Question: Hostility toward MA???

[Rich Parsons]

As to silly challenges, I was running an informal class for a few weeks as a Brown belt, while the Black belts were on vacation.

This guy walks in and wants to spar me. I try to decline. He just smiles and states that he knew I could not spar or fight him.

I turn to the students and state. I have already lost. If I fight him and loose then you all wonder why I culd not beat him. Yet, we know nothing about his rank or skills or years training. If I get hurt real bad then I loose time off of work and from training. If I beat him then I loose for, how come I could not resolve this issue with out violence. And lastly, If I hurt him bad then he will press charges or take me to court. So no matter how I do this I loose.

I turned to the guy and offered him my solution.

You can leave already knowing I have lost the confidence of the students here, or you can stay until after class, and everyone but the two of us will leave, I will lock the doors, and place the key on bleachers, and then we can spar. No witnesses, so that in court it is only your word versus mine. Your call. He stomed out.

In my opinion, he only wanted to show how good he was in front of a crowd. When I would not allow him those options, he got upset and left.

Techno, Some of my co-workers at previous jobs also thought I was going to come in and kill them some day because I study an art that is not main stream and they did not know about. Silly how people fear the unknown

:asian:

 

[TKD USA]

Well I'm a guy so when sometimes other guys hear I'm in martial arts the older guys say you no that stuff never works. Which is really stupid because it is like saying a can opener can't open cans, MOST martial arts are made for self defense so what they say is really ignorant. The guys that are younger than me think it is really cool and the girls always want me to show them one of my cool kicks but I really don't mind all that attention, but what i'm trying to say is that don't let them get to you.
And to Tony, tell your friend that acting like this is what gives Taekwondo a bad name. I'm talking about the TKD friend of yours

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

It's good to know other females have had the same experiences I have. I specifically asked my husband and anyone close to me who knew I was training again to NOT TELL ANYONE. But they can't resist - it's like my training is likened to their photos of the grandkids. So I get the interest from women and the hostility from men also. I've been challenged - by my own brother, for cryin' out loud! We actually had a little conflict. We were embracing and he turned his hip into me and started to pull me close as though to hip-throw me. I stopped his hip, applied pressure points at the side of the neck and dropped my weight. He bent over backwards - literally. I didn't hurt him, but still he kept giving me the old "How's it goin' buddy" type of jab in the arm after that and insisted that since he has street experience he could kick my a** any time he wanted to.

Any my ex is 4th degree Kenpoka, plus he resents that my/"our" daughter is training in KMA instead of Kenpo - wants her to stop training KMA and just learn from him. She only sees him once or twice per year (he lives 1,000 miles away). Everytime they speak, he asks her stupid questions like, "So why do you call it a dojang?? Everybody knows it's a DOJO. That's stupid - it should just be called one name. I don't like Koreans," blah blah blah.

And all of my inlaws claim there is just no substitute for a good .44 strapped to your side...claim they'd shoot me from 100 yards away while I was still trying to kick them.

Ah well....

I'm sorry, but this ^^^ is just effed up. I always tried to get my ex involed. I would love it if my sisters, mother or any of my brothers would get involved in any type of MA. That'd mean we could share info and always have somone to train with. And what's with the Korean thing anyway??? I don't get it. TKD USA, it doesn't bother me, I just thought it was weird. The only opinions that matter to me are: my family's, my boss', my friend's and my instructor's.

AJ

 

[Flatlander]

I remember in my Kung Fu class I had to spar with this girl who was the same grade as me but I backed off because I was scared of hurting her and I guess I've been brought up that way, so I let her hit me a little. She had great technique and I had a lot of respect for her but I was just afraid I might hurt her. Silly i know and she did get hurt because she accidentally bent her toe back while I blocked one of her kicks. I felt so bad but she amazed me and kept on sparring but I just took even more easy on her!
.

Tony, my friend, please, I mean no ill will here, but, in reading this excerpt from your post, can you see how even this can come off as condescending? Do you think that you did this woman a favour? She may now be walking around with false confidence, thinking that she "held her own', when in fact she did not.

I think that there's no harm in being honest in the spar, Tony. That's why she's there... to learn honestly. You must agree that in order to develop skill, there must be realism associated with the training, right?

Treating women as equals is just that. There are no ifs, buts, or maybes. Afford them the same opportunitites, and don't hold back.

IMHO,

Dan.

 

[shesulsa]

I'm sorry, but this ^^^ is just effed up. I always tried to get my ex involed. I would love it if my sisters, mother or any of my brothers would get involved in any type of MA. That'd mean we could share info and always have somone to train with. And what's with the Korean thing anyway??? I don't get it. TKD USA, it doesn't bother me, I just thought it was weird.

Yeah, I wish others would get involved in martial arts, too - but most of my inlaws just think it's a joke - and I knew that before I started training again. Too hard-headed to change their minds, so I don't try too hard.

And I think the statement my ex made about Koreans is more along the lines of wanting to control a situation he has no control of. I don't really care where a martial art is from - I'm interested in the culture that surrounds the style and the contents and approach of a style in the interest of growth and education.

See, I think that's what MA is supposed to be about - sharing knowledge, finding what works and what doesn't, appreciating culture and traditions, etc. etc. I love to hear about the people who carry arts forward. I just don't know that much about these kinds of things and want to learn so much more...it's all about learning, isn't it? What's wrong with that?

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

Tony, my friend, please, I mean no ill will here, but, in reading this excerpt from your post, can you see how even this can come off as condescending? Do you think that you did this woman a favour? She may now be walking around with false confidence, thinking that she "held her own', when in fact she did not.
I think that there's no harm in being honest in the spar, Tony. That's why she's there... to learn honestly. You must agree that in order to develop skill, there must be realism associated with the training, right?

Treating women as equals is just that. There are no ifs, buts, or maybes. Afford them the same opportunitites, and don't hold back.

IMHO,

Dan.

Much easier said than done. If you were raised the way I was, hitting a girl is a detestible thought. I can't stand to see girls get hit by men. Girl/girl, fine, but I had to knee a girl once while working as a bouncer. I warned her to remove her teeth from my arm, told I was going to knee her, then I did, and knocked the wind out of her. She deserved it, but I still felt bad. Although, sparring a woman--never have, I'm sure the first solid round kick or knee to my ribs would make me less sympathetic re: gender.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

This guy walks in and wants to spar me. I try to decline. He just smiles and states that he knew I could not spar or fight him.

I turn to the students and state. I have already lost. If I fight him and loose then you all wonder why I culd not beat him. Yet, we know nothing about his rank or skills or years training. If I get hurt real bad then I loose time off of work and from training. If I beat him then I loose for, how come I could not resolve this issue with out violence. And lastly, If I hurt him bad then he will press charges or take me to court. So no matter how I do this I loose.

I turned to the guy and offered him my solution.

You can leave already knowing I have lost the confidence of the students here, or you can stay until after class, and everyone but the two of us will leave, I will lock the doors, and place the key on bleachers, and then we can spar. No witnesses, so that in court it is only your word versus mine. Your call. He stomed out.

Well done, Rich. Well done.

Much easier said than done. If you were raised the way I was, hitting a girl is a detestible thought. I can't stand to see girls get hit by men. Girl/girl, fine, but I had to knee a girl once while working as a bouncer. I warned her to remove her teeth from my arm, told I was going to knee her, then I did, and knocked the wind out of her. She deserved it, but I still felt bad. Although, sparring a woman--never have, I'm sure the first solid round kick or knee to my ribs would make me less sympathetic re: gender.

I think that this is the mirror image, perhaps, of what some women (myself included) have to do through in getting past in their training. I have to get past the fact that I've always been taught to be "nice", and that hitting people is wrong. Often, I think, women starting MA training have to learn to hit, and hit hard, before working on their control and other aspects.

It sounds like you, AdrenalineJunky, may have the opposite problem to contend with - training to be OK with hitting women.

It's interesting, I hadn't thought of that before.

ETA:

No. He was hostile because I had the audacity to do something that didn't involve him.

Phoenix44.... sigh... I understand. Especially, in my case, something where I was around men and being friendly with them. Doing something physical. That was the unspoken bit, I think.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Something else that may have been missed:

It has also been my experience that when people considered weak, scrawny, and "helpless" take up a martial art, they often are treated even more contemptuously than when Joe Average takes it up. My theory is this: weak and scrawny people are often considered to hold a certain place in society-people expect to be able to walk over them with no resistance. Kind of like a battering husband who expects his wife to take his abuse. That is the order of things. It was sure that way when I was in school. If a student who is naturally in good shape practices a martial art, it can be seen as building on what he already has, complimenting his gifts so to speak.
However, when a weak kid takes up martial arts, it is almost like being "uppity"-this is where you are in society, get used to it. Any attempt to change that status quo is seen as threatening by those who are stronger. They don't like competition, especially from someone they feel they shouldn't have to compete with. Same with a battered wife. The day she strikes back, it can make her husband feel threatened because he never had to deal with resistance before.

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

I think that this is the mirror image, perhaps, of what some women (myself included) have to do through in getting past in their training. I have to get past the fact that I've always been taught to be "nice", and that hitting people is wrong. Often, I think, women starting MA training have to learn to hit, and hit hard, before working on their control and other aspects.

It sounds like you, AdrenalineJunky, may have the opposite problem to contend with - training to be OK with hitting women.

It's interesting, I hadn't thought of that before.
QUOTE]
When I worked at the bar was when it got bad. I think that someone mentioned realizing that women can be aggressive; well, as a bouncer there is nothing worse than a drunk woman. Well, now that I think about it, two drunk women fighting. Wait a minute, a crowd of drunk women fighting. . .I think you get the point (I was going to mention PMS but I figured one of you gals would swing right through the screen and kick me in the nads). I could be wrong here, but I think most women (non MA) realize that most men won't lay a hand on them. This means they are not afraid of the big scary bouncer guy, oooooh! Chick fights are ruthless. At least guys try to throw blows, chicks scratch and pull hair and kick; and, very generally, try to make your happy places unhappy. Has anyone here ever tried to get a hand, which is tangled up in two feet of hair--so tight that the hand is literally pinned to the other chick's head, out of a head of hair??? It takes about ten minutes. Ten minutes you spend trying to convince the ladies that they should not go back to fighting. More often than not, the untangling method involves a big ripping sound, thus prominently followed by a loud scream. Aggressive, you say?, downright phukkin brutal. Girls scare me.:btg: AJ

 

[Phoenix44]

Girls scare me.

I remember walking home from school as a kid, watching the same boys put their books down at the same street corner every single day, and fight. Just for fun.

Females don't fight for fun. We fight for survival. Those "rules," like no biting-scratching-eye gouging? We just don't get it.

Girls should scare you.

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

I remember walking home from school as a kid, watching the same boys put their books down at the same street corner every single day, and fight. Just for fun.

Females don't fight for fun. We fight for survival. Those "rules," like no biting-scratching-eye gouging? We just don't get it.

Girls should scare you.

Anyone who goes through labor has a much higher tolerance for pain than I do. Could you imagine the conditioning for that one. . .ouch?! And just to confirm, I am extremely afraid of girls. Particularly those I sleep next to. That's partly why I keep two pistols under my bed. Hey, better them than me.:flame: j/k
AJ

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I could be wrong here, but I think most women (non MA) realize that most men won't lay a hand on them. This means they are not afraid of the big scary bouncer guy, oooooh!

I think it varies. Some of us (like me) grew up not exactly as the typical tomboy, but I've had male friends ever since I was a kid. If you're "one of the guys", the possibility of getting hit or hurt, even accidentally, is real. I've never thought a guy wouldn't hit me because I'm a woman, and sometimes I've thought I was more likely to get hit by some jack**s who thought he'd "put (me) in (my) place".

Other women I've met *have* seemed to have been treated differently because of their gender their whole lives. I've been stunned by what some women have said or done in front of men they don't even know, and assumed they'd walk away from a situation just fine. Relying on the "chivalry" of strangers. I think it's nutty.

 

[Cryozombie]

Other women I've met *have* seemed to have been treated differently because of their gender their whole lives. I've been stunned by what some women have said or done in front of men they don't even know, and assumed they'd walk away from a situation just fine. Relying on the "chivalry" of strangers. I think it's nutty.

Hey, I personally am for "Equal Rights for Women"

That... "Im a girl, I can be a raving b---- and no one can do anything" crap doesnt work with me.

I was out with a girl once who tried that crap assuming I would take care of her... she made the guy she mouthed off to mad, he started on me, and I looked at him and said, "Hey man, I'm with you, she's a <explative deleted> nutcase..." and I told her flat out in front of him, "You better shut up before he kicks you in your <explative deleted>" Needless to say she shut up, he left, she started in on me, and I left. Never saw her again. But the point was, I wasnt gonna fight some dude for her, just because she had NO manners or self control. If she had been RIGHT maybe I would have felt differently, but in that case I certainly did not.

 

[Phoenix44]

I could be wrong here, but I think most women (non MA) realize that most men won't lay a hand on them.

Well, imagine you lived in a world with 2 species. Species M is is bigger, stronger, and more aggressive than than the other. Species M holds most of the dominant positions in the worlds of business, higher education, religion, law, and politics. But YOU belong to Species F, the generally smaller, weaker, and less aggressive species. And while most of the individuals of both species are generally OK, when there is inter-species violence, it is almost always Species M who perpetrates the violence against Species F.

Now, as a non-martial artist member of Species F---do you still feel the same way?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hey, I personally am for "Equal Rights for Women"

That... "Im a girl, I can be a raving b---- and no one can do anything" crap doesnt work with me.

I was out with a girl once who tried that crap assuming I would take care of her... she made the guy she mouthed off to mad, he started on me, and I looked at him and said, "Hey man, I'm with you, she's a <explative deleted> nutcase..." and I told her flat out in front of him, "You better shut up before he kicks you in your <explative deleted>" Needless to say she shut up, he left, she started in on me, and I left. Never saw her again. But the point was, I wasnt gonna fight some dude for her, just because she had NO manners or self control. If she had been RIGHT maybe I would have felt differently, but in that case I certainly did not.

I agree
:asian:

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Well, imagine you lived in a world with 2 species. Species M is is bigger, stronger, and more aggressive than than the other. Species M holds most of the dominant positions in the worlds of business, higher education, religion, law, and politics. But YOU belong to Species F, the generally smaller, weaker, and less aggressive species. And while most of the individuals of both species are generally OK, when there is inter-species violence, it is almost always Species M who perpetrates the violence against Species F.

Now, as a non-martial artist member of Species F---do you still feel the same way?

Another nicely-put point, Phoenix44. This is the experience I think a lot of women have had - again, I have often been in the presence (not really "company") of men who I think would like to let me know how much stronger they are than I am - in a very direct way. Needless to say, the men I am friends with and the man I date are NOT this way at all.

But I do think some women expect to be treated differently - for example (massive generalization looming), one friend of mine is from the south, and was raised to be "southern gentry", kind of. She is not suppossed to speak unless spoken to - things like that - with her family (at least the older generation). But she is expected to want to go shopping all the time and do her hair and nails. I think that kind of "women live in one world, men another" can engender the feelings some women might have of no-one laying a hand on them.

Again, the vast majority of women I know live in the world you described - acutely aware that men can (and sometimes *have*) "asserted their dominance" or "put them in their place" or just were a****les.

 

[hedgehogey]

All you guys who say a challenge match is a no win situation are dead wrong.

There've been challengers at my school before.

Now if my teacher accepted the challenge and won, I wouldn't suddenly think of him as a violent, out of control person. All he did was give the guy what he came in and SPECIFICALLY ASKED FOR. This has happened before.

If he accepted and lost I would still respect him a LOT more than if he'd declined for fear of losing. At least he stepped up!

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I guess this is a personal difference, hedgehogey. I have a lot more respect for people - particularly an instructor, who I trust and rely on to take care of everyone training - who can control a situation and not seek physical conflict if it can be avoided.

There are always going to be punks who want to prove something, and go looking for trouble. I think the real Men (and Women) prove themselves by not succumbing to the temptation to teach some punk a lesson, but by being the "bigger" person and defusing the situation. It's not always possible, but those are the people I truly respect. Any fight can have its wild cards. Why indulge some testosterone freaks ego?

At least, that's how I see it.

 

[Flatlander]

All you guys who say a challenge match is a no win situation are dead wrong.

There've been challengers at my school before.

Now if my teacher accepted the challenge and won, I wouldn't suddenly think of him as a violent, out of control person. All he did was give the guy what he came in and SPECIFICALLY ASKED FOR. This has happened before.

If he accepted and lost I would still respect him a LOT more than if he'd declined for fear of losing. At least he stepped up!

So I can then infer that if I declined, I would lose your repect? By my desire to remain non-violent, you would think me less of a man? By the way, to me, challenge matches end up with large degrees of physical harm. I do not spar a "challenger". Only my teacher and brothers in art, where mutual trust exists.

 

[Baoquan]

I turned to the guy and offered him my solution.

You can leave already knowing I have lost the confidence of the students here, or you can stay until after class, and everyone but the two of us will leave, I will lock the doors, and place the key on bleachers, and then we can spar. No witnesses, so that in court it is only your word versus mine. Your call. He stomed out.

Rich - awesome response - i've had this happen in the past, but did not handle it anywhere near as simply or admirably as you did. With your permission, i'd like to remember and use it in future. :asian:

Cheers

Bao