Rant: Placing value in yourself based on others' accomplishments

[miguksaram]

Please help me understand this concept as I have heard it so many times and just don't get it. It goes like this... I don't like kids with black belts because it devaules what I have achieved....OR....I don't like people who have only taken a 12 minute test to get their black belt because it undermines all that I worked for....OR....my black belt accomplishment is far greater than the black belt from XYZ school because I had to test 10 hours to get it and they only test an hour.

People if you are really that insecure about the value of your black belt because of what others have done (or not done) to earn theirs...then by all means take it off and go back to white belt and for the love of whatever you hold sacred try to get more self-esteem out of your lessons this time around. So what if some six year old has a black belt...how does that affect what you learned or how you train? Big deal if Big John took a 60 hour test for his black belt and you took a 20 minute test, what more did he get out of his that you didn't get out of yours?

If there is actual logical explaination please tell me and help me understand all the bitching I keep hearing about this.

 

[CoryKS]

I'd be curious to know if any of those who feel that junior black belts 'devalue' the rank are also among those who post that a black belt is 'just something to hold your pants up'. And if not, do those who espouse this philosophy also devalue the rank by minimizing the achievement? Do those black belt holders who consider themselves 'perpetual beginners' devalue the rank?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think some of it may be based on the lack of differentiation between training.

Here's what I mean...

You can get a BA from Harvard. You can get a BA from a local college. You can get a BA from a 'school' that gives degrees to whomever writes them a check.

Does the BA from the imaginary college make a BA from Harvard less valuable? No. Do people look with disfavor on the BA degree because of people who have one from the lesser school? No.

In other words, people can differentiate between a degree from Harvard (or whatever well-respected school) and the same degree from a less-respected school. They get it.

However, people tend to want to view a black belt as a symbol of equality. That is, a black belt from school A is the same as a black belt from school B. A black belt given a juvenile is the same as black belt given to an adult.

Are they the same? I don't think so. Therefore, it does not bother me that somebody is prancing around in their black belt from McDojo's School of Really Tough Bad Guy Warriors is a better (or worse) martial artist than the black belt from O'Sensei's Serious School of Tough Guys And We Really Mean It. They're different.

 

[terryl965]

Here it is ina nutshell: People tend to believe that to have value as an adult you must be as suporior as one, like the adults that believe a child cannot be in college at age 10, These are the types that undermine the Martial Art world. Believe it or not childern are being recuirted at age 8-10 in all sports not just academically but physically as well. Society needs to remember by the time some childern reach 14 they have the body of a grown man and probaly the mind too. My value has nothing to do with anybody else, I was honored when my GM gave me my BB and said I earned it what others think has no bearing on me or anyone from my school. I give what people have earned and hopefully they will continue to grow and search out what I was not able to teach them, you see I know I am good but I also know there is so much more to learn.

 

[dortiz]

Drives me crazy every time I read that. Your achievment is your achievment, period.

 

[TKD_Father]

Drives me crazy every time I read that. Your achievment is your achievment, period.

Concur

 

[KELLYG]

Reminds me of a bumper sticker that I saw and agree with "Shut up and drive".. I think that people are spending too much time looking around at what other people have around their waists. They just need to "shut up and train". I personally do not care how long it to student A, how old student B is or how long it took them to get their "belt", and it really does not matter what color my belt is. It is just not material to my training. Just give me a spot in line and lets get to work, because what ever my belt level is, there is always something to work on.

 

[dancingalone]

I must be insecure then. I've told this story before on MT. I was talking about tae kwon do with a neighbor of mine and she asked me what my rank was. I told her second dan, and she exclaimed, "My 12 year old niece is one too!"

I no longer mention my rank in TKD publicly. If that makes me shallow, so be it. The problem to me is one of equivalency in the eyes of the public. I know what I went through to earn that 2nd dan in the eighties and I refuse to believe any 12 year went through a course of similar rigor. We've discussed this topic ad nauseum on MT, and I've concluded neither side will ever change their mind about awarding rank to children.

In my case I cannot and will not ever award a dan belt to anyone less than 16-17. Within my area of influence, I will continue to promote the philosophy that a dan belt is a symbol of technical expertise both physically and mentally and one not lightly granted. It is NOT a rank for someone who has 'learned' the basics or one who is now 'ready to truly learn' as I so often read here on MT. I believe a black belt is someone who has the goods, someone with real skill that can be marshalled and projected at any given point. I realize my viewpoint is a declining one. Such a pity.

 

[Steve]

I know that this may come as a shock to you guys, but I think I disagree with almost every one of you.

Speaking to the Harvard BA metaphor, people would have an understandable concern if their specific degree was being devalued. If Harvard began opening satellite campuses throughout the country (or world?) and offering degree programs with let's say "relaxed" standards, this would specifically devalue your own (and everyone's) Harvard degree. This is particularly true if your own degree was earned in relatively close proximity to the perceived (or real) lowering of Harvard's standards.

In the same way, if I earn a black belt in BJJ now, it may be seen as less of an accomplishment than it might have been 10 years ago. And in 10 years from now, the standards may indeed have slipped. This is very specific to my own acheivement and should I ever aspire to teach and in turn promote my own students, it would be to my benefit to protect the value of my acheivement.

While I think that perspective should be maintained, I can completely understand how people can be concerned over the state of grading or promotion within their specific organizations.

 

[ATC]

I know what I went through to earn that 2nd dan in the eighties and I refuse to believe any 12 year went through a course of similar rigor.

The physical is easy and most 12 year olds can run circles around your average 30 year old. My son at 7 years old was running an 8 minute mile and now at 10 is doing it in 7 flat. I cannot do this. We have 6 year olds doing under 10 minutes.

The rigors of the MA are far less demanding on a child than an adult. It is the mental and the philosophical that separate the child from the adult not the physical.

 

[Stac3y]

Most people think a black belt (no matter who is wearing it) means you've got serious skills. The general public is in awe of black belts; they have no clue that there some schools have less stringent or more stringent standards. Most martial artists have their own opinions (correct or not) of different styles or schools, and of the requirements a student must meet to acquire a black belt.

As far as I'm concerned, there are good black belts that come from crappy schools, and crappy black belts that somehow squeaked by in decent schools, just as there are people who graduated from college with excellent educations and people who passed with all Ds and never set foot in the library. I try to assess a person's individual ability based on observation of that person, not on preconceived notions about their school or style. I also tend to respect anyone who has the perseverence to get to the black belt, until/unless they show me that I shouldn't. With any type of education or training, you get out of it what you put into it.

 

[dancingalone]

The physical is easy and most 12 year olds can run circles around your average 30 year old. My son at 7 years old was running an 8 minute mile and now at 10 is doing it in 7 flat. I cannot do this. We have 6 year olds doing under 10 minutes.

The rigors of the MA are far less demanding on a child than an adult. It is the mental and the philosophical that separate the child from the adult not the physical.

We knocked each other around the dojo during the eighties. Blood and bruises expected without question. Belt exams often ended with someone puking or fainting. Blood, sweat, and tears...

I doubt your son is doing that, is he? Different times.

 

[Steve]

The physical is easy and most 12 year olds can run circles around your average 30 year old. My son at 7 years old was running an 8 minute mile and now at 10 is doing it in 7 flat. I cannot do this. We have 6 year olds doing under 10 minutes.

The rigors of the MA are far less demanding on a child than an adult. It is the mental and the philosophical that separate the child from the adult not the physical.

But a 7 year old black belt will not be able to reliably defend himself from an untrained, hostile 30 year old male who has an intent to harm.

 

[Twin Fist]

The physical is easy and most 12 year olds can run circles around your average 30 year old. My son at 7 years old was running an 8 minute mile and now at 10 is doing it in 7 flat. I cannot do this. We have 6 year olds doing under 10 minutes.

The rigors of the MA are far less demanding on a child than an adult. It is the mental and the philosophical that separate the child from the adult not the physical.

I KNOW that your 12 year old cant take the BEATING i took and get back up and still keep going.

PHYSICAL TOUGHNESS

MENTAL TOUGHNESS

kids dont have either

i dont care how far they can run or how fast, they cant take a beating and they cant give a beating and they ARE NOT the same as adult black belts

Dancing alone, you are RIGHT, in the 80s when i started, your BB test didnt end till you either puked or passed out. And then you had to be willing to get back up and continue.

kids cant do that, and anyone that thinks they can is fooling themselves.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Here's something to think about...
Why do we call it a "test" at all? I don't test. I demonstrate what I know. I know what is expected of a given rank, and I know what I can do. If the two don't match, I don't expect to wear that rank. It's less a test than it is a private demonstration.

 

[dancingalone]

Here's something to think about...
Why do we call it a "test" at all? I don't test. I demonstrate what I know. I know what is expected of a given rank, and I know what I can do. If the two don't match, I don't expect to wear that rank. It's less a test than it is a private demonstration.

I call it a test because there's a very real possibility I will fail you if you don't meet the standard I expect to see during a test. As I noted here before, I HAVE failed some students up for their shodan.

Now I don't invite my students to test until I'm (mostly) sure they will pass, but given the depth of my curriculum there's a definite possibility one might freeze up and forget his material or just screw up beyond redemption.

I think failure is part of life. Nothing wrong with failing a test as long as you regard it as just another obstacle in life to surmount later.

 

[Tames D]

It is NOT a rank for someone who has 'learned' the basics or one who is now 'ready to truly learn' as I so often read here on MT. I believe a black belt is someone who has the goods, someone with real skill that can be marshalled and projected at any given point. I realize my viewpoint is a declining one. Such a pity.

My viewpoint as well. A black belt better be able to "bring it on".

 

[Marginal]

The physical is easy and most 12 year olds can run circles around your average 30 year old. My son at 7 years old was running an 8 minute mile and now at 10 is doing it in 7 flat. I cannot do this. We have 6 year olds doing under 10 minutes.

That's true, but the average 30 year old barely moves.

The rigors of the MA are far less demanding on a child than an adult. It is the mental and the philosophical that separate the child from the adult not the physical.

I suppose it depends on how you define that. Can they do the moves? Yes. Can they match up well against an adult? No way. If you go by just ability to perform the moves, it works, but once you factor in using the moves effectively, the kids aren't in the race anymore.

A 5 year old kid that can run a 4 minute mile would totally lose in a fight against an adult. (Even a sedentary 30 year old.) The mental's not there, and they don't really have the physical component either. They lack mass, range, and the strength that an adult can muster.

That said, I think the kids represent a lot of potential once they mature to the point where they can actually employ their techniques effectively. I think the belt's quality is determined by the end product. If the kids are trained well and they're serious about the training, I can't see how they'd devalue the belt in the long run.

For example: A youngish 4th dan (say 20's) that can perform all the techniques vs a 50+ year old 4th dan with a gut who can't actually perform most of the techniques. Would anyone actually take the older guy more seriously as an instructor?

 

[msmitht]

I know that this may come as a shock to you guys, but I think I disagree with almost every one of you.

Speaking to the Harvard BA metaphor, people would have an understandable concern if their specific degree was being devalued. If Harvard began opening satellite campuses throughout the country (or world?) and offering degree programs with let's say "relaxed" standards, this would specifically devalue your own (and everyone's) Harvard degree. This is particularly true if your own degree was earned in relatively close proximity to the perceived (or real) lowering of Harvard's standards.

In the same way, if I earn a black belt in BJJ now, it may be seen as less of an accomplishment than it might have been 10 years ago. And in 10 years from now, the standards may indeed have slipped. This is very specific to my own acheivement and should I ever aspire to teach and in turn promote my own students, it would be to my benefit to protect the value of my acheivement.

While I think that perspective should be maintained, I can completely understand how people can be concerned over the state of grading or promotion within their specific organizations.

Your BJJ reference is way off. As a Purple belt with over 6 years in the art I can tell you that the standards have not slipped. Maybe in some schools that are run by blue belts who wear black belts for "Business" reasons that is the case...but no one stays there very long. If you train for the required 10 years and are proficient then your black belt in BJJ can never be devalued.
As to the TKD reference....well...we have all seen our fair share of bad Black belts both child and adult. If they suck and you promoted them then yes, you do suck and you are bringing yourself down. If they are not from your school then it has nothing to do with you. Get over it.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Most people think a black belt (no matter who is wearing it) means you've got serious skills. The general public is in awe of black belts; .

No.


They aren't.

Not any longer.

That's the problem, and the cause is the situation under discussion right now.It isn't about what our acievements mean to "us", it's the decline in public perception that hurts us, they see the absolute, borderline sacreligious joke that mainstream MA has become and, being the general public without discerning eyes, believe it to be all we have.