, here is a traditional Jujutsu system applying the same idea (the first technique, called Hiki Tate). As you can see, it's fairly similar to the modern security application above, while being a bit more formal in it's execution. Importantly, it should be noted that this is the simple, mechanical form, not the application form… which is a bit different:

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  3. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    15,709
    Likes Received:
    3,538
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Just sneak up behind them and surprise them with it?

    You can get away with that two on one. One on one is tricky

    The slap and trap has a real danger of slipping out by the way. I tend to figure 4 the guy first and then put on the wrist lock.

    Securing the arm is king the lock is a nice addition.
     
  4. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,036
    Likes Received:
    939
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    The set up wasn't from behind, and there was no sneaking up… the later explanations of the mechanics were, but the initial set up was from the front, and involved a push-pull to the shoulders to turn the target first (prior to engagement, or prior to the opponent escalating to physical attacks). Pretty standard security/bouncer tactics, really.
     
  5. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    15,709
    Likes Received:
    3,538
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Wow you are right I missed the first bit.

    That is terrible. Having to catch a loose wrist one hand securing the elbow.

    Also looks like the guy is getting hit.
     
  6. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,036
    Likes Received:
    939
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    There are things I'd do differently, but what is "terrible" to your mind? In terms of looking like the guy is getting hit, I don't know that I see that… do you mean the initial turn? It's semi-solid, but not a "hit", I feel. You might also note that it's highlighted at the beginning of the clip that this hold is applied to passive-aggressors, static-aggressors, and sometimes aggressive-aggressors (that'd be my last-choice option, really… it's best suited to the first two)… but none of those are similar to the set up in the clip you posted.
     
  7. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,036
    Likes Received:
    939
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Okay, you added a bit.

    Not so much, actually. It depends on how it's done… if it's immediate, without hesitation, and with multiple things happening at once (controlling the wrist, coming behind the upper arm, and securing), it's pretty tight.

    Sure… there's multiple ways of achieving it. I'm less fond of the figure four as a beginning, as it's unnecessarily convoluted… but if such a hold fails, the gooseneck is a good fallback.

    Sure… which is what is done in the clip (well, in both of mine, actually… less in yours).
     
  8. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    15,709
    Likes Received:
    3,538
    Trophy Points:
    308

    It is going to look like a punch on a crappy security camera. And for an armlock it will be off the bat without what looks like provocation.

    You can just shoot for an arm drag in op video and from front on looks a bit neater and you really have the arm secure. You can even turn a guy with an arm drag and get into that goose neck. The cross body push just looks like it will open you up and has a higher risk of loosing the arm.

    I will try it on one of the guys to be sure. But they don't give me an even break with these things and chances are they will just pull out of it.
     
  9. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    15,709
    Likes Received:
    3,538
    Trophy Points:
    308
    With the figure 4 I am not really going for a lock just getting hold of the arm. I struggle a bit with using pain compliance and would rather just mechanical force them out. Using pain to torture them if they have upset me.

    Most people don't need to be hurt at all just held.

    The figure 4 is sort of backwards. If I put it behind their back it would become a kimura not a hammerlock.
     
  10. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2009
    Messages:
    14,833
    Likes Received:
    3,269
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    Pueblo West, CO
    The hold doesn't need to be painful. When I apply holds like this (and I do so far more often than I'd like) they start painful, but as soon as the person stops struggling, the pain ends. I maintain the hold without pain, and reapply pain as needed. But then, I'm old, so I'm not interested in trying to brute force them.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    15,709
    Likes Received:
    3,538
    Trophy Points:
    308

    I mostly don't even take the wrist much anymore.

    I don't think the wristlock walks them any quicker generally.
     
  12. seasoned

    seasoned MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2007
    Messages:
    10,625
    Likes Received:
    644
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Somewhere out there
    Great point above. Misusing the pain factor during containment can only work against us in the compliance stages. We always need to be in the position to go +1 or deescalate putting us in better control.
     
  13. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,036
    Likes Received:
    939
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    No, I don't think so… it's quite clearly both hands to the outside of both shoulders… not like a punch at all. As far as "off the bat without what looks like provocation", the technique we're looking at is largely a security hold… in other words, it's applied by security personnel (bouncers, security guards, police etc) in the course of their work… particularly when dealing with persons such as bouncers, it's at their discretion when they want to take physical control (before it gets really violent), and, as it's really not a violent act, it can easily and justifiably be used against someone who's getting 'mouthy'… which is all the provocation needed.

    The problem with an arm-drag is it pulls the other guy towards you… and can easily result in an instinctive immediate launch of an attack. Turning them prevents that. Additionally, an arm drag isn't that secure compared with the video itself. If you're talking about the clip you linked, it is an arm drag that's applied… and that takes longer for the guy to get control of the arm.

    You'd need to realistically drag the opposite arm, otherwise you're opening yourself up to others around you (which doesn't happen in the shoulder-turn)… at which point, you might as well have just done the turn. As far as the push/pull opening you up more… no, I'd disagree with that. If you miss the arm (it's easier to miss with an arm drag, honestly), the other guy is in front, with their back to you… which makes it harder for him to launch an attack… whereas, if you do an arm drag, they're facing you, in range, and able to attack. It's not the safer plan.

    Cool. Just make sure you have a clear understanding of the role-playing necessary for you to genuinely test it (scenario-style, really). If you both have the idea of "I'm going to try this, you try and stop me", that's actually not realistic. But if you do it with "hey, I want to see if this works against a 'drunk, abusive guy' (which is the real world way you'd do it), can you play a drunk guy for me?", then you've got a better chance of understanding it. Ideally, the other guy should be so intent on being abusive that you can apply the turn and hold before he realises you've started to move.

    Cool. I'd suggest that it's still a bit convoluted for that purpose, though… you just need to have control of both the upper and forearm, that's all.

    Yeah… not sure that I'd agree with that… torture ain't that cool. The thing to remember about pain compliance is that it's best used against non-adrenalized (typically non-violent) persons… and is used just to motivate them to do what you need them to do. If you get into the realm of torture, and having the target "upset you", I'd suggest calming yourself before getting to that point. And, as far as just using mechanical force… there's always someone stronger…

    True. The pain is a heightener to the technique, should it be needed… I use it as a suggestion-enhancer… "We're going to walk forwards now" "No!" [pain] "We're going to walk forwards now" "okay…"

    I might point out that, particularly in the first clip I posted (which is the only one really dealing with the subject of this forum, actually), the physical technique is only part of it… the other, essential, aspect is the negotiation once you have the hold secured.

    Oh, I got that. We call it Gyaku Oni Kudaki (Oni Kudaki for the 'standard').

    True… of course, it's not meant to… it's meant to encourage those who don't want to walk that it might be a good idea to go along…
     
  14. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2009
    Messages:
    14,833
    Likes Received:
    3,269
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    Pueblo West, CO
    It's not intended to walk them quicker. It's intended to control them.


    Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.
     
  15. hussaf

    hussaf Green Belt

    Joined:
    May 15, 2010
    Messages:
    178
    Likes Received:
    53
    Trophy Points:
    28
    A really good way to get into a gooseneck (we call it Renkojime) is from the third aikido wrist lock. Now - getting into that wristlock itself outside of the dojo is another matter, lol.

    One emphasis we place on the gooseneck carry along is control of the bad guy's head. Often we teach this (in LEO class) by using the non applying, or far hand, reach up and grab bad guy's collar, pulling him to your shoulder so any head butt attempt would have little room to build power.

    Really though, if someone was very strong and resisting me I would likely stick with locking a shoulder or arm - something bigger and easier to manipulate.
     
  16. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    8,039
    Likes Received:
    4,790
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    There is a faction in prisons that practice DT more than officers do. They look for weaknesses. A common one was escaping the gooseneck. Look at the clips when the good guy has the gooseneck on the bad guy. What an experienced bad guy will do - use his other hand to slap the palm of his goosenecked hand. And he's out and the fight begins. (usually, with the officer one step behind in timing)


    You guys might want to practice using your off hand to grip the fingers - to prevent that "slap out". Otherwise, an experienced felon will get out lickety split. You might think "I'm aware of movement and I'll crank harder, move or whatever". I thought that, too. It won't work, there's no time, he's out of the hold.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    15,709
    Likes Received:
    3,538
    Trophy Points:
    308

    Yeah attacking the hand is generally the best mechanical out. You are also a bit open to biting spitting and headbutts.
    Mostly because people do this.

    [​IMG]

    Lots of head space not looking at the guy and relying on pain compliance instead of a mechanical defence.

    Just to explain the teams pain compliance is in this case you gooseneck them and then squeeze the lock until they do what you want. Normally this is demonstrated with the victim told to punch the lock holder. He tries lock is cranked on he goes owie and stops.

    Mechanical is physically preventing that strike like blocking the thing. (You can't do that here because your hands are full) I tend to just sneak my forehead into the side of theirs or behind their shoulder.

    If it starts going pear shaped I just forget the whole thing and take their back.

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DI6LximYZIE

    You will notice that is almost goosenecked there.
     

Share This Page