Question About Tae Kwon Do

[Dirty Dog]

Personally, my opinion is that it's a good thing so many kids study taekwondo, just like it's a good thing that so many kids play soccer. The only reason the U.S. has a credible team for the World Cup is because the past 20 years has seen a huge increase in the number of neighborhood kid's soccer leagues. Most of those kids stop playing soccer later in life, but some of those kids keep playing into adulthood...and those adults grow into excellent soccer players precisely because they've been practicing since childhood.

ArchTKD did a fine job of showing why this statement isn't true...

I think we all often hear criticism of martial arts schools that cater to children, but to me this criticism seems misguided, for the same reason that it'd be a misguided criticism about soccer. What are you afraid of, that the U.S. will become a nation where huge fractions of the childhood population have studied martial arts? That some of those students will stick with it and become excellent martial artists later in life?

I don't actually hear this criticism much at all. What I do hear criticized (and agree with) is the practice of giving out baby black belts. Just as your average neighborhood soccer player doesn't deserve a shot at a professional team, neither do they deserve a black belt. Our school has lots of kids. They have a great time. They learn what they're capable of. They do extremely well when they compete against students from other schools, and frequently do so against students of nominally higher rank.
But you won't see them wearing black belts.

I mean, what's the alternative? Imagine we didn't have the "McDojos" (as some people call them). What would that be like? There would be fewer martial arts schools in the U.S. Fewer adults who trained since childhood. Fewer adults who become truly outstanding martial artists. Plus, the fact that every strip mall has a martial arts school just makes it that much easier for adults (like me) to finally discover martial arts. Is that really so bad?

I think it's fantastic that the U.S. is developing a tradition of teaching taekwondo to huge fractions of our childhood population. There's no downside. There's only upside.

A McDojo is not a school that caters to children. A McDojo is a belt factory. "If you can afford it, we will award it." is a reasonable description.

 

[TrueJim]

Actually, I think you just helped proved my point. Why are overseas soccer players so good? It's because they grew up playing soccer as kids. The larger point is, people don't usually become great at any sport by starting as adults...most people who become great at a sport do so by starting as children. Why would martial arts be any different? More kids learning martial arts = more kids who grow up to be adults doing martial arts. More kids learning martial arts = more neighborhood martial arts schools for adults to newly discover martial arts in. It's all upside!

 

[TrueJim]

Fair enough, though I think it's worth pointing out that the meaning of a black belt varies from martial art to martial art. As I understand it, for taekwondo the 1st degree black belt means, "You've studied this long enough to be a competent student now." It's not intended to imply that you're an expert, as it might imply for other martial arts. (It's also worth noting that the whole idea of belts only dates back to about 1880, so it's not like we're talking about some "ancient tradition" from the Orient.)

 

[Dirty Dog]

Fair enough, though I think it's worth pointing out that the meaning of a black belt varies from martial art to martial art. As I understand it, for taekwondo the 1st degree black belt means, "You've studied this long enough to be a competent student now." It's not intended to imply that you're an expert, as it might imply for other martial arts. (It's also worth noting that the whole idea of belts only dates back to about 1880, so it's not like we're talking about some "ancient tradition" from the Orient.)

You will want to be careful with those sweeping generalizations... they're quite likely to be incorrect.
A belt only has any meaning within the school that issued it. You'll be wrong if you try to make assumptions about any rank for the entirety of taekwondo. There is often a significant difference between the skill level of students from different schools who hold the same nominal rank.
Belt ranks have been in use longer than taekwondo has been practiced. Before belt ranks, Japanese arts used (and the more traditional continue to use) the menkyo system.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Actually, I think you just helped proved my point. Why are overseas soccer players so good? It's because they grew up playing soccer as kids. The larger point is, people don't usually become great at any sport by starting as adults...most people who become great at a sport do so by starting as children. Why would martial arts be any different? More kids learning martial arts = more kids who grow up to be adults doing martial arts. More kids learning martial arts = more neighborhood martial arts schools for adults to newly discover martial arts in. It's all upside!

I would say overseas soccer players are so good because soccer is THE sport outside of the US, and the most talented kids are identified and connected to world class coaching/training.

I don't see that happening in your typical dojang, though it happens to an extent in Korea. That hasn't led to a large number of adult martial artists, though there are plenty of adult former martial artists around. Similarly, soccer is probably the most common kids sport in the USA these days, but nearly all of the best athletes choose to pursue the "money" sports by the time they reach high school.

 

[Gnarlie]

You will want to be careful with those sweeping generalizations... they're quite likely to be incorrect.
A belt only has any meaning within the school that issued it. You'll be wrong if you try to make assumptions about any rank for the entirety of taekwondo. There is often a significant difference between the skill level of students from different schools who hold the same nominal rank.
Belt ranks have been in use longer than taekwondo has been practiced. Before belt ranks, Japanese arts used (and the more traditional continue to use) the menkyo system.

There are differences in skill level between students of the same grade within the same school. I guess the belt is a rough indicator of where someone is at in their training, but it's only useful to two people: instructor and student.

Who hasn't compared themselves to other students of the same grade and observed a difference?

Gnarlie

 

[Dirty Dog]

There are differences in skill level between students of the same grade within the same school. I guess the belt is a rough indicator of where someone is at in their training, but it's only useful to two people: instructor and student.

Who hasn't compared themselves to other students of the same grade and observed a difference?

Gnarlie

Agreed. It's a very rough indicator, and only within the system that awarded the belt.

 

[Balrog]

My question is, are there adult practicioners in this art or has this become a style only kids practice? I have yet to see any adults training in these dojangs.

The martial arts industry over the years has shifted to a demographic base that is around 75% under the age of 18 (that was the last range I heard, I stand to be corrected on it).

My school is running just about at that level. I'm looking at my adults and older teens for my new instructor pool.

 

[skribs]

The martial arts industry over the years has shifted to a demographic base that is around 75% under the age of 18 (that was the last range I heard, I stand to be corrected on it).

My school has the following classes:
Kids white and yellow (x2)
Kids purple and orange
Kids green
Kids blue
Kids red
Adult white-orange
Adult green-red
(Then there are some all-kids/all-adult and some specialized skills)

The kids classes are fuller than the adult classes, and the adult classes include teens. I would say that at my school, 75% for under 18 is a low estimate.

 

[WaterGal]

The martial arts industry over the years has shifted to a demographic base that is around 75% under the age of 18 (that was the last range I heard, I stand to be corrected on it).

My school is running just about at that level. I'm looking at my adults and older teens for my new instructor pool.

I'm sure it varies a lot from school to school and style to style, but kids are definitely a major part of the business model for most places. We're 65% kids/35% adults, though some of those adults have pretty spotty attendance. But the MMA school/gym down the block from us is I think pretty much only adults and teens, more of a gym audience, while the McDojo chain place in the next town markets themselves as a place for kids and I've heard their students are almost all grade-school aged or below.

 

[skribs]

I think your combat sports are going to be more likely teens and young adults, while your arts are going to be more kids. Especially if one is a "gym" and the other is a "school"

 

[Metal]

I'm happy to train at a club where the ratio of kids/adults is 50/50 and I'm not talking about adult classes which are 12+. ;-)

I used to train at a club where the adult classes were basically 12+ years and it was only 4 people over 30. While it's fun to train and spar with kids, helping them to improve and so on, it's also pretty boring if you hardly ever get to train with people of your own age or older. And I think this is the biggest problem of the clubs that only have a few adults. If there's hardly any adults then it's hard for those clubs to get new adult members to join or to stay for a longer period of time.

At my old club there were hardly any parents starting since they all see TKD as a kids sport and always say that they won't ever be able to do that. And lots of those people are my age.


At my current club where the age range in the adult training sessions is ranging from 16 to over 70 there are constantly new adult members joining. Either beginners or people who used to do TKD in the past.

So I guess one way to have proper adult classes in the future is making sure that the kids don't quit when they get older. ;-)

 

[Balrog]

I'm sure it varies a lot from school to school and style to style, but kids are definitely a major part of the business model for most places. We're 65% kids/35% adults, though some of those adults have pretty spotty attendance.

I was having a talk with one of the senior masters a while ago and he pointed out something interesting. The slide toward the younger ages has been going on for a while, but within that demographic, we used to get the athletic kids who are competitive and want to really shine. We still get some of those, but now we are getting the couch potatoes because the parents are making them put the game controller down and go do something athletic. Or they're being bullied at school, etc. Either way, the kids come in not really wanting to be there, and we as instructors have now got the additional challenge of changing that mindset.

Interesting times.....