Purpose of naihanchi

[Chizikunbo]

The naihanchi forms were once described to me as examples of defense when your back is to a wall. Therefore, when bringing our hands back, we had to bring them at 180 to our body, i.e, our arms could go to where the backs of our bodies were, no futher. However, another instructor later explained to me that this was not the case, although he did not explain it further.
Can anybody tell me which one is the truth?

I have to ask what is the purpose of any form? People dont question the foot patterns in the other forms as they do in Naihanchi...its just another form, and should be looked at as such...dont generalize it...we dont do that with other forms! For instance saying Naihanchi is against a wall, would be like saying well Kicho Il Bu follows and I Pattern so it is only used for fighting in a grocery store aisle...Its a form, look at it like other forms and it will play out ;-)
--josh

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

I have to ask what is the purpose of any form? People dont question the foot patterns in the other forms as they do in Naihanchi...its just another form, and should be looked at as such...dont generalize it...we dont do that with other forms! For instance saying Naihanchi is against a wall, would be like saying well Kicho Il Bu follows and I Pattern so it is only used for fighting in a grocery store aisle...Its a form, look at it like other forms and it will play out ;-)
--josh

Nice. That's the quote of the week. I couldn't agree more. Tang Soo!

 

[Victor Smith]

Master Jay,

I'm glad those examples were useful to your study. It's interesting what is popping up on youtube. I have a larger personal collection from friends around the world, but they represent a fair sampling of what the art of Seisan encompaes.

The interesting thing is how arts are alive and have to change as instructors grow with them. The kata, kune, hung or form are just structured methods to develop specific energies. The stories are a way to help new students understand a little why they're doing them. The stories have a place in the study, but in time they must be set aside, just as the beginning explanations of what a technique is being used for was a tool to help the student to learn spatially where to place their body/limb and once they develop their movement potential, the study of those movements application potential moves in new places.

Kata's potential has changed a great deal in the last 30 or 40 years. When you break away from the intitial studies you end up with variable answers, what is a technique a series of moves, a single movement or a fractal of that movement?

I.e. is the chambring hand being pulled back to make the other hand strike harder, is that hand being chambered to smash into the ribs of an attacker grabbing you from behind, is the chambering hand slicing across the face or the ribs of an attacker dicing them in the chambering process, is the chambering hand a slicing block against an attack, is the chambering hand one of a series of parry-grab-pull sequences possible?

And of course we haven't discussed the other hand, the role of stepping, stance, etc. or how your alignment, knee release and evey eye focus affect the technique performance. Nor did we discuss which part of the chambering hand first knuckle, middle knuckle or little knuckle are slicing/striking across a specified body part.

In fact the most important thing is an art MUST CHANGE time and time again as each generation tries to get a personal handle on what it must do.

Show me an art that isn't changing? I know many understand their art as it must be cast in stone to pass it along correctly? But all of the seniors chagned that art continually to get to now.

It is the truth that change must occur as an art lives which is the real mission.

But of course what is change? Not just a new movement or a new form, but change that drops someone more effectively.

That forms change is a given because the seniors really didn't do what is necessary to keep their arts unchaging.

But thats another topic.

Thanks for your invitation to visit in January, but teaching for free for 30 years most often ends up in negative cash flow for the arts (by a big margin) and even if my arthritis would let me, it's not in the cards.

These days my focus is totally on my students.

That an occasionally trying to find engaging discussion to make me think.

 

[meanbean]

Martin,
It always blows my mind when I read postings like the one that you made here…

The statement used by many grandmasters and masters of the different martial arts systems that states; “it will take you a lifetime to learn ONE system!” was designed to keep their students from wondering off and joining other schools. After all, if you are my student and find that there is something out there that may be better; your money will stop flowing into my bank account.

Before there were all of these different systems of martial arts, before the different systems splintered apart and became separate associations as in Tang Soo Do, there were simply teachers, students and the bad guy with the sword that was intent on cutting off your head. Your teacher taught you everything that he could to keep that bad swordsman from accomplishing his goal. When you teacher felt that he could teach you no more, he arranged for you to travel to another instructor who had established a reputation for a specific “WAY”. He would send you to this other teacher to learn what you could and then you would return to him and share what you had learned with him. This program of being sent off to other teachers would continue over and over again until you had established enough knowledge and ability to devise your own “WAY”.

Then you would take on disciples and teach them you’re “WAY”. This is how all of the systems that are taught today came to be.

Do you think that KJN Hwang Kee had to spend a lifetime in one system to establish Tang Soo Do? KJN Hwang Kee studied many different systems before he devised his own art and system. By the way, if you check back in Tang Soo Do history you will see that Lee Won Kuk was one of many Koreans that traveled to Japan during the occupation and trained directly under Gichen Funakoshi. Both Lee Won Kuk and Choi Hong Hi earned their Nidan (2nd degree black belt) in Shotokan under Funakoshi prior to returning to Korea.

Lee Won Kuk taught what he learned from Funakoshi to KJN Hwang Kee. Prior to that time, KJN Hwang Kee was teaching Hwa Soo Do. His students didn’t like the Hwan Soo Do and he had a difficult time keeping a consistent enrollment. When He started teaching the material that came from Funakoshi the students were drawn to it and he built his system using that material. That material was known as “Shotokan”.

KJN Hwang Kee did bring his own unique flavor to the system, making it his own, but I can tell you that it didn’t take him a lifetime of study to put it all together.quote]

Firstly, allow me to apologise if you feel offended by any of my comments. They were not intended to disrespect you as a person and there certainly was not any intention of rudeness. My understanding is that this is an open forum and we are free to make our opinions known regardless of rank, which means if someone is a white belt in their art, they too can have words of wisdom here that we can all learn from.

Thankyou for syour response and Sorry to have to disagree with it.
I don't know what experiences you've had with Grandmasters and masters desperate for your custom to keep money flowing into their bank accounts but i find myself constantly learning all the time.....why would i want to 'wander off' then?

Master Penfil, i do not dispute this is how many systems came into being, and I'm sure if i was embarking on the mission to develope my own system (own 'WAY') then what you're saying would apply, but i'm not, and if i were to get to the stage where my grandmaster could teach me no more...then i would be the grandmaster myself and i doubt this will happen.
I am not disputing your historical knowledge on how the TSD system was devised, as i do not have enough knowledge on this myself, but i can only gather that your reason for mentioning that HWAN KEE changed his teaching material to keep students is to re-iterate that embracing other systems is not all bad.....that is not an issue here with me or the style i'm training in? If i was not drawn into TSD Moo Duk Kwan then i wouldn't be doing it and feel no pressure to have to do it if i didn't want to.

I guess this is a subject where there will be a lot of differences of opinions, i am only sharing from my perspective that i am learning so much all the time in my art, and have much more to learn, therefore to begin to learn others would simply either slow down and conflict with what i am currently learning which is working for me.

Regards

Martin


Tang Soo!

 

[Makalakumu]

I understand your frustration...
but what is fundemental to Moo Duk Kwan TSD has been passed down, one doesn't need to cross train in other arts to discover this.

Philosophically, MDK is a pretty deep art. HK devoted entire books to developing his school of martial virtue. Unfortuneately, many of these books are not going to translated into English anytime soon. All of this is very interesting and valuable, but if my intent was to study philosophy, I could just as easily study a number of other books...which just so happen to be the ones that HK studied...and glean as much or more depth. HK was very clever and creative, but he was no Buddha.

Technically, the MDK is pretty shallow. Almost the entire curriculum has been imported form other sources where the context and usage of this or that technique has been preserved. This information was not transmitted during its importation.

I totally respect those who wish to train in more than one art, but if you think you know all there is to know about the one art you study to then study others then you are gravely mistaken.

Let me put it this way. I study Tang Soo Do. That's it. I have trained in a whole bunch of other arts and I have rank in them, but my understanding of those arts is applied back to my TSD training. This multiple perspective view allows me to see what I study in greater depth.

What you are all discussing here which relates to the origin of certain Hyungs is historically interesting, and revealing yet most of which is not known or set in stone, and this does not add anything to what can be passed down and taught to me through the art i study.

This is foolish. This isn't just a discussion about the historical origins of the hyungs, its a discussion about their technical usage and application. It's about learning how to actually use the hyungs to fight...like they were meant to in the first place. All of that wasn't taught in the MDK. Hwang Kee learned the hyungs from books and knew none of the applications. If he had, then the curriculum of TSD would look very different then what it is now...and we would be left with much less philosophy of Martial Virtue.

If you are not getting the knowledge and wisdom through your art then i would question who it is who teaches you.

With a top down hierarchical structure extant in most KMA, I wouldn't necessarily single out your teacher as being solely responsible for the transmission of an art's "knowledge" and "wisdom". Other people set the curriculum and standardize it. Other people choose what they think is important and make people below them do that.

And then, I think you really need to define what "knowledge" and "wisdom" you think you are learning. Pretty much every technique that you would need to defend yourself in most situations can be found in naihanchi. Do you practice this form with that much depth?

Finally, to say without cross training, my hyung will never get beyond interpretive dance is a very silly and empty thing to say. A dancer would not know any application but to simply replicate moves for the sake of it.

Unfortunately, its too true in too many dojangs. Most students have no clue regarding application to their forms and just practice the moves to practice the moves. It's an interpretive dance.

With that being said, lets do a little test, what do you know about naihanchi?

upnorthkyosa

PS - I apologize if all this seems confrontational, it is, but I think we as Tangsoodoin need to be challenged more on the depth of our technical knowledge in order to understand the gaps in our curriculum. I'm not trying to pick a fight or be mean-spirited, I'm trying to help my fellow brothers of the spear.

 

[MBuzzy]

Just as a note, I moved from a Tang Soo Do, unstandardized curriculum into the highly standardized and regimented curriculum of the US SBD Fed...and I must say, the Ill Soo Sik and Ho Sin Sul all come DIRECTLY from the forms. Since I'm currently studying in a federation school, I won't comment further on the federation itself, but their "evolution" has significantly involved applications and some creative thinking in terms of hyung translation. Much more than the TSD curriculum that I trained with in Korea.

With that being said, lets do a little test, what do you know about naihanchi?

UpNorth,

To answer your question....not nearly enough. I believe that we've all heard the stories....fighting with your back against a wall, on a horse, in a rice paddy, a syllabus for ground fighting, etc....who knows what is the actual TRUTH. History can be hard to follow accurately in asian cultures. We were discussing this in my last class....and I feel that whichever of these stories that you subscribe to - if any can yield different applications. There is a lot in the seemingly simple movements of this hyung and depending how you look at it, the interpretation changes DRASTICALLY. Even if you add in that the forms were at one point performed as one can change the interpretation.

Personal opinion....if you can find an application out of a form - that's AWESOME and it doesn't matter to me WHICH story, history, or interpretation you used to do it...if it is a viable technique, you've accomplished something.

 

[Makalakumu]

Personal opinion....if you can find an application out of a form - that's AWESOME and it doesn't matter to me WHICH story, history, or interpretation you used to do it...if it is a viable technique, you've accomplished something.

And that is the PERFECT example as to why I think training in other arts is essential. Learn how to see it from as many perspectives as possible.

 

[robertmrivers]

Hello all

I believe that the kata can be whatever you want them to be. I believe that the applications of the kata must evolve.

But, you MUST understand the ORIGINAL intent of the kata if you are going to evolve the techniques in it. Evolution implies that there is something substantial to evolve FROM.

If you are still executing the middle blocks and down blocks within the form as blocks, if you are still riding a horse, fighting with your back against a wall, or fighting in one of those Okinawan rice patties (have you ever been to Okinawa? No rice patties...not many horses either) then you have absolutely no business trying to figure out what the applications in a form are.

One of the principle concepts in OKinawan karate (and we are talking about OKinawan karate because it is the root art of which everyone is talking about) is the "Kata Matrix". Imagine 10 individual techniques that needed to be recorded for history's sake. These could be written down, video taped, drawn, or reviewed orally. Or they were compiled in physical "book form" (kata/ hyung) where technique 1 is page 1, technique 2 is page 2 etc. The movement from one technique to another is the "turning of the page" or transition. It is this transition that determines the pattern of the form. Everyone is getting too hung up on the pattern. Naihanchi was compiled differently than other kata...that's it. This is why Motobu Choki said Naihanchi is the only kata you need. Nearly every technique found in any of the other kata can be found in Naihanchi. If you are training correctly, ie: not thinking about the pattern, then there is really no difference between Naihanchi 1 and 2 and the other bazillion kata that are done.

Do Naihanchi Shodan and Nidan. Then pick another kata...say Pinan Yondan. Then try to find the commonalities. If you find differences, then you have more to learn. You should be able to translate every technique in any Pinan kata, Passai, whatever to Naihanchi 1 and 2. If you can't, ask yourself why. Also ask why most Okinawan Karate instructors in Okinawa can...

There are so many videos and seminars out there now featuring Okinawan instructors who have trained in the direct lines of the founders of modern karate, yet, nobody seems to be willing to check them out. Everybody would just rather make up their own stuff and pass it on as truth using the "it can be whatever you want it to be" philosophy. It can be whatever you want it to be AFTER you have learned wht it is SUPPOSED to be!! NOBODY in Okinawa practices Naihanchi against a wall. You are trying to figure out what something is based on what it LOOKS like. You can't do this. You have to know the internal principles if you want to get closer to the truth. I ask, why are you practicing this and other false presumptions and defending the teaching of people who DO NOT know the truth when so many people who live, have lived, have trained, still train in the root art from the birthplace of YOUR art keep telling you all over that everything you are doing is taking you in the wrong direction?

I have trained for almost 20 years and have heard it all. I have trained in Motobu Chosei's (son of Motobu Choki) Motobu Kempo for over three years now so that I could get even closer to the truth. Motobu Sensei 's teachings echo every other thing I have learned from my Okinawan karate teachers. So please listen to me...turn around...you're going the wrong way...

Rob Rivers
www.virginiakempo.com

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Sensei Rivers,
Thank you for your input here. There are some who are listening, and others who will hear what you are saying and at some point in their future, will at that time come to understand, and those who will hear what you are saying and choose to think that you are speaking in a language that they don't want to learn.

Change is among the hardest things to take on in the lives of many. I have always maintained an open mind in my martial arts life. If someone had something to share with me that could potentially "make me better tomorrow than I was yesterday", I have always listened and watched to see what they wanted to show me. If it turned out that what they had to share didn’t work, or was flawed, I could, and would thank them just the same and moved on…

If what they had to share made sense, and I could better my way of applying my technique as a result, I would take it and incorporate it into my curriculum.

Meeting and training with Kaiden-Shihan Garner Train brought on (as you are familiar) a huge growth in my martial understanding, but for those here in cyberspace who choose to live in “ONE” dojang and then in front of their computer key board, and choose never to venture out to meet and train with those who have, will forever be stuck in that place of being unaware. If that is where they want to be, that is their right to choose…

One of the association leaders that brought me out to do a seminar for his students said of me; Master Penfil, you are like Morphious from Matrix, and you are holding two pills in your hand, a blue pill that will send you forward with the understanding of what technique is supposed to be, and a red pill that will send you back to thinking that what has been passed down by the Korean instructors from 1945 and on is all that there is, and all that you need to know…

The question becomes; which pill will you take?

It is sad to know that there are so many who would choose the red pill…

When I work with KJN Charles Ferraro, and members of the Mi Guk Kwan I feel good because they have a broad understanding of what is, and what was, due to the leadership that KJN Ferraro has brought to this great association.

I have not worked with, or spent time with SBN Fred Scott since the 1980’s, but I have heard that he has a firm understanding of these principles and concepts in training as well.

I would like to see others come out and share the knowledge of the older systems as well. In time they may…

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Good arguments all, and I don't mean at all to invalidate other styles or deny the origins of TSD hyung. However, I'm still of the opinion that you don't need to study other martial arts in order to gain a better understanding of the hyung in TSD.

Not saying it wouldn't be useful to know the mindset that went into the creation of the form, but study of hyung isn't just learning to perform all the moves perfectly and in sequence. Just from my own experience helping my juniors with anything from il soo sik to ho sin sul to weapon defense, I find myself more and more drawing from the hyung, especially the pyung ahn hyung, to illustrate a point. I've never studied any other martial art, but I'm finding more and more applications, even beyond the ones we practice in class (we have pyung ahn il soo sik, et al., for that express purpose).

Again, not saying it wouldn't be great to learn how the forms came into being, but that seems like too much of an easy solution to me. Real knowledge of one's martial art doesn't come from how many people have taught you, but from how much you've learned and discovered through your own patience and effort. I'm hardly even close to a master, but I'd rather get there the better way than the easier way.

 

[14 Kempo]

Just my two cents ... after spending time with Chosei Motobu Sensei last Sunday, October 7th, I can say the form, although it can be done with your back to a wall, the application of movements is much greater. Yes, throughout the form the hips do not rotate much, if at all, but in reality, when Motobu Sensei was showing bunkai, his hips rotated into proper position for the movements.

As an example, the movement where the left arm is extended to the left side, and the right arm is across the solar plexus was shown as a left outward block of the opponents right punch, using the right arm to back the block, doubling its strength. Bringing the right arm across in this manner not only doubles the power of the block, but makes the shoulders square up and positions the right arm to respond immediately to a follow up left punch that is most likely coming.

There were no ground fighting technics, however, I am one that finds various application for each and every movement, not simply one and therefore I could see how people could apply certain movements to the ground. One of Choki Motobu's fighting concepts was to never move backwards ... ever ... to the extent that he removed the cat stance out of his cirriculum, stating that it was defensive.

That is just one example of the bunkai given by Motobu Sensei. I hope I was able to give you all an image with how I wrote it, but I can't be sure. Oh how much easier is it to show something than it is to explain in in spoken language, which is much easier than is written language.

I'm out ...

 

[DavidCC]

Good arguments all, and I don't mean at all to invalidate other styles or deny the origins of TSD hyung. However, I'm still of the opinion that you don't need to study other martial arts in order to gain a better understanding of the hyung in TSD.

Not saying it wouldn't be useful to know the mindset that went into the creation of the form, but study of hyung isn't just learning to perform all the moves perfectly and in sequence. Just from my own experience helping my juniors with anything from il soo sik to ho sin sul to weapon defense, I find myself more and more drawing from the hyung, especially the pyung ahn hyung, to illustrate a point. I've never studied any other martial art, but I'm finding more and more applications, even beyond the ones we practice in class (we have pyung ahn il soo sik, et al., for that express purpose).

Again, not saying it wouldn't be great to learn how the forms came into being, but that seems like too much of an easy solution to me. Real knowledge of one's martial art doesn't come from how many people have taught you, but from how much you've learned and discovered through your own patience and effort. I'm hardly even close to a master, but I'd rather get there the better way than the easier way.

JT, IMHO, what you are saying about "discovering for yourself" is not a contradiction to what the others wrote, In some sense, the distinction you make between "in your art" and "not in your art" is really artificial... and honestly your assumption that it's any easier is mistaken, it's just a different kind of hard

 

[Makalakumu]

I think that one thing that people need to keep in mind is that studying another art that uses the same forms, especially an art that has a deeper lineal connection, is not neccessarily studying another art. You've only peeled away another layer of the onion.

With that being said, I think that it must be noted that the Korean layer is inheritly limited and full of red herrings. You can practice naihanchi and here lots of deep philosophical concepts from Korean teachers, but as far as the nuts and bolts of what is actually going on, what the techniques were actually intended to do...

Well, that's just another layer of the art that you need to explore.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Greetings, again…
Let me state it like this for JT, and anyone else who doesn’t fully understand the need for cross training in other, older systems of our lineage.

JT,
1) Have you ever met and or trained with KJN Hwang Kee?
2) Do you have you a copy of “Tang Soo Do Soo Bahk Do”?
3) Did you get a chance to read my response to Patrick Kennedy’s thread; When is Tang Soo Do no longer Tang Soo Do?
I did have the opportunity to spend some time with KJN Hwang Kee, I did take the time to ask him (thru his translator) some questions concerning training, and I have a copy of his master text, and use it in my training and teaching.

For someone who wants to follow the grandmaster’s way, you don’t know much about his views or the way that he thought. Read his book, or read my posting to Patrick and you will come to understand that, to KJN Hwang Kee, it is ALL Tang Soo Do.

KJN Hwang Kee wrote:
1.Tang Soo Do (weaponless fighting) began with the first human on earth.
Note: He didn’t write; the first Korean human on earth, he wrote; the “FIRST HUMAN”.

2.Regardless of when and where, combat ultimately originated with Tang Soo Do.
Note: He didn’t write; Regardless of when or where “in Korea”

3.Tang Soo Do is the ultimate art because weapons are temporary instruments at any time and place.
Note; he didn’t end this statement with; time and place “in Korea”.

4.Tang Soo Do itself has no rules and regulations, and is free. It is infinite in technique
Note: He didn’t end this statement with; as long as it comes from a Korean instructor!!!

5.Tang Soo Do is the instinctive martial art of the human, which is the ability to use the body like a weapon.
Note: He didn’t define here; of the KOREAN human.

6.Tang Soo Do is an art eternally inseparable from the human body
Note: He didn’t define here; of the KOREAN human body.

The fact is, JT, without learning what was intended in earlier systems that devised these forms, you are practicing without the true translation of the intent. To practice these hyung with the mind-set that each technique should look perfect, and to do so without the understanding that we have been trying to share with you all along is truly fruitless, but without knowing what we know, you will never come to understand the how or why of this discussion/argument.

Your statement regarding “Better vs. Easier” was ridiculous. It is thru the education that comes from such cross-training that gives you the tools to decipher what we are talking about.

Your statement regarding; not being nearly a "master" yet was completely on the money.

By maintaining your current thought process, when the time comes that Chun Jae Nim C.S. Kim does make you a member of his Kodanja, you will only have “mastered” the basics and hyung as he teaches them, and that is the problem that so many have come face to face with, causing them to leave ITF for greener pastures.

You really need to get out and smell the coffee. KJN Hwang Kee never intended any of us to live in a box, but so many of his followers have broken off and build themselves boxes for students like you to fall into for the purpose of ownership, and nothing more.

Keep training in your box, and stop reading what those of us who know write. You will be much happier that way.

Take the red pill and go back to sleep…

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

(1) No, but I've trained under someone who did and who goes back to train at his old school regularly.

(2) No. You can't learn martial arts from books.

(3) Yes.

(4) I wasn't saying Korean. Heck, I've never trained in Korea and never plan to do so. But if it's all TSD anyway, then why do I need to go outside of TSD?

My main problem with training in martial arts is that, in basics, they are oftentimes very much not the same. The way a karateka moves is not necessarily the way a tangsoodoin will move, and I have seen this from firsthand observation.

By your argument, even if I go to another style, it's no good unless I'm learning directly from the authors of the styles themselves. That's what's ridiculous, sir.

I think you get the wrong picture of my training. I don't just learn "kick and punch," as Master C.S. Kim often calls the wrong goal for a martial artist. I learn hyung only as part of my training, and not even a majority, although the hyung have direct application in every other part. It's not as if the true meaning of the hyung is some mystical, impossibly hidden thing that only a few can grasp. I learn to apply them in il soo sik; I learn to apply them in ho sin sul (although neither of those are limited only to hyung moves). I learn how to defend myself. I learn how to better myself. Your attitude about training, from what I can tell, seems to be that the ultimate goal is to attain more head-knowledge and more body-knowledge, that all you need to do is learn from every respected master and accumulate all this knowledge. No. Self-defense is easy. GM Hwang Kee was right; it is all reducible to the first human. But neither Itosu nor Funakoshi nor whoever else was that first human. So if you don't disqualify them, who it is inarguable learned from others before them, you cannot disqualify either C.S. Kim or my sa bum nim from being able to train me. You are truly very, very disrespectful to TSD, if I take your meaning right in this.

I will take neither your red pill nor your blue pill, sir. They are poison.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

JT,
You are not listening…

It is not my intent to disrespect Tang Soo Do, and I don’t want to cause anyone to feel that I do.

As usual, you are not hearing the message. The message is that it is ALL Tang Soo Do (according to KJN Hwang Kee). Regardless of the system or it’s origin. What all of these seniors on the board have been trying to get you to hear for as long as you have been here has been intended to help you see that, but you won’t allow it to sink in…

I didn’t intend for you to learn Tang Soo Do from KJN Hwang Kee’s book, but to read what KJN Hwang Kee wrote to get a feeling for what he intended us to come to understand. The direction that the Federation has taken over the past couple of decades wasn’t what he would have wanted, and all of the separation has only made matters worse.

Tang Soo Do is my primary system, and has been since before you were born. The depth of understanding that I have established has been shared with TSDist’s all over the country, and for those who I have worked with, it has proven to be a good thing.

As I said in my last post, it isn’t your desire to mover in the direction that the majority of us have, let’s end this here and now… have a nice day.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

(1) GM Hwang Kee was a great man, but he didn't create TSD. I can't speak for what he'd want, having never met him, so I can only glean what I can from one of his students, the president of my federation. It's his vision I'm trying to follow, regardless of how you feel I should go.

(2) You didn't read my post. It's often the case that even the basic movements are different across styles. How can I learn from someone who's telling me to do A when I know to do B for my style? The sense I get from your quote of GM Hwang Kee is that he meant TSD in a general sense. All fighting is inherently TSD, yeah, but I don't think you can leap from that to saying that all fighting styles are part of TSD. If I want to become more skilled at playing the piano, I don't learn how to play a guitar. It's all music, and it all has the same principles behind it, and I may very well benefit from learning how another instrument makes its music, but in the long run...why don't I just practice the piano?

(3) You love to believe you speak for the majority...arrogance is not part of TSD. But if you want to end this debate here and now, fine by me.

 

[Chizikunbo]

The message is that it is ALL Tang Soo Do (according to KJN Hwang Kee).

Indeed sir.
KJN would not have written so often if he did not want to get his point across. JT you are right, you cannot learn system from a book, but there IS much you can learn from one in addition to what you are getting from an instructor.
Reread Master Penfil's post. and then examine TSD. KJN WROTE THESE WORDS FOR ALL TANG SOO DO PRACTICIONERS TO READ AND APPLY, OTHERWISE HE WOULD NOT HAVE WRITTEN THEM, AND THE ARE THERE.
KJN Hwang Kee indeed borrowed from many sources in the formation of his expression of Tang Soo Do, there is Taiji, Shoalin Long Fist (Kung Fu), as well as Japanese and Okinawan Karate.
Grandmaster only had limited access to information when he was forming his Moo Duk Kwan, he had books by Funakoshi which did not tell squat other than form execution and basic techniques, why? Because Funakoshi did not write about it (and he did not know it) and looking at GM Hwang Kee's own writing (i.e. A 50th Anniversary History of The Moo Duk Kwan) we know he learned the Japanese/Okinawan forms from BOOKS. Do you think that is GM had the opportunity/knowledge to understand the original intent of the forms he used he would have applied that knowledge? I bet he would have! The thing is he didn't, he had the superficial understanding made available in books at that time.So he innovated with what he had. Tang Soo Do is unique in its ability to apply knowledge of other systems freely, and still keep true to the art. Indeed, GM Hwang Kee adapted and changed his art as his knowledge increased, look at the SBD forms ;-)

The point it YOU have the book (the hyung) you can choose how to read it, you can look at the cover and assume (the superficial movements, and thus the superficial understanding) or you can read and reason from the book, study it, and gain the its actual contents, which will no doubt greatly increase your technique, and pugilistic ability.

I will close with a question, our ancestors were often treated when ill, with medicine that was more detrimental to their health than it was helpful. Its all they had, but they did try. Just because its all they had does it mean its all we can have as well? I think not.

Step out of the box my friend, its small and cramped in there.

FWIW,
--josh

 

[Chizikunbo]

(1) GM Hwang Kee was a great man, but he didn't create TSD. I can't speak for what he'd want, having never met him, so I can only glean what I can from one of his students, the president of my federation. It's his vision I'm trying to follow, regardless of how you feel I should go.

But you can read the words of instruction he left for students of his art. You again state you want to follow his art, but choose not to apply his philosophy?

(2) You didn't read my post. It's often the case that even the basic movements are different across styles. How can I learn from someone who's telling me to do A when I know to do B for my style? The sense I get from your quote of GM Hwang Kee is that he meant TSD in a general sense. All fighting is inherently TSD, yeah, but I don't think you can leap from that to saying that all fighting styles are part of TSD. If I want to become more skilled at playing the piano, I don't learn how to play a guitar. It's all music, and it all has the same principles behind it, and I may very well benefit from learning how another instrument makes its music, but in the long run...why don't I just practice the piano?

This really is not Tang Soo Do to Brazilian Jujutsu, its Tang Soo Do to Karatedo the hanja/kanji are the same. The movements are very similar, and I know from experience you can appy the principles to your own forms. A low block is a low block, a high block a high block, not much variation, the end result is the same when executing the movement solo, yes?
KJN ysed the information about Okinawa/Japanese karate he had (which was limited thanks to Gichin Funakoshi also having limited knowledge) it was and it Karate and Karate.

(3) You love to believe you speak for the majority...arrogance is not part of TSD. But if you want to end this debate here and now, fine by me.

JT, Master Penfil is not being arrogant. He is legitimately trying the share the knowledge and insight he has gained over a lifetime of study in the art. You and I are no where close to his level of understanding. I have spent hours discussing martial arts with Master Penfil and know this to be true.

In the end, it all comes down to following your path, there are more doors out there, you can choose to go through them or not.

Best wishes in your training.
--josh

 

[robertmrivers]

Nobody is saying that one has to change styles, instructors or that you can't learn things from the forms.

My point is that the forms...in their current forms, were devised a certain way, in a certain pattern, with a set key to unlocking the original intent of the form. If you are practicing these forms, you really should have an understanding of all of this in order to maximize your training with them.

Let's say JT never trained in martial arts. He joins the military. Learns the most kick butt techniques a fighting man could ever learn...he can kill you with his little finger in 25 different ways. Now, JT is going to devise a way of remembering these forms. He chooses to do them in the air against an imaginary opponent. There are so many complex methods, but, he decides to streamline some of the movements so that he can remember them. He has a set of internal "cues" that remind him of where the techniques can change and the "kick buttedness" of the techniques can increase exponentially. Now...imagine some 16 year old is watching JT walk through this imaginary fight sequence. Without knowing JT's internal principles and cues, he tries to decipher what the movements mean and creates his own set of self defense techniques. The techniques will probably work because the kid is creative, but they are not right. He is trying to use stances and techniques based on the form that don't match his personal fighting methodology.

When you are practicing the Pinans or any other OKinawa based form, you are buying into their methodology...at least until you learn what the meanings truly are and what the cues to deciphering the true techniques are.

As an example, how many people start self defense one- steps from the forward stance-down block-hand chambered on the hip position? This is the prime example of how someone saw the kata and interpreted this move incorrectly. Nobody would start a fight in this position or use this as a fighting stance at ANY point in a fight...

Rob