Problems of new students

[geezer]

i had a go at that boxercise and i was laughing and just having fun cos i wasn't allowed to "hit" the pad properly LoL

thought that it was a proper joke and the class was full of middle aged mom's with nothing better to do etc..... i showed the guy i was partnered with how to hit the pad properly and he like "why do that when i'm sweating now !" --- don't think that a lot of people are actually committed to what they're doing

the other excuse i came accross was "i come here for an hour cos it's something to do inbetween picking up the kids" -- to say i was stunned is an understatement....

In all fairness Donna, you might as well accept that not everybody has the same goals in training. Plenty of people want to "play fight" and get a bit fitter at the same time. People in the professions may enjoy a bit of combative arts or self defense and fitness training, but already have most of there time spoken for between work and family. And of course they don't want to show up at the office the next day with a puffed lip and a black eye. Makes the wrong impression in the world of suits. Also, what about older folks whose bodies can't take as much punishment but who may want to participate to stay active. These folks aren't lazy. They have legitimate objectives, just different ones from yours.

I say this since I rent space at a boxing gym that caters mostly to this "wanna-be" crowd. Interestingly, the head coach used to exclusively train serious fighters, but had to change his business model to make a living. And, since he's getting older himself, he say's he finds positive value in training these more "casual" students. Since I'm turning 59 myself in a couple of days, it makes sense to me to. Honestly, I'm too busted up to go at it the old way, yet too young, at least by today's standards, to give up altogether.

 

[Transk53]

In all fairness Donna, you might as well accept that not everybody has the same goals in training. Plenty of people want to "play fight" and get a bit fitter at the same time. People in the professions may enjoy a bit of combative arts or self defense and fitness training, but already have most of there time spoken for between work and family. And of course they don't want to show up at the office the next day with a puffed lip and a black eye. Makes the wrong impression in the world of suits. Also, what about older folks whose bodies can't take as much punishment but who may want to participate to stay active. These folks aren't lazy. They have legitimate objectives, just different ones from yours.


I say this since I rent space at a boxing gym that caters mostly to this "wanna-be" crowd. Interestingly, the head coach used to exclusively train serious fighters, but had to change his business model to make a living. And, since he's getting older himself, he say's he finds positive value in training these more "casual" students. Since I'm turning 59 myself in a couple of days, it makes sense to me to. Honestly, I'm too busted up to go at it the old way, yet too young, at least by today's standards, to give up altogether.

I see you're point about the making a living. Most of us pretty much do the same, but you make time if your serious about finding yourself in the cauldron of the fighting arts. Fitness is fitness, not anything but not anything else. No disrespect geezer, but surely you must see that this must be separate from the fitness crowd? INHO of course

 

[geezer]

I see you're point about the making a living. Most of us pretty much do the same, but you make time if your serious about finding yourself in the cauldron of the fighting arts. Fitness is fitness, not anything but not anything else. No disrespect geezer, but surely you must see that this must be separate from the fitness crowd? INHO of course

Yeah, of course I see your point. And believe, me we don't cater to the "fitness crowd". In fact, we need a bit more dedication to fitness (myself included). It's just that not everybody can achieve and maintain a competitive fighter's level of fitness and toughness over a long time. So, as you get on in years, you have to look at at training differently. Maybe more emphasis on sneaky self-defense than competing?

Getting back to the OP and "the problem with new students", I guess this means balancing what the student as a "customer" wants with what they actually need to achieve to be a bona fide martial artist. My problem right now is just getting prospective students in the door to give us a try. After that we do OK. Fortunately, our club is strictly not for profit, so as long as we can pay our rent, we're good.

 

[donnaTKD]

can understand your views geezer

just that maybe it's the way i've been trained - in and out of various fight clubs cages and rings for more than 20years. i went to that place as a way to add a different dimension to my training but it was way too soft --- aerobics is amazing for keeping subtle but it's not pretending to be summat that it's not.

boxercise - you expect to be hitting things with full power cos that's how you build more and better muscle in your arms, chest and abs. also one hour or half hour a week just doesn't cut the mustard - it needs to be every other day to be of any use.

people don't want the hard graft so when they see something that's this easy they flock to it --- can understand your business model having to adapt to it and i hope that you continue to get more people through the door to keep your club "alive"

 

[Transk53]

Yeah, of course I see your point. And believe, me we don't cater to the "fitness crowd". In fact, we need a bit more dedication to fitness (myself included). It's just that not everybody can achieve and maintain a competitive fighter's level of fitness and toughness over a long time. So, as you get on in years, you have to look at at training differently. Maybe more emphasis on sneaky self-defense than competing?

Getting back to the OP and "the problem with new students", I guess this means balancing what the student as a "customer" wants with what they actually need to achieve to be a bona fide martial artist. My problem right now is just getting prospective students in the door to give us a try. After that we do OK. Fortunately, our club is strictly not for profit, so as long as we can pay our rent, we're good.

Yeah agree. Actually I neglected to tell myself that those that do compete, and someone I know, immerse themselves in it completely, well at least from one point of view, would do that. Fitness at the moment for me is my most important aspect, but trying to find a balance has been difficult. So I have swallowed my pride and joined a local gym. You're latter point is a good one and nice to hear. One of my workmates does Wing Chun, but has to do it outdoors and at the home of the Sifu now. They used to rent a community hall, but alas the same old story, not enough students and that were, even a technician, just dropped out for whatever reason. The Sifu had no choice other than to discontinue. Still the small group that is left bung a few quid and they train as a group out in the open. They even had a couple of kiddies join in, one actually came back.

 

[WaterGal]

In all fairness Donna, you might as well accept that not everybody has the same goals in training. Plenty of people want to "play fight" and get a bit fitter at the same time. People in the professions may enjoy a bit of combative arts or self defense and fitness training, but already have most of there time spoken for between work and family. And of course they don't want to show up at the office the next day with a puffed lip and a black eye. Makes the wrong impression in the world of suits. Also, what about older folks whose bodies can't take as much punishment but who may want to participate to stay active. These folks aren't lazy. They have legitimate objectives, just different ones from yours.

Definitely. I think the vast majority of people who study martial arts do so for reasons other than seriously wanting to be an elite athlete. And that's totally fine. Very few people are going to be that, no matter how hard they train, and most people don't want to be that. You can train well and do something challenging and learn good technique and not have that be the endgame. There are all kinds of benefits you can get from martial arts.

That being said, even without going at that level, there are still plenty of people who give up or don't sign up because "it's too hard", because they don't want to come to class more than once a week or get frustrated because they get their butts kicked in sparring or new techniques take them more than one day to learn. (It seems like people who trained at "McDojos" are the worst about it, much more than total novices, because they come in thinking they're already really good at martial arts.)

 

[Buka]

I think the second hardest part of training is getting yourself to go to the dojo. Once you're there, everything else is just falls into place. The hardest part - is having a dojo to go to. It's nice to think we'll drive an hour and a half just to get there, but we all know that's not reasonable.

And, to me, FUN is the biggest factor in continued training. No matter how much you suffer, how tired you get, how much of so many things is constant repetition, once it is no longer fun - the end is just around the corner. It's different with your job, no matter how much it sucks they pay you to come every day. Ain't nobody paying you to drag your butt to the dojo.

Ahhh, but the rewards! They just keep coming. I think we have to make it fun for new students to train. Or at least disguise all the damn hard work as fun. Maybe convince them the band-aids are badges or something.

 

[Transk53]

I think the second hardest part of training is getting yourself to go to the dojo. Once you're there, everything else is just falls into place. The hardest part - is having a dojo to go to. It's nice to think we'll drive an hour and a half just to get there, but we all know that's not reasonable.

And, to me, FUN is the biggest factor in continued training. No matter how much you suffer, how tired you get, how much of so many things is constant repetition, once it is no longer fun - the end is just around the corner. It's different with your job, no matter how much it sucks they pay you to come every day. Ain't nobody paying you to drag your butt to the dojo.

Ahhh, but the rewards! They just keep coming. I think we have to make it fun for new students to train. Or at least disguise all the damn hard work as fun. Maybe convince them the band-aids are badges or something.

Yeah I'll agree with that. One of the biggest issues is with repetition. A lot of students who are new would be a little intimidated. In fact I was like that once, my first TKD lesson was quite scary when I walked in and students warming up. In the end though I actually really enjoyed it but it was only one lesson. Due to several serious operations on my spine as a kid left me bereft of the balance of dexterity needed, did try again a few years later and same result. Also the prospective students who tried others and could not find one, they give up too thinking it is not for me. Well no great loss, you need determination for to keep going to find want you want, that would not many of us!

For me that is the root problem. There is too much Hollywood and not enough curiosity. For example take the obvious Yip Man films. If I recollect, Donny Yen spent some 6-8 months studying Wing Chun for eight hours a day, I believe. People will look at and surmise that they can learn Wing Chun in six months. Yip Man if a Chinese film would have been vastly to the contrary. It is just my own opinion that the movies are a big part of the problem. People think it is real. For the record, I tried Wing Chun before I even knew he was, not my fault! So really according to my sandbox, two groups, those who start a young age and progress to adulthood, and those as pro boxers, amateur boxers and boxing students like me that fall into the martial arts later in life. In between a fair amount of people who just happen across it, some stay, most leave. Wing Chun did add to mix.

 

[donnaTKD]

i went to musclehouse gym and got some really bad looks when i started using the bags people genuinely looked scared by it all

no one was sweating much and all they really used was the bikes and rowing machines and some had a half arsed attempt at some stretching and mat stuff --- wtf ?????

i know that the gyms near don't cost much but if you've made the decision to go then you should at least make an effort to get your monies worth out of it

also for those that are thinking that the 3 gyms that are near are full a lot of the time think again -- i can count on one hand the number of "regulars" that go and there are some that come occasionally but not lots of them think that gyms have just got a bad press either that or there are too many obese people that will quite happily claim disability so they can eat more and claim more.

my doctor does actually advocate people use a gym regularly to help with their health but all that seems to fall on deaf ears and as soon as people leave the surgery they sit around gassing and smoking tabs n stuff. these are the people that need a gym but won't listen to advice that's given.

 

[Transk53]

i went to musclehouse gym and got some really bad looks when i started using the bags people genuinely looked scared by it all

no one was sweating much and all they really used was the bikes and rowing machines and some had a half arsed attempt at some stretching and mat stuff --- wtf ?????

i know that the gyms near don't cost much but if you've made the decision to go then you should at least make an effort to get your monies worth out of it

also for those that are thinking that the 3 gyms that are near are full a lot of the time think again -- i can count on one hand the number of "regulars" that go and there are some that come occasionally but not lots of them think that gyms have just got a bad press either that or there are too many obese people that will quite happily claim disability so they can eat more and claim more.

my doctor does actually advocate people use a gym regularly to help with their health but all that seems to fall on deaf ears and as soon as people leave the surgery they sit around gassing and smoking tabs n stuff. these are the people that need a gym but won't listen to advice that's given.

That's because they have nothing eles to be addicted to. Substitute one for another yes, then they listen!

 

[donnaTKD]

i can understand that but they're not gunna swap tesco ready meals for a "punishing" hour in the gym unless tesco stop selling ready meals and tbh that aint gunna happen any time soon.

i'd like to see more people in the gym - it'd let me mix with more people, give me someone to talk to instead of having my headphones pugged in all the time

i'd like to see the health and community based services actively pushing people towards the gym or aerobics or pilates or circuit training - that sort of stuff - think it's the only way to make a major difference to the problems in the health system as well as making more uses of the gym facilities that are for the most part just gathering dust which i think is a real shame

i don't know how some facilities manage to stay open tbh - think that some gyms could be half the size that they are and they still wouldn't be full at any time

getting people to use the facilities is the hard part - i think that if the gym was promoted in a different way - like it's not gym but something else might work but people want to see results and that is the hard part. i don't know for sure how the likes of a tkd dojo can do it. a friend of mine owns warrington tkd across the road from warrington kickboxing and although he has a programme and stuff for tkd set up and going he's not got any new people coming through the door, he's having to offer his premises to zumba classes and pilates and stuff -- idk where it'll finish up for him..........

 

[Transk53]

i can understand that but they're not gunna swap tesco ready meals for a "punishing" hour in the gym unless tesco stop selling ready meals and tbh that aint gunna happen any time soon.

i'd like to see more people in the gym - it'd let me mix with more people, give me someone to talk to instead of having my headphones pugged in all the time

i'd like to see the health and community based services actively pushing people towards the gym or aerobics or pilates or circuit training - that sort of stuff - think it's the only way to make a major difference to the problems in the health system as well as making more uses of the gym facilities that are for the most part just gathering dust which i think is a real shame

i don't know how some facilities manage to stay open tbh - think that some gyms could be half the size that they are and they still wouldn't be full at any time

getting people to use the facilities is the hard part - i think that if the gym was promoted in a different way - like it's not gym but something else might work but people want to see results and that is the hard part. i don't know for sure how the likes of a tkd dojo can do it. a friend of mine owns warrington tkd across the road from warrington kickboxing and although he has a programme and stuff for tkd set up and going he's not got any new people coming through the door, he's having to offer his premises to zumba classes and pilates and stuff -- idk where it'll finish up for him..........

That (Zumba) is pretty indicative of what it is like down here, so I would think that it is logical to assume that would be country wide. On my cycle route home from work, I see at least three places that offer zumba and the other dance stuff linked to it, and boxercise and such like. The gyms seem to have split into two intentions. One you have Cheetah's which is the good old fashioned gym with a full suite of loose weights and what not, but really is "wysiwyg" then the others which incorporate all of the new fangled stuff like zumba, body combat and spinning. That in my opinion is not anywhere near actually getting on the saddle and going for a burn. That for me is how they promote them down here, aside from the LA Fitness and David Lloyd, which fleece your pocket.

I think there is only one dedicated Kwoon teaching White Crane, all the rest have to hire halls and what not. One of my work mates trained with Howard Mayes, who I am told is a bit of star in the TKD world. Plenty of choice, but as stated in a previous post, most of the instructors have to rely on venues staying open and be able to afford the rent. Shame really when there are quite a few empty buildings that Brighton Council could turn into community hubs. Personally I have always preferred to do weights at home, the incentive for me would a gym that has a proper bag suite, and less emphasis on robot work outs on machines, but that would probably be a nightmare for the PC brigade

 

[donnaTKD]

Plenty of choice, but as stated in a previous post, most of the instructors have to rely on venues staying open and be able to afford the rent. Shame really when there are quite a few empty buildings that Brighton Council could turn into community hubs. Personally I have always preferred to do weights at home, the incentive for me would a gym that has a proper bag suite, and less emphasis on robot work outs on machines, but that would probably be a nightmare for the PC brigade

i agree with this cos it's why i joined musclehouse - they have a full cardio / weights and bag suite with proper cushioned floor in the bag suite

think that the aerobics stuff just appeals to more people -- older people know what proper dancing is all about and they just see it as a more "athletic" version of that which is why they go. the other thing that i don't see is the younger generation in the gyms -- i'm talking the 20 - 30year olds who really do need to go and exercise.

think that marketing has a lot do with it --- i watch tv and some of the ads are pushing things like zumba but there's no MA at all. I think that maybe MA's have an image problem - they see things like karate kid and undisputed and think that if they go in to class then they'll get their butts kicked which i think is part of the reason that they stay away

 

[tshadowchaser]

I ask prospective students what they want out of the class and tell them if they are going to get what they expect. I tell parents there child will not get his/her black belt till they reach 18 and only then if the meet my standards. I tell the kids they will only get rank or reconnection if they work hard in class, practice at home, and apply their knowledge by helping others in class learn.
Yes I lose most of my students in the fist mounth , even more in the first year,but those that make it a year usually stay for a few years until home life takes them elsewhere .
OH I do not charge for testing and I test when I think the student is ready not when they think they are ready. I have in the past had adult or late teens tell me they wanted to test because they knew more than those that had rank already. Usually they ended up in the ER or at least knew before their test was over that they where surely not going to pass. I am a little more violent in testing those that think they are running things.
On the other hand I will promote those that try even if I know they will never have the ability off others.
These things I tell to people coming through the door so they know my thoughts before signing up.

As I said I lose many the first mounth but I want to know if they want to study or if they are there for some other reason.

 

[donnaTKD]

there's a piece on yahoo news at the moment about why people don't use the gym and most of that was down to hygiene and inapropriate clothing. also on the list was the other people there telling them what to do and how to use the kit.

have you ever considered that it could be the people that are already there not being to the liking of the "new" people coming through your doors ?????

i know that i won't train with certain instructors cos they don't give me the work out that i'm looking for, which is why i only train when a particular coach is available and that goes for (scotty) normal gym work and at (budgie or hooch) fight club.