Pulling Rank

[jdmills]

It's a personal decision and it depends on the circumstances. It never occurred to me to call Mr. Parker anything but Mr. Parker. I was not one of his senior students, or even a black belt. We did not have that kind of a relationship and it would have been incredibly disrespectful (not to mention stupid) for me to call him "Ed". When I studied under Joe Palanzo, I also called him Mr. Palanzo and it never occurred to me to call him anything else. My first instructor was an old friend and of course, I naturally called him Paul. Again, it never really occurred to me to call him anything else.

I guess I'm just a creature of habit.

 

[YouAgain]

this needs to be upped.


its a real interesting read!

 

[LadyDragon]

No matter what, a senior is always a senior. Some amount of respect must be shown. But if you ask me, whem in a casual setting, its just that, casual. I was brought up with the mind set that those who are older than you are treated with respect. Therefore, I will out of shear habit from my up bringing call my seniors Mr. and/or Ms. X. Even in a casual setting. But as for assistant instructors and such, I'll more than likely call them by their first name.

 

[OULobo]

As long as I have repect for the person it is always sir (or mame). This applies to high rank, low rank, no rank, on the mat, off the mat. The only time I stray from this is when I am asked to call them something else that fits thier station, like doctor, professor, sensei, saya, guru, chief, ect.

 

[Turner]

How is it possible for rank to apply outside of class? I was in the Military and taught at the base gym. I was a E-4 and EVERY SINGLE student that I had outranked me in rank and in age. I couldn't imagine trying to get the Lt. Col. to clean my dorm room or something.

Rank is always a matter of perception. When I am in uniform I would salute the Lt. Col and show him the utmost respect, snapping to attention when he spoke to me. When he was in my class room, he would salute me and snap to attention when I spoke to him.

When we were both out of uniform we were friends. We both held high respect for each other and treated each other as equals. Respect is mandatory both inside and outside the place of practice or the place of work. You respect the person because of his or her achievements and simply because they are another person and no matter what they are deserving of some of your respect. Respect should always be (in the ideal world) mutual. I wouldn't have much respect for an intructor who expected me to pay for his class and then mow his lawn. I can't stand the idea of my students trying to get me to eat first. The first rule of leadership is that you take care of your people before you think of yourself. It's always been my habit to make sure that everyone else has had some pizza before I even think about getting some for me.

Now, I have had exceptional instruction that came at a low price and I was very willing to help the instructor out when it came to setting up for lessons and cleaning the school afterwards. He would travel 3 hours to get to the school and only charge $30 a month which would barely pay for his gas to get back and forth so I didn't think nothing of going above and beyond and cleaning up the school and setting things up so that he could get in and out. Would I wash his car or mow his grass? Not in the least. I respect the man, but I am not his servant. I have respect for a great many people, but I expect to be treated as an equal.

What would I do for someone that I respected? Probably quite a bit. If he needed help moving, I'd be willing to grab one end of the couch and help him out. Anything that I may do for a friend I would do for the instructor, but the moment he started expecting me to lend a hand without a sign of appreciation... just expecting me to do it because I'm the student and he's the instructor... I'd have a problem.

 

[Astra]

My instructor is just a normal guy even at classes.. makes it easy for me, as I don't have to worry about my attitude towards him

He likes to joke about it saying that we're all just one big group of best friends, and then sarcastically sais "This has got to stop, I want respect! "

 

[KenpoTess]

I had an instructor back in Florida who was a total lech outside of the dojo.. He was not a nice human being and at the time, I was 'awed' by him as a wonderful Martial artist, so we basically did the old school thing and did what he bade us do.. I know longer speak to that instructor and could care less.

New Instructor...
I've grown alot as a person .. thank goodness.. When Mr. Conatser comes up, it's Mr. C. or his first name.. depending on the topic of conversation and the place.. we do honor time old traditions of waiting for the Senior belt to start eating.. it's respectful .. not subserviant in anyway at least not to our group. Sure I don't mind assisting by carrying a bag or helping out.. but Mr. Conatser never makes us feel like we are beneath his feet.. He is an exceptional Person and Martial Artist, I do it out of pure respect. He's been in the Arts for over 30 yrs.. And shares his knowledge.. Darn right I'm no where his equal in that area.. as a fellow human .. course we are equal.. but that wasn't the question

As far as pulling rank in our school, The yellow belts are as due the same respect as the brown belts in my eyes, if a brown belt is being an ***.. I'll call them on it.. same with the yellow belt..
Respect to each other as people should be earned.. Respect in a sense of it's a tradition to stop class when a BB enters the room.. Respect to your Instructor, Respecting yourself.. that is a slightly different definition of the word..


JMHO

Tess

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by KenpoTess
.. but Mr. Conatser never makes us feel like we are beneath his feet.. He is an exceptional Person and Martial Artist,

I agree very much.:asian:

He is a man among men.:asian:

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by RCastillo
I've been through all the things that have been mentioned, and I have mixed feelings about some of it.

But I will say this for myself. I prefer to be called by my first name, it's not necessary for you to do anything special for me. But, I will do it for you. I'm just like you, and I have my strengths, and weaknesses.

I'm just a teacher, nothing more.:asian:

How would you feel if one of your High School students called you Rick instead of Mr. Castillo?

 

[Seig]

Everything needs to be considered on a person by person, case by case basis.
In the school, I am Mr. Seigel, period. Outside of the school, I am Mike, depending on the situation. If we go to a resteraunt, I usually eat first. Why? Because that is the way my instructor has asked my students to do it. Do I have a problem with it? No. The reason being that I was raised that at supper time, Dad or the oldest person at the table ate first. If Dad started eating and Mom had not sat down yet, I waited until either she did or she told me to eat. It's just good manners. We had a BBQ at the school a few weeks ago and I was running the grill, the students and parents got quite aggrivated at me for waiting until everyone had eaten before I got anything for myself. My reasoning? I was the host and therefore had a responsibilty to my guests. Do I expect them to work for me? No. If I need help, I ask them, but I also find a way to pay them, ie, I feed them. I will not pay them in cash. By the same token, if they ask for my help, I provide it. It's a two way street. When Mr. Conatser is here, I make sure he has his meal first, because I am the host and he is the guest. He is also almost 20 years older than I. I take good manners fairly seriously. I feel that Mr. C in addition to being my teacher and mentor is a good friend. I cannot bring myself to call him Dennis, I find it intolerably rude. My TKD instructor when I was younger insisted that after I graduated high school that he was Tim. I couldn't do it. I had been calling him Mr. Smith for 10 years already. I did nearly anything he asked, not out of subservience but out of love. He never charged me for lessons or testing. How could I not do things for him? Did I mow his lawn? A few times when he was out of town. Did he ask? No. He did not even know until he got back and found the chores he expected to find waiting for him done. His answer to me, a heart felt thank you. So, it all depends on you and the situation.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Seig
How would you feel if one of your High School students called you Rick instead of Mr. Castillo?

Oh Boy, is this a fovorite of mine.

There is an old friend from High School who I all John (*not real name *) and he calls me Rich. If I introduce him in a Club it is Master Smith (* not real Last name *), and the same back. We study different arts , yet have respect for the others achievments, yet we are old buds.

I showed up once at a place he was to be at and asked for John. They all looked at me like I was stone crazy, there is no John Here. I siad a JOhn Smith and they all said you mean Master Smith. I smiled and said excuse me yes, that is who I meant.

Although on the matts, the person in front of the class is a sir or mame, no matter their rank

 

[SenseiBear]

Sensei is always Sensei. I couldn't call him anything else... Our class does go out socially at times, and all of the rest of us blackbelts revert to a first name basis with each other and the lower ranks, but Sensei is always Sensei -

And I agree, in class, everyone is sir or ma'am... no matter what their rank. I don't think there is an official rule about this, at least not in the 12 years I've been here, but nothing else would feel appropriate - I take other classes and I've been told by the instructor and other students, "call me X" or "Don't call me sir, my name is X"... but I can't stop. On the mat, this politeness seems called for...

 

[dragonbyte]

Normally, I just read posts but this subject has me thinking. (let the flames begin.....)
How can you not show your Teacher the utmost repect and Honor at all times regardless of where you are at? It doesn't matter if you are in the school are at McDonalds I feel you should always grant them their due.
All of my Instructors have EARNED the right to be respected and honored.
You who say it only applies while in the school IMHO do not honestly respect your Teacher for what he is giving to you. So you pay your monthly dues and show up....big deal! Have you ever stopped to think about how much time and effort they are investing in you and how much time and effort they went thru to learn for themselves. The traditions that some schools teach are ones that our society is lacking and I for one would not have it any other way. We salute our instructors, call them SIR or MAM, open the doors for them , carry bags, fetch what they need because it is the right thing to do. When you earn the rank of Black Belt in our school, you deserve it. It has nothing to do with ego's and everything to do with respect and honor. If I eat before the Black Belts then I do pushups, and I'm not upset about it....neither are any of the students because all of us want to repect our Instructors. I would pay the same respect and do the same for your teachers or even you if you outrank me and are at my school (or McDonalds), and I can tell you for sure that I don't worship you.
In giving respect you get respect, I cannot understand why some people think that they are the equal of their Teachers and still want to learn from them, are you his or her equal? Are you sure it not your EGO that stops you from doing these time honored traditions? Can you not afford to pay for a meal for your Instructor as he did for his? Its your school to so take 10 minutes and clean it up, have pride in what you do. We who train in Martial Arts are different from most people. Most people do not hold the door for others, never use Sir or Mam, care only for their own needs and not for the needs of others. I feel better when I do things for the people I care about, and these people are my Kenpo family. If you do not feel the same then I feel sorry for you. I have seem many young students who have taken this tradition of respect home with them and changed how they deal with people around them. Their parents, teachers, relatives notice and approve of how this benifits them with their relationships and how they react to others. Again I say is it their Ego or yours that concerns you. Humble yourself, and you raise yourself up. I am no where near the top of the ladder and have been involved with my school for many years...yet I will always be indebt to my Teacher for the pearls he cast before us. You who feel your Teacher is your friend are right, my Teacher has been like a Father to me at times and I would never call my father by his first name. I would hold the door for my uncle and would help my grandfather with his bags. If my Aunt was thirsty would I tell her she can get her own drink while we are at a tournament, or I'll get it but she pays?.....sad, sad, sad. At the same time my little brothers and sisters look up to me and imitate the things I do, learning proper dojo etiquett at the same time, and RESPECT for our "Elders" in the Art.
My EGO knows I have much to learn and I can only learn by being open and respectful. Does this mean I have no pride? Or does it mean I have great pride in my school and my Teacher? If for some reason you have only witnessed this showing of respect from the outside (saw another school at a tourny or seminar) and not been in a school that does these things then maybe you are missing something. If you can only say "I would never carry someone elses bags or be their lacky" your cup is full and your EGO fuller. I WOULD BE SURPRIZED WHAT YOUR TEACHER THINKS OF YOU, IF YOU THINK SO little OF HIM OR HER.
Feel free to flame away!


Sir's and Mam's, with all RESPECT
Dragonbyte
:asian:

 

[Aegis]

Originally posted by dragonbyte
How can you not show your Teacher the utmost repect and Honor at all times regardless of where you are at? It doesn't matter if you are in the school are at McDonalds I feel you should always grant them their due.
All of my Instructors have EARNED the right to be respected and honored.

As have mine. However, in my orginisation the instructors expect to be treated as normal people off the mat, to the extent that they will specifically tell people NOT to call them sensei outside the dojo.

Respect goes deeper than what you do en masse. If you "respect" your instructor by doing exactly what everyone else does, it's forced respect and doesn't show anything but the fact that you can obey orders. I would consider most of the people who have taught me to be close friends, people I can share a joke with, go out drinking with, and generally have a good time with, all without having to worry about the constraints of a formal teacher/student relationship. I have the utmost respect for all of my teachers, but I don't expect to be a servant to them off them mat, and they don't expect any of their students to do so. We have a very close-knit community within our art, and every gets to know everyone else, both off and on the mat.

On the mat is a different question. There the relationship becomes very professional. No favouratism is shown, and the standard "obey" response is drilled into everyone from day one. the instructors are not expected to help with the mats or equipment, but they don't expect to have doors held open for them wherever they go, beyond what you would normally do for a friend.

I feel it is a very good working relationship, and instills a sense of respect that works in both directions.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Good lord. Instructors in kenpo actually expect students to hold doors, carry bags, eat after they do? Eeeeeww.

I have to say that it's been my experience, throughout grad school and martial arts over going far too rapidly on thirty years, that anybody who demands this level of, "respect," (I prefer the word, "grovelling," in this case) doesn't deserve it. In fact, it's been my experience that (with two exceptions, both women in their sixties) every single one of the most-famous, best-respected scholars and kenpo people I've met all shook my hand and said, "Hi, I'm Bob," or, "Hi, I'm Ed," or, "Hi, I'm Barbara," or "Hi, I'm Larry," or whatever it was.

I'm told by my first instructor--her name's Toni--that Mr. Parker was exactly the same way in person.

But I don't expect that anybody who doesn't already know what's wrong here will be convinced. I find it more useful, then to ask a question: doesn't this level of behavior really only make sense in contexts like Imperial Japan? or in very traditional Chinese gung fu studies?

Good manners--guests get taken care of first--fine. But why would we want to act like we lived in the seventeenth century, a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away?

Oh, and PS. I do outrank the guy from Kansas, big deal. And I'm older, sigh. But I would be absolutely horrified--I'd wonder what I did wrong--if anybody, for any reason, started behaving that way around me. In fact, I'd start wondering what the hell I'd been doing by the way of arrogance, to encourage that sort of obsequiousness...and I'd damn sure squash it out...

 

[kenpo2dabone]

I would have to say that it depends. If you are on an outing that is organized by the school for the students or even if it is something like a bunch of poeple going out for dinner after a seminar or something then rank should be recagnized if your school opperates that way. If you happen to be friends with a few people at your school and you hang out on a regular basis then rank should not matter. All the instructors at my original school use to go out every Thursday night for drinks and rank was not observed so it really depends on the school and the individuals in it.

Salute,
Mike Miller UkF

 

[dragonbyte]

Good lord. Instructors in kenpo actually expect students to hold doors, carry bags, eat after they do? Eeeeeww.
Not all KENPO Instructors I'm sure, but the best I personally know do (granted I haven't had the HONOR of being around all of them yet)

I have to say that it's been my experience, throughout grad school and martial arts over going far too rapidly on thirty years, that anybody who demands this level of, "respect," (I prefer the word, "grovelling," in this case) doesn't deserve it.

Without personally knowing the people I have trained under, I would not be so quick as to say who is deserving. As for "grovelling" I would say you obviously do not know me or understand traditional respect.

Good manners--guests get taken care of first--fine. But why would we want to act like we lived in the seventeenth century, a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away?

Ah, to live in a place and/or time of Honor and respect compaired to our society today-easy choice.

I'm told by my first instructor--her name's Toni--that Mr. Parker was exactly the same way in person.

Where do you think this started, SGM Ed Parker, He was treated the same way and these traditions are directly from how things were done.


As for all Kenpo schools having the same ways of showing RESPECT as the one I attend, I doubt it. I cannot speak for the Seniors in the art-only myself who has only been involved for 15 years or so, and am not a Black Belt yet. Traditions of respect for "Elders" and persons that have put in more time and effort Have nothing to do with Worshiping, being subservent or feeding someones EGO other than mine for Giving them the Respect they deserve.

Lastly, Mr/Mrs rmcrobertson (can't tell by profile) if you have not been apart of a school that does these things you may not understand or may have a misconception about "peoples Ego's" or what is really going on. I would suggest that you would get to know some of these people for a better understanding. And for some thoughts from others about does this help in your standing for testing...I would say not, If you don't have "IT" you don't get it, I have never seen anyone in our orginization get promoted for anything other than skill and hard work-never "kissing butt".


P.S You say you outrank me and I'm sure thats true. I would hold a door for you also, help with bags and even wait to you had started eating before I did. Would I grovel to you....Not, but I would respect your rank and achevment (sp?). Just as I expect respect also...

IMHO we have the best enviroment for learning and teaching at our school and it has been handed down to us from the best Teacher the Martial Arts have ever know SGM Ed Parker. If you don't get it then you don't...My EGO will survive, My Pride is intact.....mabey you should expect a little more where you are at? I couldn't say cause I haven't been there I don't know what school, style or org with whom you belong.

Humbly in all Respect,
Dragonbyte

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by dragonbyte
Good lord. Instructors in kenpo actually expect students to hold doors, carry bags, eat after they do? Eeeeeww.
Not all KENPO Instructors I'm sure, but the best I personally know do (granted I haven't had the HONOR of being around all of them yet)

I have to say that it's been my experience, throughout grad school and martial arts over going far too rapidly on thirty years, that anybody who demands this level of, "respect," (I prefer the word, "grovelling," in this case) doesn't deserve it.

Without personally knowing the people I have trained under, I would not be so quick as to say who is deserving. As for "grovelling" I would say you obviously do not know me or understand traditional respect.

Good manners--guests get taken care of first--fine. But why would we want to act like we lived in the seventeenth century, a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away?

Ah, to live in a place and/or time of Honor and respect compaired to our society today-easy choice.

I'm told by my first instructor--her name's Toni--that Mr. Parker was exactly the same way in person.

Where do you think this started, SGM Ed Parker, He was treated the same way and these traditions are directly from how things were done.


As for all Kenpo schools having the same ways of showing RESPECT as the one I attend, I doubt it. I cannot speak for the Seniors in the art-only myself who has only been involved for 15 years or so, and am not a Black Belt yet. Traditions of respect for "Elders" and persons that have put in more time and effort Have nothing to do with Worshiping, being subservent or feeding someones EGO other than mine for Giving them the Respect they deserve.

Lastly, Mr/Mrs rmcrobertson (can't tell by profile) if you have not been apart of a school that does these things you may not understand or may have a misconception about "peoples Ego's" or what is really going on. I would suggest that you would get to know some of these people for a better understanding. And for some thoughts from others about does this help in your standing for testing...I would say not, If you don't have "IT" you don't get it, I have never seen anyone in our orginization get promoted for anything other than skill and hard work-never "kissing butt".


P.S You say you outrank me and I'm sure thats true. I would hold a door for you also, help with bags and even wait to you had started eating before I did. Would I grovel to you....Not, but I would respect your rank and achevment (sp?). Just as I expect respect also...

IMHO we have the best enviroment for learning and teaching at our school and it has been handed down to us from the best Teacher the Martial Arts have ever know SGM Ed Parker. If you don't get it then you don't...My EGO will survive, My Pride is intact.....mabey you should expect a little more where you are at? I couldn't say cause I haven't been there I don't know what school, style or org with whom you belong.

Humbly in all Respect,
Dragonbyte

I can't even believe I'm seeing this, subservience to the rescue. I'm gonna go drink my Kool-aid now. BTW, Robert is a third black at Larry Tatum's in Pasadena.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Astra]

Where both I and my instructor stand on this issue:

Someone is somehow better then me because he knows martial arts better? Rubbish. It simply means he has spent more time on martial arts and less time on other things. Could you immagine waiting until your friend finishes eating when the difference between the two of you is that he has a PhD and you don't?

I'm all for showing respect to your instructor(s), but what you described, if forced on, seems to have the slight feeling of a McDojo.

Respect can be shown/had in different ways. Not by only age-old formal etiquette.

Look at it this way: Do you kiss every woman's hand upon meeting?

 

[Aegis]

Originally posted by Astra
Look at it this way: Do you kiss every woman's hand upon meeting?

tried it. Gave up when my face was numb from slaps.

Joking, before anyone actually takes me seriously!