Practicing Both Sides

Discussion in 'Kenpo - (EPAK) Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate S' started by cdhall, Aug 3, 2013.

  1. cdhall

    cdhall Master Black Belt

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    YEARS ago I know I was in many... discussions on the merits of practicing techniques ion both sides in Ed Parker's Kenpo.

    I can't find an old thread now to throw this gasoline on so I'll just paste here what I posted to Facebook just now and maybe in 10 years I'll come back and look and see what happened...
    :O

    Hope you all are well. I don't miss the flame wars. But I had to share this:

    I'll have to find my Martial Talk and Kenpo Talk logins... meanwhile I'll post this here. I wish I had this YEARS ago when Mr. C and I spent so much time arguing this truth.

    At 2:44 Mr. Parker states "The reason I like you to practice your techniques on both sides..."

    !?!?!!!!

    I SOOOO needed this clip once...

    I'll have to find a way to get this on my phone so I have it the next time I am with any Kenpo people who argue how much of a waste of time practicing both sides is.



    Shout out to Mr. Dennis Conatser Sr. Mr. Brian Duffy for never backing down on this assertion and passing it on to my Ambidextrious Kenpo Self.

     
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  2. Kenpo Dan

    Kenpo Dan Yellow Belt

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    Try this, Pilot clock. Point of orgin six o'clock. The Venetian blind. If executed on both sides. Wide stance raining claw. A little deeper step because the arm is a little higher and a little straighter, glancing wing if learned on the opposite side. If a deeper step or step through we use prance of the Tiger, which is really three o'clock at this point.

    Example 2. Same applies with a right one hand push. Venetian blind. Close range or wide stance your push starts with trigger salute. A little deeper step, the push lands center of chest, snapping twig if learned on the other side. A little deeper step and we have glancing salute. Mr. Parker called it a constituent system, in his encyclopedia. It Is known to a engineer as component based system with each one of his techniques has a specific purpose.

    Now if you learned them on the opposite side, you would have left hand push to your right side, left-hand push to center "already learned" snapping twig, and now glancing salute a left-hand cross push to your right side. You completed this category. Kind of because you're off set push repeating Mace needs to be learned on both sides.

    Another example, is talked about in his encyclopedia of Kenpo in the cousin techniques/mother father. And these are not taught in order, some you find before and after. This would be in order. Point of origin punching hand located chest level. Target your sternum or solar plexus. Flashing wing, short range, attacking Mace, medium-range and the third component actually found in the club technique thrust to your chest, circling the storm.. All of these are on the right side but same idea if you would've learned the club thrust as a left-hand thrust.

    As Mr. Parker said, sophisticated simplicity.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  3. Kenpo Dan

    Kenpo Dan Yellow Belt

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    Sorry, Glancing salute would be a cross push left to left, on the other side.
     
  4. Kenpo Dan

    Kenpo Dan Yellow Belt

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    Sorry, little more time.

    We can use the Venetian blind theory for your one hand grabs mirroring the way the pushes are laid out. Delayed sword, and fallen falcon squared or wide stance to your opponent, one is for a grab push, and one is for a grab pull, known as Ying Yang. Next step the mechanics of your pull or push is no longer angled to the opponents outside your 11:00 for a pull, fallen falcon, or push to your 7:00. Your opponent angle of pull or push is lone kimono push to 6:00 or a pull toward your 12 o'clock, conquering shield. These are your center of chest grabs and pushes according to your opponents alignment. In other words triggered salute is a prelude to delayed sword, or fallen falcon. As snapping twig is to lone kimono, and conquering shield.

    If you explore your to hand grabs, and include to hand chokes you will find different angles of compliance for each. If you have the original manuals where the footwork has not changed you will find a direction of compliance for each. Example. Cross of destruction has you moving to your left and then into counterclockwise motion. And falling cross has you moving to your left and then into a counter clockwise motion. The reason being the opponent is not standing square to you, fallen across he is in a right lead stance. And cross of destruction he is in a left lead stance. To feel is to know which technique to use. But if you have the original force toward your three o'clock you must then learn this on the other side. On all of your techniques even which foot the opponent is stepping in with is very important. Again see book 5 of infinite insights and chapter 7, how do you determine what technique to use. Check and see if your instructor, if he's old-timer, has the original 1987. Copyrighted manuals of Mr. Ed Parker. Third Brown is over 100 pages alone.

    We also have no stick techniques to the right side of your body, but if you learn securing the storm for the path of travel from your 9 to 3, now you learn it from 3 to 9 as a left horizontal club strike, you have it covered. Same as Defying the storm path of travel from 10:30 to 4:30 from a right-hand diagonal club strike. Now learn it on the other side diagonally down from 1:30 to 7:30 you have it for a left club strike for the appropriate angle.

    Left-hand attacks etc. that are not taught on the right side will fill in a gap if learned on the other side. Right-hand attacks etc. can fill a gap left out and left hand attacks.

    Hope this helps.
    Dan
    yes, you need to learn them on both sides, and why! Simple if you didn't learn them on both sides what would you do for a right center chest push, I'm sure a trained martial artist could come up with an answer, or you could have just learned snapping twig on the right side. Etc. etc. etc.
     
  5. Kenpo Dan

    Kenpo Dan Yellow Belt

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    Another worth while endeavor is to explore the other side of motion, as reverse motion. Using outside of securing the storm a horizontal club strike, and returning the storm opposite of. You can also have the return motion of any of the other club techniques. For instance calming the storms path of travel is 7:30 to your head on the vertical clock. So reverse motion would be from approximately 1:30 diagonally back to you.

    Or looking at it as the beginning of the technique, if it was a right backhand club from your right on a upward angle 4:30 to your head practice checking the storm not only on the other side against a left, but on the outside of his right diagonal upward. After your first outward downward block and punch you'll find circling the horizon, a descending right punch from 1:30.
     
  6. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    Return motion is half your art. :)
     
  7. Kenpo Dan

    Kenpo Dan Yellow Belt

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    Return motion is half your art. :)

    Nice, and after years of analyzing each technique I found same goes with only learning on one side.

    You can take category of round housing - if learned on both sides

    1. Circles of protection - path of travel from 10:30 to 4:30 - or 1:30 to 7:30 overhead diagonally down
    2. Sword of destruction - path of travel from 9:00 - or 3:00 horizontal
    3. Raining claw - path of travel - 6:00 to 12:00 or 6:00 to 12:00 left vertical upward
    4. Five swords - path of travel - 7:30 to 11:30 or 4:30 to 10:30 diagonally up

    And while analyzing techniques like glancing wing, and prance of the Tiger you add to the dimension of the step. These are also uppercuts which are technically roundhouses. But deals with the different depths of action, if learned on both sides. The other techniques above also have techniques that deal with the different depths of action. Basically if your targets are located on his centerline sternum solar plexus, etc. it's a short step. Knowing your targets and what weapons you use gives you a clue on the depth of a technique.

    Five swords is an interesting technique. If you have book 5 of infinite insights you'll notice that the block in the written version is to the wrist, not the biceps. The pictures on the following page do not reflect the the the written version of the technique, nor the Parker's manual. Note: same with delayed sword in the 1987 manual.

    If truly understood, the student should be able to be tested, without the instructor telling the student which technique to use. Now you have a very tangible art.
     
  8. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    I agree, just so long as you don't let yourself think it is the same. Its not.
    Sean
     
  9. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    I've trained both sides for a while now. IMO, I do see a value in it, despite some that think it isn't necessary or is just 'busy work', but to each their own. :)
     
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  10. Kenpojujitsu3

    Kenpojujitsu3 Master Black Belt

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    I got away from it and recently came back to it. Oddly, studying other arts made me reconsider it when I came to realization that Kenpo was the only one I currently train where I didn't make it a point to do both sides.
     
  11. Kenpo Dan

    Kenpo Dan Yellow Belt

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    Both sides are already taught, Forms long three, and form 4.

    Shield and Mace - ( horizontal punch ) (from 1:30) Standing naturally, step with your left foot to 11:00 into a left neutral bow, pivot to your right into a horse, right vertical outward block to the outside of opponents right arm, with a left straight punch to center of mass, his lower ribcage.

    Now learn the technique from 10:30 as a left punch. Great training for mass attack.

    But both sides is a must to understand that snapping twigs is the center push (if learned on the right) that fills in the gap between Triggered Salute and Glancing Salute. Due to depth of action.

    If you only learned left hand grabs, Delayed sword, Grab push, Falling falcon, grab pull, Dominating circles, as left hand grabs you would find you start center of front Lone kimono, center push, Conquering shield, center chest grab pull and work your way through to center of his back, Menacing Twirl. Pinning Wing, controled wing, sword and hammer, obscure claws, obscure wing, obscure sword. only the first three of these listed above are taught as right one hand grabs.
    (NOT in ORDER)

    If all taught as left one hand grabs it covers half of your body, the right side, or direction of attack, half of the floor clock, 12:00, 1:00, 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 5:00 and 6:00, push, pull, arm straight etc. The odds of this being by chance, very slim.

    In Mr Parkers 1987 journals, after Orange Belt you had to learn both sides to pass to the next belt. His writings not mine.
     
  12. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    Nobody is arguing with you, I am just saying there will always be a side you can do magic on, and a side you will suck on. :)
     
  13. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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  14. Kenpo Dan

    Kenpo Dan Yellow Belt

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    Training should be 5 to 1 on weak side. Most will not take the time.

    Busted up my right elbow back in 79, with a number of other bones, bathroom DUDY was a chore with the left, to put it nicely. But now it's a breeze.

    No arguing here, maybe different thoughts on a subject, but thats why I spend a few hours a day in study.

    Thanks for your reply.

    Dan
     
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  15. Kenpo Dan

    Kenpo Dan Yellow Belt

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    If we look at Mr Parker system as only for the right hand, this would mean left handed people need not apply.
    In Infinite Insight volume 1 chapter 8 he explains this by speaking about the man with no right hand.

    By analyzation you will find, left to right and right to left techniques for the same path of travel. Securing the storm and sword of destruction. Now if you lean this on both sides your good to go with only one hand or from left or right lead. Or right to left lead, left to left, and right to right lead. See book 3 page,124,125. Work the same path of travel from each stance listed, see what technique comes to mind.

    Free-style techniques explains this, 32 free-style techniques per belt after yellow belt to blue and green is to learn them on both sides, which is hardly ever taught, but is required in his 1987 journals. These are listed R to R or L to L, R to L and L to R.

    Three divisions of the art chapter 3 volume 1. Basics, Self-Defense, Free-style, A lot of answer come from the free-style notes in the journals.

    Dan
     
  16. chrstnkenpoist

    chrstnkenpoist White Belt

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    Although it is correct in saying that both sides of the body are worked at various times throughout the system, it is not the same as working all the techniques and forms on both sides. I don't see how anyone can argue against the profitability of training all techniques, and forms on both sides of the body. Admittedly it would be a lot of work, but like "they" say, nothing worthwhile is easy.
     
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  17. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    I wouldn't say, "Need Not Apply", I would say, "Left handers have to do what they always have to do with a right hand dominant system". :)
     
  18. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    My karate style and my TSD has always trained everything on both sides, we've always practised all kicks off both front and back leg, both sides as well. I don't think it's hard work particularly but then I've never known any different.
     
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  19. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    You may train "general techniques" on both sides, but you should train your "door guarding techniques - techniques used to finish a fight" on one side only. The reason are:

    - It's better to make one side 90% good than to make both side 45% good.
    - During life and death situation, you will only have one chance. Your 90% ability will give you better survival chance than your 45% ability. Your "strong right arm choke" can end fight much faster than a "weak right arm choke" or a "weak left arm choke".
    - You can always train different techniques on different sides. This way you will develop twice as many "effective" techniques such as right side kick and left roundhouse kick.
    - It's very common to have a good left jab and right cross. No need to have good right jab and left cross at the same time if you always keep your left side forward.
    - You just don't see people shot gun, play tennis, or write letter with both hands in the real world.
    - ...
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
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  20. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    You may, we don't. What happens if you are injured on your so called 'good' side, or you are jammed where you can't use it. Train both sides, equally well, don't really on being able to only use your 'strong' side. Two strong sides are always going to be better than one. I have a good left and right jab and a good right and left cross, elbows I can work form either side equally as I can back fist, knife hand, hammer fists etc. I don't always have my left side forward, I can switch easily and do. I'm typical of my style, most are better. Oh and my husband can shoot, write and play tennis with both hands
     
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