punching vs grappling.

[Buka]

"Fighting in his kitchen." An old term used for that range of standing grappling. I've always found that all Martial Artists train that range specific to what their art, or specific dojo, does at that range. And it's usually done in two different ways. The first way is obvious - what to do in general self defense. The second - how someone else here, in our art, can counter that or turn it against me (what to watch out for) That's what we all tend to do, train it in our milieu and see who can stick it up our keesters.

If we watch a video of OTHER people depicting this range - the first thing that jumps into our heads is what we would do, what the obvious weaknesses we see as it pertains to our art, what we're used to, what we know to be true in our experience and how we would just stick it up theirs because we do this.
I think if there was only one way, we'd all be doing it. I sure as hell would.

Such is life in the kitchen.

 

[geezer]

I think if there was only one way, we'd all be doing it. I sure as hell would.

Sometimes there is only one really good way to do things. Like driving with your eyes open. I usually do that.

But with other things, like MA, you have to consider the individual. For example half a century ago, my older brother was a good wrestler. Took state (way back around '66). And our coach, Tony Russo, was great... he'd been on the Olympic team till he was injured. They both used to tell me that if all other factors were equal, the more aggressive, technically offensive wrestler was statistically most likely to win. In other words, the guy that initiates (shoots, etc.) wins over the guy that counters. The high school coach where I work now tells me that 50 years later that's still a fact.

Yet I, personally, was more successful letting the other guy shoot, then countering. I was a different build, temperament, and had different skills than my brother. The same is true in striking arts, like boxing. Some are infighters, others hang back and counterpunch, and so on. Ultimately, we are all different, and regardless of what statistically works best for the mythical "average" athlete, we have to find what works for each of us.

In my WC group, I've met guys that have so little ability and interest in grappling that if we do a grappling unit where we invite wrestlers to work with us, they will simply not show up to class. One guy got so upset about going to the ground that he quit. Others (like me) love it. ..Even as old as I am, and often getting my butt kicked. On the other hand, those guys that hate it are going to have to learn different, possibly less reliable ways to defend against grappling, because that's all they've got. I can accept that. Just another type of diversity.

 

[drop bear]

Sometimes there is only one really good way to do things. Like driving with your eyes open. I usually do that.

But with other things, like MA, you have to consider the individual. For example half a century ago, my older brother was a good wrestler. Took state (way back around '66). And our coach, Tony Russo, was great... he'd been on the Olympic team till he was injured. They both used to tell me that if all other factors were equal, the more aggressive, technically offensive wrestler was statistically most likely to win. In other words, the guy that initiates (shoots, etc.) wins over the guy that counters. The high school coach where I work now tells me that 50 years later that's still a fact.

Yet I, personally, was more successful letting the other guy shoot, then countering. I was a different build, temperament, and had different skills than my brother. The same is true in striking arts, like boxing. Some are infighters, others hang back and counterpunch, and so on. Ultimately, we are all different, and regardless of what statistically works best for the mythical "average" athlete, we have to find what works for each of us.

In my WC group, I've met guys that have so little ability and interest in grappling that if we do a grappling unit where we invite wrestlers to work with us, they will simply not show up to class. One guy got so upset about going to the ground that he quit. Others (like me) love it. ..Even as old as I am, and often getting my butt kicked. On the other hand, those guys that hate it are going to have to learn different, possibly less reliable ways to defend against grappling, because that's all they've got. I can accept that. Just another type of diversity.

The issue you may come across is you begin trying to reinvent the wheel a bit. And it can make you a bit goober.

Sometimes success is not a good indicator. If I did tkd then did kickboxing I would be more successful with the tkd method at first because it is more natural. This would be regardless of how more effective the kickboxing might be.

It is kind of a you have to know the rules before you break them.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In my WC group, I've met guys that have so little ability and interest in grappling ...Just another type of diversity.

This kind of attitude also exist in the grappling world as well. In my Chinese wrestling group, I also have guys who don't like their head to be punched. I have to help them to develop some "anti-striking" ability too. How well does this "anti-striking" work? It's still under serious testing.

The issue you may come across is you begin trying to reinvent the wheel a bit.

This may not apply to my situation. As far as I know, nobody before me has ever tried to use the "rhino guard" to deal with head punch yet.

IMO, the "anti-striking" is a much easier task than the "anti-grappling".

 

[drop bear]

This may not apply to my situation. As far as I know, nobody before me has ever tried to use the "rhino guard" to deal with head punch yet.

IMO, the "anti-striking" is a much easier task than the "anti-grappling".

And I have yet to put you in a cage and test that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And I have yet to put you in a cage and test that.

It will be tested in the Sanda/Sanshou environment and that's for sure.

 

[drop bear]

It will be tested in the Sanda/Sanshou environment and that's for sure.

Yeah see how you go. I don't like it. But unless I have had a go at it I cant for sure say.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yeah see how you go. I don't like it. But unless I have had a go at it I cant for sure say.

I will not use it to block punches. I'll use it to

- protect my head as "shield",
- use my arms as "wedge",
- move into my opponent in fast speed,
- penetrate my arms between his arms (this is the most important part),
- wrap my arms around his head and leading arm, and then
- take him down.

In other words, I'll use it in "offense" and not use it in "defense". The whole "rhino guard" may last for only 1 second. Of course, if my opponent can move back faster than my advance, my attack will fail. The best opportunity to do this is when my opponent is moving toward me. This way, he moves in and I move in too, I may only have to deal with 1 punch or 2 punches, during that short period of time, either my opponent knocks me down, or my clinch succeed and the grappling game will start after that.

 

[drop bear]

I will not use it to block punches. I'll use it to

- protect my head as "shield",
- use my arms as "wedge",
- move into my opponent in fast speed,
- penetrate my arms between his arms (this is the most important part),
- wrap my arms around his head and leading arm, and then
- take him down.

In other words, I'll use it in "offense" and not use it in "defense". The whole "rhino guard" may last for only 1 second. Of course, if my opponent can move back faster than my advance, my attack will fail. The best opportunity to do this is when my opponent is moving toward me. This way, he moves in and I move in too, I may only have to deal with 1 punch or 2 punches, during that short period of time, either my opponent knocks me down, or my clinch succeed and the grappling game will start after that.

To close that gap move backwards which will bring the other guy forwards. Then do your rhino guard thing.

 

[RowdyAz]

More Street fights have been finished by KO than tapout. In a gym with controlled sparring the grappler has a chance though for sure. The quickest escapes are done with illegal tactics which can't be done in the gym.

 

[Hanzou]

More Street fights have been finished by KO than tapout. In a gym with controlled sparring the grappler has a chance though for sure. The quickest escapes are done with illegal tactics which can't be done in the gym.

A thug grappler isn't going to "Tap you out". They're going to get you in an inferior position, and then KO you by punching you in the face. Only nice grapplers go for tapouts.

 

[RowdyAz]

A thug grappler isn't going to "Tap you out". They're going to get you in an inferior position, and then KO you by punching you in the face. Only nice grapplers go for tapouts.

On the rare occasion it's 1on1 that might happen for sure. Anytime you go to ground you run the risk of people jumping in (outside the gym)eyes getting gouged etc. Hence training is done on mats not concrete

 

[drop bear]

On the rare occasion it's 1on1 that might happen for sure. Anytime you go to ground you run the risk of people jumping in (outside the gym)eyes getting gouged etc. Hence training is done on mats not concrete

You run that risk standing as well.

The mats are so you can be thrown without too much injury. Throws are more effective on concrete generally.

 

[RowdyAz]

Matts are for rolling too, which isn't too effective on concrete generally.

 

[Hanzou]

On the rare occasion it's 1on1 that might happen for sure. Anytime you go to ground you run the risk of people jumping in (outside the gym)eyes getting gouged etc.

That's fighting period, not just "ground" fighting. I was talking about the bad guy taking YOU to the ground and smacking your head into the pavement. That's more likely to happen than him trying to tap you out. Nice grapplers would pin or tap you out. The guy trying to kill you is going to throw you down and attempt a ground and pound.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I was talking about the bad guy taking YOU to the ground and ...

Do you think one should train not to be taken down by the bad guy first? IMO, the "anti-throwing - not to be taken down" skill is more important in the street situation. Have you ever heard about a 4th degree Judo black belt been taken down by someone who has no throwing (take down) skill? I have never heard about that myself.

One guy in NYC made a public claim that if anybody could take him down just once, he would give that guy a black belt. In the past 30 years, nobody had ever received a black belt from him that way. IMO, if you are good, it will be very difficult for anybody to take you down.

One thing that I have noticed is that, since the ground game is getting popular in MMA, people just don't train "anti-throwing" as much as they did in the past.

Do you agree?

 

[RowdyAz]

That's fighting period, not just "ground" fighting. I was talking about the bad guy taking YOU to the ground and smacking your head into the pavement. That's more likely to happen than him trying to tap you out. Nice grapplers would pin or tap you out. The guy trying to kill you is going to throw you down and attempt a ground and pound.

Not ME my stand ups too GOOD.

 

[drop bear]

Matts are for rolling too, which isn't too effective on concrete generally.

Rolling is very effective on concrete. If you compare it to going splat face.

 

[drop bear]

Do you think one should train not to be taken down by the bad guy first? IMO, the "anti-throwing - not to be taken down" skill is more important in the street situation. Have you ever heard about a 4th degree Judo black belt been taken down by someone who has no throwing (take down) skill? I have never heard about that myself.

One guy in NYC made a public claim that if anybody could take him down just once, he would give that guy a black belt. In the past 30 years, nobody had ever received a black belt from him that way. IMO, if you are good, it will be very difficult for anybody to take you down.

One thing that I have noticed is that, since the ground game is getting popular in MMA, people just don't train "anti-throwing" as much as they did in the past.

Do you agree?

No. Mma has a lot of anti throwing.

 

[Hanzou]

Do you think one should train not to be taken down by the bad guy first? IMO, the "anti-throwing - not to be taken down" skill is more important in the street situation. Have you ever heard about a 4th degree Judo black belt been taken down by someone who has no throwing (take down) skill? I have never heard about that myself.

Ronda Rousey has a 4th degree black belt in Judo, and she's been taken down and thrown several times. No matter how well trained you are, gravity effects us all equally.

One thing that I have noticed is that, since the ground game is getting popular in MMA, people just don't train "anti-throwing" as much as they did in the past.

Do you agree?

Well MMA tends to favor wrestling over Judo, so anti-throwing isn't really necessary. They have takedown defense instead.