Racism in Martial Arts

[martialartstutor]

Many people come to us and say "Well, my master came straight from 'insert asian country here' and he is hardcore and legit blah blah blah". We think it is absolutely ridiculous that people can't accept the fact that not all martial arts are asian (there's boxing, sambo, savate ect) and not ALL great martial artists are just asian people. Please also keep in mind that this IS A JOKE, and not intended to offend anyone. But we still see this youtube/forum/blog ect comment literally EVERYWHERE when someone is calling out a particular (asian) martial art on it's effectiveness. We don't care if you trained in the 1970s with a master "Straight from korea" who taught you how to become the next karate kid. What matters is now, not the past. and those schools are very rare.

 

[Koshiki]

Few observations and a question for you...

1. You have six posts on the forums.
2. Four of those threads are threads you started, serving only to link to your own youtube videos...
3. The remaining two posts are comments on your own threads.
4. You have not participated at all in any section of the forums unrelated to your youtube channel.

All of which demands the question:

Are you just here to advertise your Youtube channel? Because, you know, I believe Martial Talk does offer advertising options...

Aside from that, if I'm being honest the video seemed neither enlightening nor humorous...

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm totally lost on this one. I guess that's a good thing in this case. I'm going to assume someone "rubbed you the wrong way" which made you want to post something like this.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Anything that is an epic is inherently racist, because that is what epic means, anyways epic journeys send a very powerful message, and your martial art has more selling power if it can directly tie itself to any given epic. So with the teachings you receive about any given culture, if it is written or told in epic form, there is an assumption that the culture, you are learning about, has a special sumthin sumthin, that the other cultures just don't seem to get. That is the whole point. Does it have a lot to do with who wins the fight in a cage? Nope, nada, and zip; however, you may or may not benefit, in real life, from the cultural tips. It is a new way of thinking, to check out. I wouldn't lose sleep over it, but you are absolutely right.

 

[Buka]

Few observations and a question for you...

1. You have six posts on the forums.
2. Four of those threads are threads you started, serving only to link to your own youtube videos...
3. The remaining two posts are comments on your own threads.
4. You have not participated at all in any section of the forums unrelated to your youtube channel.

All of which demands the question:

Are you just here to advertise your Youtube channel? Because, you know, I believe Martial Talk does offer advertising options...

Aside from that, if I'm being honest the video seemed neither enlightening nor humorous...

Good call, Zack.

 

[Gnarlie]

Many people come to us and say "Well, my master came straight from 'insert asian country here' and he is hardcore and legit blah blah blah". We think it is absolutely ridiculous that people can't accept the fact that not all martial arts are asian (there's boxing, sambo, savate ect) and not ALL great martial artists are just asian people. Please also keep in mind that this IS A JOKE, and not intended to offend anyone. But we still see this youtube/forum/blog ect comment literally EVERYWHERE when someone is calling out a particular (asian) martial art on it's effectiveness. We don't care if you trained in the 1970s with a master "Straight from korea" who taught you how to become the next karate kid. What matters is now, not the past. and those schools are very rare.

Geographic centricity, maybe, but not racism.

I think it is totally reasonable to say, for example, that it is much easier for a Korean or someone who grew up in Korea to understand the inherent values, symbolism, training methods, work ethic and self defence application of Taekwondo than it is for you guys. Koreans have grown up in a culture steeped in Shamanism, Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism, are aware of the Samilshingo and how it relates to their daily lives, and are more likely to be aware of the underlying deeper meaning of what they are practicing. They are also more likely to have paired arts like Taekwondo and Hapkido with tactical training for security services, bodyguarding, door work or military training, for example, therefore are more likely to have experience of training and using their combatives and skill in reality.

I think it is totally reasonable to say that the best training in a particular martial art is likely to be in the country of its origin or with a native of that country. That has nothing to do with racism. It's not impossible for someone outside of that country to understand and teach a martial art, of course, but the preconceptions of culture will limit the degree to which the art can be understood.

 

[Koshiki]

I think it is totally reasonable to say that the best training in a particular martial art is likely to be in the country of its origin or with a native of that country. That has nothing to do with racism. It's not impossible for someone outside of that country to understand and teach a martial art, of course, but the preconceptions of culture will limit the degree to which the art can be understood.

Especially when we're talking, as martialartstutor was, about, say, 1970. Nearly half a century ago, would we perhaps expect the best TKD instructors to be largely, though not entirely in Korea?

Would it perhaps, not be unreasonable to think that perhaps a higher percentage of highly knowledgeable Karate practitioners to be in Okinawa, rather than in the US, where many instructors were ex-military with a year or two of off and on training with a language barrier?

45 years ago, if a guy from California and a guy from Fujian came up to me and both offered to teach me Bagua Zhang, do you think it might not be slightly more likely that the Chinese guy might have been practicing from a young age, with qualified instruction, or do you think that the 1970's quality of Bagua was identical in San Diego, when compared to all of China?

Now, if a Japanese guy and a Filipino guy both claimed to have ancestry steeped in Kali, and opened schools next door to each other, I might trust the quality of the guy from the Philippines slightly more. Why? I think you know, and I think you'd make the same decision. Fun fact: I know three Filipino knife-art instructors. Two are from the US, one is FIlipino. One of the guys fromt he US is pretty good, as far as I can tell, one is very impressive, and can dice me with a training knife about thirty times before I notice. The Filipino guy is kind of terrifying, and both other instructors know this and hold him in the highest esteem.

If a guy who grew up in Bankok in the 70's opened a Boxing next door to a guy from London or New York, do you think it would be unreasonable to guess that the Londoner or New Yorker might have had a chance to have access to better training, to have been around more world class boxers, to have been more part of a community that fostered and had a deep, knowledgable, and skilled lineage of high quality boxing? Now flip that, do you think London or Bankok probably has a more lively Muy Thai scene?

It's not racist, it's acknowledging that culture is not yet fully homogenized across the world, and that when the presence of a martial art is stronger and more deeply rooted in a specific area, people from that area are more likely to have access to better quality training and a wider pool of practitioners from whom to learn and with whom to train. And yes, people from different parts of the world often have different physical features from those from other parts of the world. Again, not racist, just acknowledging peoples' differences in culture and background.

Again, you claim this is a joke, not to be taken seriously. Here's the thing about good humour. It either has to be bizarre and shocking, or have an element of truth that you can poke fun at. Either way, it works best when you start with an actual understanding of the subject matter...

In this case, it might be helpful to understand the difference between the terms "race," "culture," and "nationality of birth."

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Geographic centricity, maybe, but not racism.

I think it is totally reasonable to say, for example, that it is much easier for a Korean or someone who grew up in Korea to understand the inherent values, symbolism, training methods, work ethic and self defence application of Taekwondo than it is for you guys. Koreans have grown up in a culture steeped in Shamanism, Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism, are aware of the Samilshingo and how it relates to their daily lives, and are more likely to be aware of the underlying deeper meaning of what they are practicing. They are also more likely to have paired arts like Taekwondo and Hapkido with tactical training for security services, bodyguarding, door work or military training, for example, therefore are more likely to have experience of training and using their combatives and skill in reality.

I think it is totally reasonable to say that the best training in a particular martial art is likely to be in the country of its origin or with a native of that country. That has nothing to do with racism. It's not impossible for someone outside of that country to understand and teach a martial art, of course, but the preconceptions of culture will limit the degree to which the art can be understood.

I'm not sure that being a native of the country where an art was founded gives you an advantage in understanding the training methods, work ethic, or self-defense application of that art. Understanding the cultural values, symbolism, and language, yes. I guess it depends on how important you consider those cultural factors to be in your practice of the art.

On another note, it is true that some arts haven't spread that much beyond their country of origin. For those arts you might expect an experienced teacher to be a native of that country. Many other arts have been spread worldwide for long enough that you can easily find practitioners and teachers from other countries who are as good as any you would find in the country of origin.

 

[Gnarlie]

Those first three factors are specific to Taekwondo and Korea ie what makes Taekwondo Korean as opposed to it being Koreans doing Karate. How the concepts work together when applying the art is specifically Korean, for example. This may not be the case for other arts, so I will limit my statement to Taekwondo there.

We struggle to understand the meaning of 'Do', and especially what that concept means in the context of self defence. It's clearer for someone me who has grown up with Do as a general life principle in their culture.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Geographic centricity, maybe, but not racism.

I think it is totally reasonable to say, for example, that it is much easier for a Korean or someone who grew up in Korea to understand the inherent values, symbolism, training methods, work ethic and self defence application of Taekwondo than it is for you guys. Koreans have grown up in a culture steeped in Shamanism, Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism, are aware of the Samilshingo and how it relates to their daily lives, and are more likely to be aware of the underlying deeper meaning of what they are practicing. They are also more likely to have paired arts like Taekwondo and Hapkido with tactical training for security services, bodyguarding, door work or military training, for example, therefore are more likely to have experience of training and using their combatives and skill in reality.

I think it is totally reasonable to say that the best training in a particular martial art is likely to be in the country of its origin or with a native of that country. That has nothing to do with racism. It's not impossible for someone outside of that country to understand and teach a martial art, of course, but the preconceptions of culture will limit the degree to which the art can be understood.

OK then, it is blatant, in your face, tribalism, and not racism. My bad. Ha Ha

 

[drop bear]

I must adfmit i like the cook to be the nationally of the food I am eating.

 

[Touch Of Death]

On second thought it is racism, because, epic form also requires you recognize the authorities, on what ever you are talking about, as ordained by God. This has a name, and that is cultural naturalism. We pretty much all suffer from it; so, I am not against exploring other naturalisms.

 

[Gnarlie]

On second thought it is racism, because, epic form also requires you recognize the authorities, on what ever you are talking about, as ordained by God. This has a name, and that is cultural naturalism. We pretty much all suffer from it; so, I am not against exploring other naturalisms.

Please share what you consider to be the definition of the word epic, and the definition of the word racism. I do not understand your posts relating to this, I think because your understanding of those words is different to mine.

How is it racism?

Epic:
relating to poems or legends of a particular culture or nation. That may or may not have anything to do with religion.

Racism:
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

I don't see how stating that an instructor from a particular geographic location is more likely to have access to specific cultural context, skills, and knowledge constitutes racism. The race is incidental, it is the geographic location and national climate that is important here.

 

[Gnarlie]

Here's an example. In Korea, there are Universities with dedicated Taekwondo faculties, where research and training is partially government funded. Within those same universities, there are specialist faculties for security services training. People come out of those faculties with cutting edge knowledge and skill about Taekwondo which just does not exist anywhere in the world, in that those research facilities along with a few others form part of of the crucible where modern applied Taekwondo is developing.

Only people who attend those universities and centres, or people who train with them, have access to that information and skill. Is it racism to want to train with them?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Here's an example. In Korea, there are Universities with dedicated Taekwondo faculties, where research and training is partially government funded. Within those same universities, there are specialist faculties for security services training. People come out of those faculties with cutting edge knowledge and skill about Taekwondo which just does not exist anywhere in the world, in that those research facilities along with a few others form part of of the crucible where modern applied Taekwondo is developing.

Only people who attend those universities and centres, or people who train with them, have access to that information and skill. Is it racism to want to train with them?

No, but the kit and kaboodle is about Korea and its culture, like it is something special. There nothing wrong with that, but let us get real here.

 

[Touch Of Death]

All epics need have a certain criteria, and just for the record, even the concept of time is religious; so, you will never convince me this or that thing is not religious, and epics, happen to be religious.

 

[Tez3]

epic
[ˈɛpɪk]
NOUN

1. a long poem, typically one derived from ancient oral tradition, narrating the deeds and adventures of heroic or legendary figures or the past history of a nation.
   synonyms: heroic poem · long poem · long story · saga · legend ·
   romance · lay · history · chronicle · myth · fable · folk tale · folk story
   • the genre of epics:
     "the romances display gentler emotions not found in Greek epic"
   • a long film, book, or other work portraying heroic deeds and adventures or covering an extended period of time:
     "a Hollywood biblical epic"
     synonyms: epic film · long film · blockbuster
2. informal
   an exceptionally long and arduous task or activity:
   "the business of getting hospital treatment soon became an epic"

ADJECTIVE

1. relating to or characteristic of an epic or epics:
   "our national epic poem Beowulf"
   synonyms: heroic · long · grand · monumental · vast · Homeric ·
   lofty · grandiloquent · high-flown · high-sounding · extravagant · bombastic
   antonyms: understated
2. heroic or grand in scale or character:
   "his epic journey around the world"
   synonyms: ambitious · heroic · grand · arduous · extraordinary ·
   Herculean · very long · very great · very large · huge · monumental
   • informal
     particularly impressive or remarkable:
     "the gig last night was epic"

ORIGIN
late 16th cent. (as an adjective): via Latin from Greek epikos, from epos ‘word, song’, related to eipein ‘say’.

RELATED FORMS
epic (noun)
epics (plural noun)
epic (adjective)



Powered by Oxford Dictionaries · © Oxford University

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Here's an example. In Korea, there are Universities with dedicated Taekwondo faculties, where research and training is partially government funded. Within those same universities, there are specialist faculties for security services training. People come out of those faculties with cutting edge knowledge and skill about Taekwondo which just does not exist anywhere in the world, in that those research facilities along with a few others form part of of the crucible where modern applied Taekwondo is developing.

Only people who attend those universities and centres, or people who train with them, have access to that information and skill. Is it racism to want to train with them?

I don't have a dog in the fight when it comes to TKD, but I thought I'd look up some statistics.

Out of 112 Olympic medals that have been awarded in TKD, Koreans have won 14. That's pretty good - it puts them in first place. The next closest countries are the US and Taiwan with 8 medals each. Still, the fact that 87.5% of the medals have been won by representatives from other countries would seem to indicate that top-level talent is pretty widespread and not limited to Korea.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I don't have a dog in the fight when it comes to TKD, but I thought I'd look up some statistics.

Out of 112 Olympic medals that have been awarded in TKD, Koreans have won 14. That's pretty good - it puts them in first place. The next closest countries are the US and Taiwan with 8 medals each. Still, the fact that 87.5% of the medals have been won by representatives from other countries would seem to indicate that top-level talent is pretty widespread and not limited to Korea.

I should add that the Korean advantage may be decreasing with time as well. In the latest (2012) Olumpics, the Koreans won just 2 out of 32 medals(6%), performing no better than several other countries such as Turkey and China.

 

[Gnarlie]

I don't have a dog in the fight when it comes to TKD, but I thought I'd look up some statistics.

Out of 112 Olympic medals that have been awarded in TKD, Koreans have won 14. That's pretty good - it puts them in first place. The next closest countries are the US and Taiwan with 8 medals each. Still, the fact that 87.5% of the medals have been won by representatives from other countries would seem to indicate that top-level talent is pretty widespread and not limited to Korea.

So far as sport TKD goes, yeah. But there is more than sport...

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