Problems of new students

[K-man]

I've found that a reminder call before the trial class is actually really useful to the potential student as well as you, since quite a few people just plain forget what day/time they scheduled to come in, or something comes up last minute and they need to reschedule. Most people are fine with giving you their name and phone # for that reason.

But after the class or trial, it doesn't do as much. Most people don't forget to come back and sign up if they're planning to. I'll give them one follow-up call and that's it, unless they ask me to call them back later.

Also, no offense intended, but I think it's real easy to say that you're against using contracts when your living doesn't depend on having your students pay you consistently.

I'm quite prepared to try the call before the trial classes. It will be interesting to compare the take up rate.

As to contracts, no offence taken. It is a personal thing. I don't know how it works where you are but if you sign up for direct debit here you can't cancel the payment. Only the payee can do that. So even if places like electricity suppliers etc offer reduced rates, I don't take up their offer. Because I am philosophically opposed to direct debit, it would be hypocritical of me to force it on my students. Paying three months in advance pretty much gives the same result.
:asian:

 

[blackxpress]

I think you guys are over thinking this. The fact is that real MA training is a lot of hard work. Most people these days are not into hard work. They're into instant gratification. A lot of people see MMA fights or kung fu movies on TV and think it's real cool until they take a couple of classes and realize how hard it is. Even young kids these days are in terrible physical shape. I'm 57 years old and I've seen a lot of teenagers that can't keep up with me because they spend their days sitting around watching TV and playing video games and their diets consist of nothing but carbs and empty calories. Then they get their moms to sign them up for karate lessons because they think it would be cool until they find out how hard it is. Then they drop out and go back to their electronic fantasy world. The reason there are so many McDojo's is because the McDojo makes it easy. You can pretend like you're a real martial artist and get a black belt without having to endure all the pain and suffering that goes with real MA training. There is no contract plan or marketing program that will finally overcome that problem. The best way to motivate a student IMHO is to know your stuff and refuse to compromise. Be a person of integrity and build a solid rapport with your students such that they will find motivation in not wanting to disappoint their sensei.

 

[MAist25]

I think you guys are over thinking this. The fact is that real MA training is a lot of hard work. Most people these days are not into hard work. They're into instant gratification. A lot of people see MMA fights or kung fu movies on TV and think it's real cool until they take a couple of classes and realize how hard it is. Even young kids these days are in terrible physical shape. I'm 57 years old and I've seen a lot of teenagers that can't keep up with me because they spend their days sitting around watching TV and playing video games and their diets consist of nothing but carbs and empty calories. Then they get their moms to sign them up for karate lessons because they think it would be cool until they find out how hard it is. Then they drop out and go back to their electronic fantasy world. The reason there are so many McDojo's is because the McDojo makes it easy. You can pretend like you're a real martial artist and get a black belt without having to endure all the pain and suffering that goes with real MA training. There is no contract plan or marketing program that will finally overcome that problem. The best way to motivate a student IMHO is to know your stuff and refuse to compromise. Be a person of integrity and build a solid rapport with your students such that they will find motivation in not wanting to disappoint their sensei.

One of the best, most honest posts I've seen on MT. Couldn't agree more.

 

[donald1]

I

i think you guys are over thinking this. The fact is that real ma training is a lot of hard work. Most people these days are not into hard work. They're into instant gratification. A lot of people see mma fights or kung fu movies on tv and think it's real cool until they take a couple of classes and realize how hard it is. Even young kids these days are in terrible physical shape. I'm 57 years old and i've seen a lot of teenagers that can't keep up with me because they spend their days sitting around watching tv and playing video games and their diets consist of nothing but carbs and empty calories. Then they get their moms to sign them up for karate lessons because they think it would be cool until they find out how hard it is. Then they drop out and go back to their electronic fantasy world. The reason there are so many mcdojo's is because the mcdojo makes it easy. You can pretend like you're a real martial artist and get a black belt without having to endure all the pain and suffering that goes with real ma training. There is no contract plan or marketing program that will finally overcome that problem. The best way to motivate a student imho is to know your stuff and refuse to compromise. Be a person of integrity and build a solid rapport with your students such that they will find motivation in not wanting to disappoint their sensei.

It's true, I've seen quite a bit of students that can't even do ten GOOD Pushups. Mcdojos from what I heard do make things easier and on tests... Wether good or bad it's a pass. I have seen one mcdojo and had black belts who couldn't make a proper punch. More or less learn a form and use it effectively. I have practiced kung fu forms and it takes a lot of effort

A lot of people don't exercise and all of the sudden decide I WANNA JOIN. But the fact is a lot of people don't want something that puts them through exhausting workouts,. In my opinion im going to guess this is probably one of the main factors

 

[Mark Lynn]

I don't 'sign up' my students. After the trial period they pay up at the next lesson an annual membership fee and tuition for the next quarter (pro rata, of course). Once they pay up and start very few leave.


My numbers probably aren't much different. 2/3 and 2/3 is just over 50% retention. 25% of my phone enquires put feet on the ground and more than 50% of them stay. I'm happy with the retention rate once they trial with us, just amused by the people who say they'll be back after the trial and don't show. My problem is in generating the enquiries in the first place, and I'm a bit lazy when it comes to door knocking. If my living depended on it I would obviously put more effort into generating the numbers.
:asian:

K man I'm a bit confused by the numbers, if 25% of your phone enquirers put feet on the ground and 50% of them stay then that is a conversion rate of about 12.5% not 2/3s. For instance in a previous post you said out of 10 calls 2-3 would show up, so out of 10 enquirers for class 3 show, out of that, say 2 take lessons that's only a 20% conversion rate. not say 63% (2/3rds). Which is fine if you are OK with that but...... if you aren't meeting your over head then capturing more of the 10 enquirers is low hanging fruit.

I believe you would be better served to work out your phone sales presentation (or whatever) and get more people in the door taking the intro, than "door knocking", advertising, etc. etc. because the people who call you are already interested in the martial arts, they are a warm market, you don't have to go out and get them they came to you.

Trustme I know about being lazy in generating leads, marketing etc. etc. which is why I listen to my marketing students and yeild to their suggestions, although I'm still stubborn about blogging and network marketing our school. I get it. However if you aren't meeting your bills then there are some ways to overcome that obstacle without spending more on advertising or more effort "door knockiing". Just some thoughts, I'm not trying to be disrespectful.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I've found that a reminder call before the trial class is actually really useful to the potential student as well as you, since quite a few people just plain forget what day/time they scheduled to come in, or something comes up last minute and they need to reschedule. Most people are fine with giving you their name and phone # for that reason.

I agree with you, staying in contact whether it is through an email or a phone call, helps get the person through the door. That is a big first step, then if they like your class, or intro lesson, or whatever great. But they will never know if they will like it if you can't get them to come to first lesson.

But after the class or trial, it doesn't do as much. Most people don't forget to come back and sign up if they're planning to. I'll give them one follow-up call and that's it, unless they ask me to call them back later.

Another way to look at it is in a sense like a exit interview. I don't do this, however, if you were really running a business system tight school, the follow up call could also be a way for you to find out what about your program didn't meet their needs, was it cost, schedules, they didn't like the class, your facility stinks etc. etc. If you keep stats and enough people give you similar reasons for not signing up or quiting the program then you would have an idea on if you need to do some adjustments or not.

Also, no offense intended, but I think it's real easy to say that you're against using contracts when your living doesn't depend on having your students pay you consistently.

My living does depend on my earnings from class, I work hard at it. However being at the Rec. Center I don't have to rely on contracts but then I don't have the same overhead as a commercial school nor do I have the same financial risk at stake either. Contracts aren't a bad thing per say but they can be abused.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I think you guys are over thinking this. The fact is that real MA training is a lot of hard work. Most people these days are not into hard work. They're into instant gratification. A lot of people see MMA fights or kung fu movies on TV and think it's real cool until they take a couple of classes and realize how hard it is. Even young kids these days are in terrible physical shape. I'm 57 years old and I've seen a lot of teenagers that can't keep up with me because they spend their days sitting around watching TV and playing video games and their diets consist of nothing but carbs and empty calories. Then they get their moms to sign them up for karate lessons because they think it would be cool until they find out how hard it is. Then they drop out and go back to their electronic fantasy world. The reason there are so many McDojo's is because the McDojo makes it easy. You can pretend like you're a real martial artist and get a black belt without having to endure all the pain and suffering that goes with real MA training. There is no contract plan or marketing program that will finally overcome that problem. The best way to motivate a student IMHO is to know your stuff and refuse to compromise. Be a person of integrity and build a solid rapport with your students such that they will find motivation in not wanting to disappoint their sensei.

You know I agree with you but..... I think you are way over simplifying things when you say it is because the youth of today are just sitting around playing video games, they come in expecting to be Bruce Lee or (the current MMA star) in a few weeks and when the realize the hard work they drop out. I mean yeah some of my students have a work ethic that needs improvement and that is one reason they are in my class, not the only reason, but just one of them.

But for the majority of my students they have a good work ethic and need to be trained in strengthening that work ethic, but their time is limited and they are over scheduled. For instance I have 2 young kids 10 or 11yrs old; they go to swim lessons then they come to my class, today they came from the pool to my class (they might have come from a meet where they took 3 firsts and 2-3 seconds (they are twins competing in the same events). I have students who are in marching band out in the TX sun come to class dog tired from the heat, kids that are in AP classes doing homework prior to class and then after class. I have kids doing boy scouts, girl scouts, baseball, soccer, basketball, like I said swimming, band, music lessons, family vacations, tutoring etc. etc. in addition to my classes. I'm sorry these kids aren't lazy.

Now here are some of the real reasons they quit,
1) They lose interest. Some students just don't want to keep doing it after a certain belt rank.
2) The parents have over scheduled the kids and they get burned out.
3) School related functions, i.e. Band, Sports etc. etc. I lost my two Red belts due to marching band, possibly losing another Red belt in the fall, they couldn't commit to training for black rank and keep up their school related functions.
4) Parents pulling the kids out to "try" another sport. "Hey it's baseball season and we want to try out little Billy this season." Take the child out of class and let all of his friends/classmates pass him by and see if he comes back. My two swimmers, Dad pulled them out for August and that turned till January, this year the kids have told dad we don't want to miss our test so they are coming to class after swimming.
5) They relocate due to parents moving.

So while I know that some kids don't want to go through the hard work it takes to get to their black belt and beyond. In my experience most of the kids that quit at my school quit for different reasons some of which I mentioned for examples. If the truth be known the ones we think or blame for being "lazy" quit because; we as instructors or what we teach didn't meet their needs or expectations.

 

[Jaeimseu]

If 70% of students quit after one class, I'd say you need to rethink how you handle the first class.

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[Mark Lynn]

I don't know where Arlington is, I'm pretty sure it's near Austin or Dallas. I go mart Texas (a small unimportant town) our website wwwmtogkfederation. Webs. com

I agree with you on the child/adult difference. In my school there's three locations i know of one in Mart, Dallas, and Austin. I know the difference well (I'm not sure how to phrase it in words but) from children to junior up to adults there are differences you would natural practice with them different, teach them different and different advantages/disadvantages

Those seem like important factors yes that is probably the most part

I couldn't visit your schools website with the link you provided sorry. I'm not sure why I thought you were in Arlington TX, I thought I saw that on your profile or something, but no problem. Mart is down east of Waco, Arlington is in the DFW metroplex, you know where the Cowboys play, home to Jerry's World.

 

[K-man]

K man I'm a bit confused by the numbers, if 25% of your phone enquirers put feet on the ground and 50% of them stay then that is a conversion rate of about 12.5% not 2/3s. For instance in a previous post you said out of 10 calls 2-3 would show up, so out of 10 enquirers for class 3 show, out of that, say 2 take lessons that's only a 20% conversion rate. not say 63% (2/3rds). Which is fine if you are OK with that but...... if you aren't meeting your over head then capturing more of the 10 enquirers is low hanging fruit.

I believe you would be better served to work out your phone sales presentation (or whatever) and get more people in the door taking the intro, than "door knocking", advertising, etc. etc. because the people who call you are already interested in the martial arts, they are a warm market, you don't have to go out and get them they came to you.

Trustme I know about being lazy in generating leads, marketing etc. etc. which is why I listen to my marketing students and yeild to their suggestions, although I'm still stubborn about blogging and network marketing our school. I get it. However if you aren't meeting your bills then there are some ways to overcome that obstacle without spending more on advertising or more effort "door knockiing". Just some thoughts, I'm not trying to be disrespectful.

I think you are not comparing apples and apples. WaterGal said that 2/3 of the trial class went onto class and 2/3 of those took a contract. Two thirds of two thirds is close to 50% ( 9 starters, 2/3 or 6 go on to class. 2/3 of six is 4. So 4/9 take a contract. Forget the phone inquiries, they aren't feet on the ground. Of those who turn up to try my trial class more than half stay. Same same. My problem is to get more phone enquiries through the door. What I will try in future is WaterGal's idea of taking phone numbers and calling before the trial class. If I could get 50% of phone enquires turning up I would be confident of doubling my numbers.

However I wonder if a lot of the younger enquirers might be guys who want to compete in tournaments. Hard to tell.
:asian:

 

[wingchun100]

If the student paid with a check, he might have had three days or so to dispute the payment and then got his money back. I know my wife had this happen back in the early 80's where she signed up at a school and it was a high pressure sales gig and she had 3 days by law to cancel that contract. Likewise when we purchased a vehicle back in the 80's we had the same option.

Not sure if it is the same now or even with a credit card however I believe the laws about signing contracts for health clubs, martial arts schools etc. etc. are still on the books and the potential student is still given a grace period.

I know this, but the guy never cancelled his payment. It exceeded the amount of time when he could have done that. He paid for a full year, and then vanished.


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[Mark Lynn]

I think you are not comparing apples and apples. WaterGal said that 2/3 of the trial class went onto class and 2/3 of those took a contract. Two thirds of two thirds is close to 50% ( 9 starters, 2/3 or 6 go on to class. 2/3 of six is 4. So 4/9 take a contract. Forget the phone inquiries, they aren't feet on the ground. Of those who turn up to try my trial class more than half stay. Same same. My problem is to get more phone enquiries through the door. What I will try in future is WaterGal's idea of taking phone numbers and calling before the trial class. If I could get 50% of phone enquires turning up I would be confident of doubling my numbers.

However I wonder if a lot of the younger enquirers might be guys who want to compete in tournaments. Hard to tell.

:asian:

I apologize I missed that Watergal and you were talking in general about all inquires both foot traffic and phone calls. However your still statistically below 50%, closer I think to 40% of those that come in the door stay after your trail lessons, and from your numbers that you gave on your phone calls that (phone conversions) would still be around 12.5% converted to students. i.e. 25% come in and 50% of that number stay = 12.5%

While phone inquires aren't feet on the ground, they still are part of your marketing strategy from the sounds of it. Which if you don't need or care to make a profit, nor need the students for income, possibly isn't an issue then.

If you are going to collect data on a person i.e. phone #'s you might also try getting
1) Mailing Address
2) Phone number
3) Email
4) Some general info (interests, what prompted them to call, how they heard about you, etc. etc.)

This way after the intro you can follow up and keep your name in front of them by sending them an email, if you have a special class or seminar coming up you can email them if it might meet their needs. etc. etc.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Wingchun100

Wow

Sounds like the guy had money to burn.

 

[donald1]

I agree, sounds good for you, that's a years pay.
But for the student not to show up almost makes you wonder WHY. I know if I paid for a year... I'd show up as much as possible

 

[Mark Lynn]

I agree, sounds good for you, that's a years pay.
But for the student not to show up almost makes you wonder WHY. I know if I paid for a year... I'd show up as much as possible

Why I don't get that either, it does happen, I mean look at all of the people who pay for storage for their stuff and walk off and leave it. Who knows?

 

[blackxpress]

Look at all the people that pay for gym memberships and never use them. My earlier comments were not meant to suggest that all kids are lazy and soft, just that a lot of them (and a lot of adults) are. My point was that our society in general expects things to be easier than they are, which might explain why fad diets and miracle weight loss pills are so popular. Don't tell me I actually have to exercise to lose weight. Just give me a pill. That doesn't explain why all new students quit but it does explain why a lot of them do and the same rule applies to new adult students and not just to kids. I remember about ten years ago in a former dojo when we used to train outdoors in the park in the summer time. Sensei would warm us up by having us run laps. We had kids that would get out of breath and fall out because their cardio was so bad. Sensei used to lecture the parents about feeding their kids a healthy diet but a lot of them wouldn't listen. They would get off work, go through the drive through at McDonald's and call that dinner. Those particular kids didn't have any stamina because their diet sucked and the only exercise they ever got was at karate class. We did have some kids that were great athletic specimens with a strong work ethic and a high level of commitment but they were the exception to the rule.

 

[MAist25]

Look at all the people that pay for gym memberships and never use them. My earlier comments were not meant to suggest that all kids are lazy and soft, just that a lot of them (and a lot of adults) are. My point was that our society in general expects things to be easier than they are, which might explain why fad diets and miracle weight loss pills are so popular. Don't tell me I actually have to exercise to lose weight. Just give me a pill. That doesn't explain why all new students quit but it does explain why a lot of them do and the same rule applies to new adult students and not just to kids. I remember about ten years ago in a former dojo when we used to train outdoors in the park in the summer time. Sensei would warm us up by having us run laps. We had kids that would get out of breath and fall out because their cardio was so bad. Sensei used to lecture the parents about feeding their kids a healthy diet but a lot of them wouldn't listen. They would get off work, go through the drive through at McDonald's and call that dinner. Those particular kids didn't have any stamina because their diet sucked and the only exercise they ever got was at karate class. We did have some kids that were great athletic specimens with a strong work ethic and a high level of commitment but they were the exception to the rule.

Although I somewhat agree, I have to add that I also have seen a lot of the complete opposite. A lot of people quit martial arts because it isn't challenging enough for them, especially TMA. That is why you walk by an MMA gym that has been open for 3 months and they already have more students than a TMA school that has been open for years. I worked at a Muay Thai gym, and we also had a TKD program, which I taught. All of the TKD students were children, and all the adult students did Muay Thai. I was not the head instructor, so it was not up to me how we ran the TKD program, but basically, the adults did Muay Thai because it offered them a challenge that they didn't believe TKD would offer them. Eventually, the gym owner scrapped the adult TKD program altogether in order to add another MT class in the schedule.

I feel that a lot of TMA schools attract the lazy people. Not all, but the TMA schools who don't have any real physically challenging element in the training. All of the motivated students who want to work hard go to the Muay Thai, boxing, BJJ, and MMA schools, and the lazy people go to the local karate school where they don't really have to train as hard. Sorry if that offends some, but its just the ugly truth. And I'm a TMA guy, so I'm not just ripping on TMA guys. What I am saying is that we have gone soft, and therefore attract soft students. We have made training easier and fluffier so that people wont quit, but in the long run it has completely backfired on us in that now we are just attracting the lazies, and the people who want to train hard look elsewhere. And once again, I'm not saying this is all TMA schools, but a fair amount.

 

[wingchun100]

Although I somewhat agree, I have to add that I also have seen a lot of the complete opposite. A lot of people quit martial arts because it isn't challenging enough for them, especially TMA. That is why you walk by an MMA gym that has been open for 3 months and they already have more students than a TMA school that has been open for years. I worked at a Muay Thai gym, and we also had a TKD program, which I taught. All of the TKD students were children, and all the adult students did Muay Thai. I was not the head instructor, so it was not up to me how we ran the TKD program, but basically, the adults did Muay Thai because it offered them a challenge that they didn't believe TKD would offer them. Eventually, the gym owner scrapped the adult TKD program altogether in order to add another MT class in the schedule.

I feel that a lot of TMA schools attract the lazy people. Not all, but the TMA schools who don't have any real physically challenging element in the training. All of the motivated students who want to work hard go to the Muay Thai, boxing, BJJ, and MMA schools, and the lazy people go to the local karate school where they don't really have to train as hard. Sorry if that offends some, but its just the ugly truth. And I'm a TMA guy, so I'm not just ripping on TMA guys. What I am saying is that we have gone soft, and therefore attract soft students. We have made training easier and fluffier so that people wont quit, but in the long run it has completely backfired on us in that now we are just attracting the lazies, and the people who want to train hard look elsewhere. And once again, I'm not saying this is all TMA schools, but a fair amount.

Most people don't quit because it's not challenging enough . They quit once they realize how long it'll take to pull Jet Li's latest moves.


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[blackxpress]

[Q. TE=MAist25;1641246]Although I somewhat agree, I have to add that I also have seen a lot of the complete opposite. A lot of people quit martial arts because it isn't challenging enough for them, especially TMA. That is why you walk by an MMA gym that has been open for 3 months and they already have more students than a TMA school that has been open for years. I worked at a Muay Thai gym, and we also had a TKD program, which I taught. All of the TKD students were children, and all the adult students did Muay Thai. I was not the head instructor, so it was not up to me how we ran the TKD program, but basically, the adults did Muay Thai because it offered them a challenge that they didn't believe TKD would offer them. Eventually, the gym owner scrapped the adult TKD program altogether in order to add another MT class in the schedule.

I feel that a lot of TMA schools attract the lazy people. Not all, but the TMA schools who don't have any real physically challenging element in the training. All of the motivated students who want to work hard go to the Muay Thai, boxing, BJJ, and MMA schools, and the lazy people go to the local karate school where they don't really have to train as hard. Sorry if that offends some, but its just the ugly truth. And I'm a TMA guy, so I'm not just ripping on TMA guys. What I am saying is that we have gone soft, and therefore attract soft students. We have made training easier and fluffier so that people wont quit, but in the long run it has completely backfired on us in that now we are just attracting the lazies, and the people who want to train hard look elsewhere. And once again, I'm not saying this is all TMA schools, but a fair amount.[/QUOTE]

If you're comparing a good MMA gym to the local belt factory then I wholeheartedly agree. If you're comparing the typical MMA gym to a serious dojo then I could not disagree more. I've trained in dojo's (including the Kyokushin dojo where I train now) that make my Navy boot camp experience seem like a tip toe through the tulips.

 

[MAist25]

No, what I'm saying is that in today's world, traditional martial arts schools and MMA schools seem to attract completely different types of people. People who go to MMA schools are looking for a challenge, and people who go to TMA schools are looking something less so. And it isn't always because TMA schools don't provide a physical challenge (although this is the case sometimes), its just perceived that way. If people have gone to a karate or TKD school with 6 year old black belts running around, they assume that this is just the way all karate and TKD schools are, therefore they perceive these styles to be "soft" styles and would not be something they are interested in (even though the karate school in the next town over could be a hardcore school). So instead, they look for MMA/MT/BJJ/boxing gyms because those are "known" to provide more intense training.