Racism in Martial Arts

[Gerry Seymour]

What about ethnic jokes? Are they just racist and wrong? Or does it depend on context and audience?

Obviously no place for them in a dojo. But what about anywhere else?

My thought on them has always been this: If they are using a stereotype to make fun of people, they are usually offensive. If they are making fun of the stereotype, itself, they are usually okay. Of course, there's some grey area, and context matters.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Many people don't understand racism, they know how it is on paper but fail to see it in when it happens in real life. I was volunteered to help someone move yesterday, yeah someone else (my gf) basically told her friends I will help them move.

So I am told they only have a couple of things that are heavy they need help with, which was a lie. They had so much crap that what was expected to take a couple hours took the entire day. So near the end of the move when we are almost done I am shown a funny picture of Ivanka trump in a dress that looks it's made of tin foil and in the next panel there is a burrito wrapped in tin foil. The picture had a caption of who wore it better?

So we laughed about it and my gf said it's funny because she hates Mexicans. I said no, I don't think she does. Then her friend's husband chimed and said "I myself am beginning to start hating Mexicans because where I work they tend to be the stupidest ones." He then went on to imitate them in a very stereotyped Mexican accent and I'm sitting here like. "Oh you motherfucker. Here I am giving my entire day to help you move your **** into your apartment and you go and do that? Hell no." I said nothing, I didn't want to make things more akward then they were already made. I told my gf that he really pissed me off with that comment and she acted completely oblivious about it.

I then explained to her why that was offensive and she just didn't get it. She kept saying like "you need to learn to put things behind you." "You can't get angry at everyone because they don't agree with you." I said "you are belittling this. He didn't say something about something trivial like my clothing or my favorite type of my music. No he insulted my ethnic background! She then said "he didn't mean it that way."

I love when people use that phrase. "I don't mean it that way." Well gee how the hell did you mean it then? Because from where I am standing it sounds like you very well meant what you said. We got invited to eat dinner with them a few days from now and I turned it down.

She is upset but I made it very clear that I am tired of having to deal with her stupid friends who always say stupid things. It's bad enough her family isn't all that amazing either, and they are people are already have to tolerate on holidays.

And I am very tired of white people (usually the person who said it, or related to the person who did it.) telling me what is and what isn't racism. I been dealing with racism since I was a little kid thank you very much so I think I know racism when I experience it. I am not some dumbass who goes around mistaking everything that happens to me as something else. I don't need them to hold my hand and tell me what is and what isn't when I am capable of doing it on my own.

Sorry if this seemed unrelated as it is about racism in martial arts, but I felt the direction that the thread has taken made it more relevant. If I was wrong I again apologize.

By the way, pandas are not Mexican.

 

[thanson02]

On this board, we have discussed transgendered people and LGBT people in martial arts. Now I would like to see what people think about THIS particular issue.

Last Sunday I was at my Wing Chun class. There were four people there total: the Sifu, two other gentlemen, and myself. For those of you who have not seen my previous profile picture, I am a white boy. However, I have daughters who are part black. You will see why I needed to preface the story with that in a moment.

I was doing Chi Sao with the Sifu when I overheard a conversation that the other two gentlemen were having. One man started talking about how he hated the whole "Black Lives Matter" thing, and the other said, "Yeah, I'm sick of those N-words complaining."

I stopped doing Chi Sao immediately and told them I did not appreciate that kind of talk, and it was very offensive to me. They just looked at me funny, then continued doing their practice. Then it dawned on me: "Wow...only 4 people here, and 50% of them said offensive things!"

Personally, I don't feel like training with these gentlemen anymore. My love of my daughters exceeds my love of Wing Chun training, and it is my belief that by hanging out with them, they will probably think I am okay with it after all.

At any rate, I do have other ways in which I could pursue Wing Chun training without having to feel like I sold out any other beliefs that I have.

I'm not asking anyone what they think I should have done. I posted this because the question is, "What would YOU do?"

With that blatant of a blow off, I would have walked..........

I also would have made a review on Yelp and made it clear why I gave it such a low rating.

 

[wingchun100]

With that blatant of a blow off, I would have walked..........

I also would have made a review on Yelp and made it clear why I gave it such a low rating.

There is no school on Yelp to give a rating of. This is an informal gathering that these fellas do on Sundays...which I do NOT do anymore now.

 

[wingchun100]

So recognizable to me. I hope as the years go forward many of us are like Sean. I have always tried to be, and I always will.

What an absolutely wonderful post. Thanks, much, bro.

Thanks. I am not ashamed to admit I was in tears by the time I finished typing it because when I think of memories...well, I don't know if anyone else is like this, but I relive them as if they are going on at that moment. It felt like I was in high school again, with those displays of kindness being so rare.

I wish we could all be Sean too. Hell, I wish I had learned his last name so we could have stayed in touch, because I don't even think he is aware that HE is Sean, meaning he doesn't know what an impact he had. It would be great to see him for a few minutes, just long enough to tell him that story and express what a ripple effect that had throughout my whole life.

So to that old question teachers and others used to ask us when we were kids, "What do you want to be when you grow up?"

I give the answer: "I want to be as kind, if not more so, than Sean."

 

[wingchun100]

I grew up around a lot of racists (KKK member next door, for starters), though fortunately none in the house. There was a deep racial divide at my Jr. High and High schools, but like you I wasn't "in" (and was very shy). So I found it easier to cross that divide and get to know some of the black kids than to deal with the popular kids (many of whom were pretty nice, too, once I got past the bullies). I had a couple of black (color matters in this case) friends in drama class. When they saw me in the halls, they'd do a stereotypical "white guy voice" and call out, "Get out of the hall, n*****!" I'd do my best stereotypical "black guy from the hood voice" and say back, "You betta shut up, honky! I'll cut you!" Happened at least once a week. We never got tired of it. I think it was our way of fighting the stereotypes. Oddly, it never seemed to bother anyone else.

I never did that in high school, but I did with the mother of my twins. (Yes, she is black.) I remember talking with her and her friend David, and we got on the topic of what it was like to grow up as white or black. They made some comment about how black people stick together, referring to the phenomenon that happened a lot in my high school where, if a white and black kid were getting in a dispute, and any other black kids nearby noticed, they would all rush to the aid of the kid getting into it with the white guy.

My ex started to tease me a little. She said, "White people don't stick together like that. Why is that?"

I said, "Oh believe me, there are white people that do, but they wear sheets, and they wouldn't be too happy that I'm dating you."

She and her friend were both laid back enough to laugh at that, but I know there are way more people who WOULDN'T.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I never did that in high school, but I did with the mother of my twins. (Yes, she is black.) I remember talking with her and her friend David, and we got on the topic of what it was like to grow up as white or black. They made some comment about how black people stick together, referring to the phenomenon that happened a lot in my high school where, if a white and black kid were getting in a dispute, and any other black kids nearby noticed, they would all rush to the aid of the kid getting into it with the white guy.

My ex started to tease me a little. She said, "White people don't stick together like that. Why is that?"

I said, "Oh believe me, there are white people that do, but they wear sheets, and they wouldn't be too happy that I'm dating you."

She and her friend were both laid back enough to laugh at that, but I know there are way more people who WOULDN'T.

Christopher Titus (comedian) does a good job with that in a bit in one of his routines called, "I'm Whitey, and I apologize." In it, he basically apologizes for all the crappy stuff done by whites (mostly Americans) to blacks, American Indians, etc. At the end, he gets all the white folks in the room to yell that apology in unison. Then he says, "And to the rest of you, I'd suggest you accept that apology. You see how quickly we get organized? Scares the hell outta me, too!" He's someone who manages to wander into the grey area of racial comedy, and comes out the other side with both humor and some social statements.

 

[wingchun100]

Christopher Titus (comedian) does a good job with that in a bit in one of his routines called, "I'm Whitey, and I apologize." In it, he basically apologizes for all the crappy stuff done by whites (mostly Americans) to blacks, American Indians, etc. At the end, he gets all the white folks in the room to yell that apology in unison. Then he says, "And to the rest of you, I'd suggest you accept that apology. You see how quickly we get organized? Scares the hell outta me, too!" He's someone who manages to wander into the grey area of racial comedy, and comes out the other side with both humor and some social statements.

There was some comedian (black guy) who was amazed at how people got angry over the phrase "Black Lives Matter."

He said, "What's acceptable then? Black lives exist? Can we say THAT?"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There was some comedian (black guy) who was amazed at how people got angry over the phrase "Black Lives Matter."

He said, "What's acceptable then? Black lives exist? Can we say THAT?"

I think the anger some feel about the phrase is the (inferred) implication that they (the person getting angry) doesn't think they matter. A lot of inferences and implications there. Probably too many to get angry over.

 

[wingchun100]

I think the anger some feel about the phrase is the (inferred) implication that they (the person getting angry) doesn't think they matter. A lot of inferences and implications there. Probably too many to get angry over.

That could be part of it. Another possibility is that the person getting angry thinks the phrase means black lives are the ONLY ones that matter, or that they matter MORE than anyone else. What the angry person is blind to is the fact that the phrase means black lives matter TOO, and such a phrase is necessary because there are far too many people who still disagree with it. Evidence? The man who got shot while putting his hands on his car.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That could be part of it. Another possibility is that the person getting angry thinks the phrase means black lives are the ONLY ones that matter, or that they matter MORE than anyone else. What the angry person is blind to is the fact that the phrase means black lives matter TOO, and such a phrase is necessary because there are far too many people who still disagree with it. Evidence? The man who got shot while putting his hands on his car.

Yeah, unfortunately "Black Lives Matter, Too!" isn't nearly as catchy. It would have been the more accurate statement to fit the sentiment.

 

[wingchun100]

Yeah, unfortunately "Black Lives Matter, Too!" isn't nearly as catchy. It would have been the more accurate statement to fit the sentiment.

That is the line that gets walked, I guess. We need something catchy, but not something that inspires more anger than empathy, but not something that people will ignore, but not...but this...but that...SCREW IT!!! BLACK LIVES MATTER!!!

I mean, I don't know exactly what the discussion was like when the phrase was created, so that is all conjecture.

 

[Ironbear24]

By the way, pandas are not Mexican.

I'm mixed lol.

 

[elder999]

I'm mixed lol.

A black and white Mexican!

 

[wingerjim]

On this board, we have discussed transgendered people and LGBT people in martial arts. Now I would like to see what people think about THIS particular issue.

Last Sunday I was at my Wing Chun class. There were four people there total: the Sifu, two other gentlemen, and myself. For those of you who have not seen my previous profile picture, I am a white boy. However, I have daughters who are part black. You will see why I needed to preface the story with that in a moment.

I was doing Chi Sao with the Sifu when I overheard a conversation that the other two gentlemen were having. One man started talking about how he hated the whole "Black Lives Matter" thing, and the other said, "Yeah, I'm sick of those N-words complaining."

I stopped doing Chi Sao immediately and told them I did not appreciate that kind of talk, and it was very offensive to me. They just looked at me funny, then continued doing their practice. Then it dawned on me: "Wow...only 4 people here, and 50% of them said offensive things!"

Personally, I don't feel like training with these gentlemen anymore. My love of my daughters exceeds my love of Wing Chun training, and it is my belief that by hanging out with them, they will probably think I am okay with it after all.

At any rate, I do have other ways in which I could pursue Wing Chun training without having to feel like I sold out any other beliefs that I have.

I'm not asking anyone what they think I should have done. I posted this because the question is, "What would YOU do?"

I would probably do the same as you and let them know this is no place for this kind of talk or language. I have trained with men and women from a large number of backgrounds and can say I have never experienced anything like you described. Funny thing is that in the US most practitioners of Asian Martial Arts are not of Asian decent, so why would a racists in the US study a martial art from China, Japan, Korea, etc? Interesting they would train and trust, possibility with their life, an art created by someone so different from them that they are likely racist against that person.

 

[Ironbear24]

Christopher Titus (comedian) does a good job with that in a bit in one of his routines called, "I'm Whitey, and I apologize." In it, he basically apologizes for all the crappy stuff done by whites (mostly Americans) to blacks, American Indians, etc. At the end, he gets all the white folks in the room to yell that apology in unison. Then he says, "And to the rest of you, I'd suggest you accept that apology. You see how quickly we get organized? Scares the hell outta me, too!" He's someone who manages to wander into the grey area of racial comedy, and comes out the other side with both humor and some social statements.

Yeah I know what you mean but I don't understand why some people get offended at the phrase black lives matter. For example the immediate response is all lives matter, well no **** all lives matter but black people happen to be the victims of police brutality at an alarming rate.

It's like if a house is on fire and the fire dept is putting it out. People don't run up to the fire men and smugly say "all houses matter."

 

[PhotonGuy]

On this board, we have discussed transgendered people and LGBT people in martial arts. Now I would like to see what people think about THIS particular issue.

Last Sunday I was at my Wing Chun class. There were four people there total: the Sifu, two other gentlemen, and myself. For those of you who have not seen my previous profile picture, I am a white boy. However, I have daughters who are part black. You will see why I needed to preface the story with that in a moment.

I was doing Chi Sao with the Sifu when I overheard a conversation that the other two gentlemen were having. One man started talking about how he hated the whole "Black Lives Matter" thing, and the other said, "Yeah, I'm sick of those N-words complaining."

I stopped doing Chi Sao immediately and told them I did not appreciate that kind of talk, and it was very offensive to me. They just looked at me funny, then continued doing their practice. Then it dawned on me: "Wow...only 4 people here, and 50% of them said offensive things!"

Personally, I don't feel like training with these gentlemen anymore. My love of my daughters exceeds my love of Wing Chun training, and it is my belief that by hanging out with them, they will probably think I am okay with it after all.

At any rate, I do have other ways in which I could pursue Wing Chun training without having to feel like I sold out any other beliefs that I have.

I'm not asking anyone what they think I should have done. I posted this because the question is, "What would YOU do?"

I've never encountered such a problem in the many martial arts schools I've trained at or visited. Just about all of them have been multi-racial with their student makeup and everybody respects each other and from my experience martial arts is all about honor and respecting others and so as I've said, I've never encountered such a problem in the martial arts world.

On the other hand, its somewhat silly now days how just about everything and anything can be called racist somehow or another. Even the game of Chess I've heard some people call it racist because its white vs black and since white goes first that its all about white privilege and all, as silly as that may be.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah I know what you mean but I don't understand why some people get offended at the phrase black lives matter. For example the immediate response is all lives matter, well no **** all lives matter but black people happen to be the victims of police brutality at an alarming rate.

It's like if a house is on fire and the fire dept is putting it out. People don't run up to the fire men and smugly say "all houses matter."

There have been those whose rhetoric on the matter made it appear they felt the full phrase wasn't "Black lives matter too!", but "Black lives matter more!". Mind you, for a black person who is concerned about these events, that's probably true (for all of us, our lives and those of our loved ones matter more, so nothing wrong with that). I just think there has been a backlash against the few with overblown rhetoric on the matter. Most who use the phrase don't mean it as an insult, but a statement of concern.

 

[Steve]

I think the phrase is intended to impart that black lives matter to people who believe that black lives have no value. It's not relative to the value of any other lives.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, unfortunately "Black Lives Matter, Too!" isn't nearly as catchy. It would have been the more accurate statement to fit the sentiment.

Race exclusive campaigns to combat racism seems counter productive.